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I'd like to see an LP on the Japan side of someone clowning repeatedly on the AI. Grey is getting by playing with the system, I wanna see someone take the system and crack it open like a walnut.
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Dec 4, 2017 08:24
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Mantis42 posted:Is it actually possible to land troops in California? What can high level players accomplish in this game? There's no hard ban on landing troops in California. If you can get the ships there, and if they don't get sunk, and if they manage to win land combats against the defenders of LA and San Diego, you can capture it just like any other base. As other players have said, there's even a quirk in the game where capturing it will cause factories to change in a way that damages Allied aircraft production, which is of non-trivial value even if you never hold the cities for any extended length of time. Of course, the lack of a hard ban still means that it's a practical impossibility to run the gauntlet of Allied armed forces to get there. In test games intended to trigger the massive Allied reinforcement (lead by Patton), the tester had to move a lot of American units out of the way to facilitate it. Even if you got the troops there, you couldn't be sure that they'd be able to beat the various Forts and state-side troops anyway. Japanese players have managed to trigger the 1943 auto-victory condition, scoring 4x more points than the Allies and immediately ending the game, usually by going hard on Australia and India. It's somewhat easier to execute using the "Hakko Ichiu" variant scenario, which gives Japan a slight leg-up without going full Turtledove on ahistorical bonuses. The key is exploiting the gently caress out of Japan's 6-month landing bonus to make amphibious assaults as far east as Sri Lanka and as far south as Hobart, then eat the Allies from the outside-in. RZApublican posted:What's Niipon Panzer Corps? In the original War in the Pacific (not-Admiral's Edition), armored forces were a lot stronger and a lot faster. As the Japanese player, it was possible to pool all your armor together and roll across China in a giant Katamari Damacy-esque doomstack. Further, it was even possible to do this to the Soviet Union. A Japanese auto-victory would not only involve racing for Christchurch and Karachi, but also crossing the Amur and capturing Vladivostok in 1942. gradenko_2000 fucked around with this message at 08:27 on Dec 4, 2017 |
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Dec 4, 2017 08:25
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Am I miss remembering that they did it and found while an American doomstack spawns, it was without Patton?
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Dec 4, 2017 08:51
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algebra testes posted:Am I miss remembering that they did it and found while an American doomstack spawns, it was without Patton? Patton's in the game, but the AI may have changed the commander. Side note: In War Plan Orange (a mod for the original WitP that takes place in an alternate 1920s), you can select Patton as a regular commander since he was historically the commanding officer of the Hawaiian Division during the mid-1920s.
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Dec 4, 2017 10:37
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I've read the first turn guides and the newbie AAR and I still am pretty sure I would be too overwhelmed by the actual game to have any fun with it. 
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Dec 4, 2017 15:20
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FYI there is a specific grognard games thread full of people who have played WitP if any of you guys who just bought it have any questions (you will) https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3543909
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Dec 4, 2017 15:28
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I ran a test of landing Japanese troops in San Francisco in Grey's previous aborted version of this thread. I apparently don't have archives though so I'm having trouble finding it.
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Dec 4, 2017 16:13
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TheDemon posted:crazy fuel trains that give the KB a completely ahistorical reach even farther than Pearl and the Indian Ocean Raid I would like to know more.
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Dec 4, 2017 17:09
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This was probably a bad decision but I picked up WitP during the sale. Out of curiosity, how long does the average turn take?
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Dec 4, 2017 17:22
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Bold Robot posted:This was probably a bad decision but I picked up WitP during the sale. Out of curiosity, how long does the average turn take? Based on my past experience with Grey Hunter threads, it averages one a day.
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Dec 4, 2017 17:33
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Tiler Kiwi posted:I'd like to see an LP on the Japan side of someone clowning repeatedly on the AI. Grey is getting by playing with the system, I wanna see someone take the system and crack it open like a walnut. I think it was Steineroken (sorry that's probably a horrendous mangling of the username) who was doing an LP but gave up pretty early in because he got tired of smashing the AI.
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Dec 4, 2017 17:41
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Found it! Thread 1 (archives needed): https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3576759 Thread 2: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3704111 Also I'm bad at spelling "steinrokkan"
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Dec 4, 2017 17:52
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Bold Robot posted:This was probably a bad decision but I picked up WitP during the sale. Out of curiosity, how long does the average turn take? Turn 1 takes between 3 and 8 hours depending on how complete you want to be. Other turns take in the ballpark of 10-30 minutes depending on how many things you want to do. You definitely want to start with the Coral Sea scenario first to get used to driving around boats and fighting, then Operation Buccaneer to practice amphib assault, then do Guadalcanal for a several month campaign that abstracts theater-wide logistics, then try the GC. Coral Sea takes like 15 minutes total to play so try a couple times, and Buccaneer is short as well.
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Dec 4, 2017 18:01
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Zip! posted:Found it! cool, also i didnt know this game used a WEGO system, which made me go "oh poo poo hahaha gently caress" as i thought about the AI implications for a second e: its probably actually not a harder problem than alternating turns, but my apprentice-level hunch is that its more a complicated process trying to gauge an opponents actions and their potential impact on your plan without getting into weird donkey mind problems as opposed to guessing an opponents optimal response to a static state Tiler Kiwi fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Dec 4, 2017 |
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Dec 4, 2017 18:09
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Found it!pthighs posted:A large convoy slips from its moorings in the Truk lagoon before dawn on
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Dec 4, 2017 22:13
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I've always wondered why those particular divisions spawning. I assume historically they were the "furthest along" in terms of activation and were most likely to be in fighting shape.
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Dec 5, 2017 00:24
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Tiler Kiwi posted:I'd like to see an LP on the Japan side of someone clowning repeatedly on the AI. Grey is getting by playing with the system, I wanna see someone take the system and crack it open like a walnut. Not sure about Nippon, but on the US side it's comically easy to clown the Japanese AI. Just invade Hokkaido in 42 by sneaking a large invasion force up along the Aleutians, 3 divisions were enough to easily take the island. And from there on you only need to ferry supplies and more planes up there.
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Dec 5, 2017 01:48
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Is the East Bay on the same hex as San Fransisco since the shipbuilding was distributed pretty well in both?
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Dec 5, 2017 02:57
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Saint Celestine posted:I would like to know more. * Multi-day Pearl Harbor is rather self-explanatory. Don't send the KB away after Dec 7 and just keep bombing Pearl. Hunting down the USN carriers on their way back from Pearl is also a thing that you can do (unless you ban it with houserules). This only works because you know where the game places them based on historical data. * Another debate is whether you'll send the KB to the Philippines instead of Pearl Harbor on Dec 7. The idea is that killing off all the subs berthed in Manila is going to be more useful in the long run than trying to kill battleships. * The Mersing Gambit is when you land much farther south on the Malayan Peninsula than the Japanese historically did, at Mersing. This lets you cut off Singapore much sooner, since you only have to take two hexes to block off every Commonwealth unit that's north of Singapore. And like hunting down American carriers, you can only do this because you know that Mersing is not heavily defended based on historical data. Sidebar posted:There's a similar trick in War in the East called the Lvov Gambit, where Army Group South can do a very specific set of precise movements to pocket the entire Kiev Front on turn 1 that only works because the deployment of the Russian Army on Jun 22 1941 is precisely known. * Fortress Palembang is an Allied tactic wherein you withdraw as many units in the Philippines, Malaya and DEI as possible, and sent them all to camp-out in Palembang. It can't be completely isolated because Palembang both produces its own oil for its refineries, and the refineries turn the oil into fuel and supplies. It can support an airbase by which you can operate land-based air to sink any attempts to land near it, and even if the Japanese player somehow manages to take it, stocking it with Engineers means that they blow up the refineries before surrendering, which takes months to rebuild and cripples Japan's production in the meantime. The AI isn't really capable of handling this tactic, but a human can. Fortress Singapore and Fortress Rangoon are similar tactics, but of varying usefulness since they don't have the natural supplies that Palembang has. * The crazy fuel train being referred to is that the game probably overestimates the underway replenishment capabilities of the IJN, such that you can keep the KB sailing around for months as long as you have enough tankers running with them. * The last "trick" I'll mention was that one game where the IJN player used the fact that Japan has multiple level 9 airfields available in the Home Islands to stage massive 500+ plane air strikes against American fleets. There were so many planes that the game's air combat model glitched out and skipped all the CAP engagements past a certain point, which let the strikers get through unharmed and inflict hit after hit after hit on the carriers and battleships. It prompted one of the developers to go into the code and patch it to lift the arbitrary limit on the number of CAP engagements.
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Dec 5, 2017 03:57
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A high-level Japanese player can pre-position replenishment task forces hidden weird empty ocean spots in advance of raids, move the KB between them, and suddenly there are three hundred planes in the middle of the Cape Town<>Australia convoy route and thirty merchants end up on the bottom. Suddenly the Sydney yards where Force Z remnants are repairing get pasted. Rather than the historical move out, move back to base to resupply, move out, that Grey Hunter does, you have these operations that rely pre-positioned logistics, which means your carriers (and other fleets) can appear in the most unexpected places. Combined with a good understanding of what exactly a port needs to have to replenish weapons, this means the KB slowly teleports around the map wreaking havoc until the Allied player gets a force that can both match and catch it. Usually this is only used for the first bit of the game, or if the Japanese is pursuing auto-victory, as the KB gets preserved/reserved for defending and most Allied players try to accelerate the invasion schedule so they have less forces available to them.
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Dec 5, 2017 04:14
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You used to be able to wreck the AI in WITW with invasion spam. Basically you d-day as per usual. But with Patton's Army that normally ferries over to France after you secure the beach, you prepare a second invasion and Invade around Amsterdam and blast across to Berlin spreading the Germans super thin. And win the war by Christmas 44 by US troops in Berlin. They patched out I am afraid.
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Dec 5, 2017 04:30
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   Another battleship bombardment mission goes off. As you can see in the bottom left, the other two burning carriers have sunk.  I sweep into Jaluit with the remaining escort of the Kiddo Butai. We trade fire for a time.  Planes from our new stocked airbases of Kwajalien and Rio-Namaur make their first attack run, but they lack numbers.  Our planes once again ignore the wounded carriers in favour of the transports.  The Americans do not make this mistake.  We get lucky in the afternoon.  They have an escort carrier down south, but that's not my worry at the moment.  Oh god, they have another one here as well!   I have to report the Battle of Jaluit has been a failure. Not through any real fault of my tactical planning, but due to hosed up AI target allocation – They seem much more willing to shoot cargo ships than hunt down enemy carriers! This has caused me to take hits to another of my fleet carriers.  To make matters worse, I learn that the battleships blew up the fortress at Jaluit! This is a total disaster of a day!
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Dec 5, 2017 05:03
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So that's the end of the LP, right? Since Grey admitted a defeat in battle a more zealous junior officer assassinates him and takes over, right?
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Dec 5, 2017 05:10
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Am that reading that battle report between Nagato and the Mobile group correctly? 21 shell hits by 6" and 5" guns against the big battleship? 
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Dec 5, 2017 05:59
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Night10194 posted:So that's the end of the LP, right? Since Grey admitted a defeat in battle a more zealous junior officer assassinates him and takes over, right? Grey Jr will lead us to victory! Banzai!
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Dec 5, 2017 06:02
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4 December 1943 The Japanese escort carrier Chuyo is torpedoed 260 miles off Yokosuka by USS Sailfish. Among the dead were 20 of 21 prisoners of war captured from USS Sculpin, Sailfish's sister.
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Dec 5, 2017 06:09
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and there goes my lucky ship, the Zuiho. rip little japanese cvl, you were never gonna survive the war anyways
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Dec 5, 2017 06:11
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Night10194 posted:So that's the end of the LP, right? Since Grey admitted a defeat in battle a more zealous junior officer assassinates him and takes over, right? Well, no, he has to assign the surviving ships to out-of the way islands and not report this defeat to the army.
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Dec 5, 2017 06:13
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Grey will be fine, he just needs to not take any flights on lightly escorted G4Ms in the near future.
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Dec 5, 2017 06:28
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I'd ask that you fall on your sword, but unfortunately through the vagaries of the Japanese industry mechanics there are none. We do have 3.2 million shovels in the pool though
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Dec 5, 2017 06:42
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Is there any chance of reloading an earlier save from before the battle happened and starting over from there? Having any measure of success in this game grind to a halt because the AI's algorithm is lovely with selecting targets is a really bad way to end our admittedly ahistorical string of victories on. I'm probably alone here but having it all come down to weird programming on the part of the developers kinda sucks the fun out of it.
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Dec 5, 2017 07:11
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RZApublican posted:Is there any chance of reloading an earlier save from before the battle happened and starting over from there? Having any measure of success in this game grind to a halt because the AI's algorithm is lovely with selecting targets is a really bad way to end our admittedly ahistorical string of victories on. I'm probably alone here but having it all come down to weird programming on the part of the developers kinda sucks the fun out of it. He's already done better than Japan historically. Japan was never going to win this war, you'd just be delaying the inevitable.
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Dec 5, 2017 07:16
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RZApublican posted:Is there any chance of reloading an earlier save from before the battle happened and starting over from there? Having any measure of success in this game grind to a halt because the AI's algorithm is lovely with selecting targets is a really bad way to end our admittedly ahistorical string of victories on. I'm probably alone here but having it all come down to weird programming on the part of the developers kinda sucks the fun out of it. The shittiness in selecting targets is actually more or less historical. During Midway, most of the American groups got split up due to the length of time between sorties and many aircraft followed the wrong headings and ran out of fuel searching for their targets. The Japanese had less difficulty navigating, but they made strikes of questionable value against the island itself. All these fuckups were on a tactical level and totally out of the hands of high command.
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Dec 5, 2017 07:49
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The Japanese launched a full strike on an oiler during Coral Sea, due to misidentifying it.
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Dec 5, 2017 07:55
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Plus, even if we were to reroll the turn, there's the chance that the larger fleet carriers would bear most of the damage. Right now they've lost aircraft and taken a few hits, but barring a major damage control failure they'll escape destruction.
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Dec 5, 2017 08:16
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RZApublican posted:Is there any chance of reloading an earlier save from before the battle happened and starting over from there? Having any measure of success in this game grind to a halt because the AI's algorithm is lovely with selecting targets is a really bad way to end our admittedly ahistorical string of victories on. I'm probably alone here but having it all come down to weird programming on the part of the developers kinda sucks the fun out of it. And at this point it could be a failure of naval search, not target allocation. You can’t strike enemy carriers if you don’t know where they are, and at this point it’s possible that the Allied carriers have now retreated out of search range or are in weaknesses in the IJN search pattern.
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Dec 5, 2017 08:31
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sullat posted:Well, no, he has to assign the surviving ships to out-of the way islands and not report this defeat to the army. If he had put all his battleships on tracks and given them to the army, this war would be over by now
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Dec 5, 2017 08:38
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This battle was always a when, not an if. Keeping a save game of this date would be handy, but we should play it as it lies.
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Dec 5, 2017 08:53
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Solid points, all around. Shame though, it would have been cool to see how things might have gone differently. Do you have a save from before the battle that you could put up for download, Grey? It's pretty unlikely that I or anyone else here could keep the Kido Butai riding high on victory, but it'd be a lot of fun to try.
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Dec 5, 2017 09:11
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The real life Midway outcome is the result of the US save scumming ten thousand times
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Dec 5, 2017 09:34
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