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remen has a video about professionalism and how it was a nerf to quantity, which he no longer usually takes first. large force limits are now a double edged sword...
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Dec 4, 2017 15:27
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| # ? May 23, 2024 21:09 |
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When people tell you to constantly drill, how are they managing that financially? Is that simply a case of being rich enough to have a stack doing it at any one time because other then that, wouldn't it gently caress up your economy?
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Dec 4, 2017 15:36
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oddium posted:remen has a video about professionalism and how it was a nerf to quantity, which he no longer usually takes first. large force limits are now a double edged sword... People take quantity? first?
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Dec 4, 2017 15:40
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Firebatgyro posted:People take quantity? first? It's pretty vital in getting some weaker starts off the ground. Can't really expand too easily if your force limit is stuck at 10.
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Dec 4, 2017 15:42
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I don't have the expansion with drilling yet, but lemme tell you, it sounds like an awful idea.
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Dec 4, 2017 15:44
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Firebatgyro posted:People take quantity? first? quantity is really good cheap units more units more cheap units good policies too. i don't know why everyone here hates it
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Dec 4, 2017 15:44
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^^^^ because losing tons of lovely troops wont win the war, you're better of using good troops and taking loans for mercs It never made sense to me since Offensive/Defensive/Quality are all superior to me, in some cases I'd even pick Aristocratic ideas over Quantity. Literally my only reason for Quantity ever was the extra colonist pre nerf.
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Dec 4, 2017 15:44
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in my Rajput Reich run i was in a perpetual state of endgame wars, fielding and reinforcing ~220 units. never dipped below 60k manpower, never suffered a deficit from reinforcing because cheaper units means cheaper maintenance and reinforce cost. quantity is good, to me less does more with quality/offensive/mercs but you're going to run out of money or manpower or both
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Dec 4, 2017 15:54
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oddium posted:in my Rajput Reich run i was in a perpetual state of endgame wars, fielding and reinforcing ~220 units. never dipped below 60k manpower, never suffered a deficit from reinforcing because cheaper units means cheaper maintenance and reinforce cost. Its not that quantity is bad its just that that the other Mil idea groups are so good. I've been experimenting with going defensive as my first Mil group because the + morale is pretty bonkers.
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Dec 4, 2017 16:26
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doubling down on army qualify is only "necessary" to fight a handful of AI nations, normally better composition, positioning, tech, or abusing an alliance will carry you. and quantity is vital for fighting on multiple fronts, or beefing yourself up so you can get a better ally and not get declared on. interesting that drilling nerfs quantity though, I'd have thought it'd buff it since it gives you more of a manpower pool to fall back on.
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Dec 4, 2017 16:56
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Koramei posted:
Professionalism gain is based on the % of your force limit that you are drilling and the final idea in quantity gives your +50% max limit Its not that big a deal because between events and hiring generals you can max out your professionalism without drilling as long as you don't go too crazy with mercs.
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Dec 4, 2017 17:19
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Here's an annoying little nut: As Naples, I have support from Castile and The Papal State (rivaled to Aragon) and am about to declare independence when TPS excommunicates Aragon. This causes Naples to get excommunicated as well, which causes TPS to break their support for me.
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Dec 4, 2017 19:24
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Might just be the current game that's been going great but the AI hasn't filled its provinces with useless docks and other junk buildings lately. It is pretty drat awesome! I've hardly had to demolish any buildings at all. 
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Dec 4, 2017 20:36
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Poil posted:Might just be the current game that's been going great but the AI hasn't filled its provinces with useless docks and other junk buildings lately. It is pretty drat awesome! I've hardly had to demolish any buildings at all. They fixed the AI so it actually builds poo poo which makes sense now. Which also makes the AI ungodly rich, but there you go.
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Dec 4, 2017 20:51
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RabidWeasel posted:They fixed the AI so it actually builds poo poo which makes sense now. Which also makes the AI ungodly rich, but there you go. I was just getting back into the game and wanted to ask, are any of the early economic buildings considered worth paying for, compared to the ROI of just conquering more provinces? Second, what's the thread's opinion on developing your provinces for purely economic purposes, i.e. disregarding institutions and manpower? I see a strong case for the latter as, say, a small HRE minor were technology won't be a problem but actually affording advisors could be, but for the first I would probably prefer to stockpile an infinite treasury for future mercenaries...
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Dec 4, 2017 21:19
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Cheen posted:Here's an annoying little nut: hey........ you don't have to introduce yourself in your posts....     haha just kdding
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Dec 4, 2017 21:22
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Developing provinces is fine if you have the extra MP sitting around anyway. It's also stupid not to if you have a gold province. Still better to wait until an institution spawns if possible so you can kill two birds with one stone and add some progress while increasing income.
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Dec 4, 2017 21:24
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anti_strunt posted:I was just getting back into the game and wanted to ask, are any of the early economic buildings considered worth paying for, compared to the ROI of just conquering more provinces? It's not normally a "war or build" choice; there's usually other things keeping you from endless conquest, and for that matter, warring often gets you even more money rather than costing you, since you can punch it out of the AI. If you're in a position where you're just scraping by while surrounded by massively more powerful opponents and every war will put you into crippling debt then you should obviously prioritize other things, but that's a minority of starts and only tends to last for a century or less at that. My rule of thumb is temple / workshop on anything that pays more than .12 a month unless I'm poor as hell, and market on every (helpful) center of trade. The thing about buildings though is even when they, on paper, will take a long-rear end time to pay off, they'll still factor into other things like how strong the AI judges you to be, how big your loans are, how much money cash events can give you and so on. Different people have different outlooks and if you're minmaxing a world conquest then often you do just want even more mercenaries, but in normal play I think the money is more valuable invested in your country than sitting in a war chest. If you're an OPM (or similarly tiny and destitute) then developing can be valuable economically ahead of some other uses for points, but in every other situation it should be low on your list. Develop when you're about to hit point caps, which will actually be pretty often in situations like your HRE minor example. e: oh yeah, gold is another exception.
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Dec 4, 2017 21:39
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anti_strunt posted:I was just getting back into the game and wanted to ask, are any of the early economic buildings considered worth paying for, compared to the ROI of just conquering more provinces? If you're going full efficiency expansionist probably not, but I usually build some mosques / barracks on good provinces (like 5+ tax/manpower respectively) even in the early game. I mean if you're being as efficient as possible your early game should be laser focused on getting as many gold provinces as quickly as possible, usually from breaking into Africa. This will pay itself back much more quickly than a few buildings. 1 unit of gold produced per month in a 0 autonomy province = 40 ducats per year. Other trade goods have their value given in annual output so this is 10 times more than from a silk province in 1444 (though that generates trade income also, this is a decent way of comparing relative value) RabidWeasel fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Dec 4, 2017 |
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Dec 4, 2017 21:56
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if i have enough bird mana i'll develop 3+ ducat goods, especially cloth (which ends up at 4.1 or something halfway through the game and has -10% development in the province). developing five times gives you +1 goods produced, that's the equivalent of a manufactory !!
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Dec 4, 2017 21:57
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Gems and gold are usually in hard to develop provinces but once you get universities it's a good idea to build those in a gem province, use the encourage development edict, make the merchant guilds loyal with high influence, and abuse any other development bonus you can get to pump as much diplo dev as possible there. By the time you get universities you don't really need to develop for institutions anymore so it's best to focus on cotton/farmland provinces first for institutions and then gem/gold/silk etc provinces later or whenever you can get the best discounts such as from events. Don't develop in tropical provinces if you can avoid it, the terrain might look ok but the tropical status will make you pay for it.
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Dec 4, 2017 22:08
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Why gems? There are other goods priced at 4, and gems get a bit penalty that hits their price later in the game that e.g. ivory doesn't.
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Dec 4, 2017 22:14
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I just enjoy building up my provinces.  Currently in my Papal game I've built a cathedral in pretty much every single province, even in non-stated crap desert ones. At 0.02 a month or whatever it's going to take a while to pay back but who cares? I could build them out of solid gold if I wanted to.
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Dec 4, 2017 22:27
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I like pumping up development because seeing the little building graphics grow make me happy.
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Dec 4, 2017 22:30
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Funky Valentine posted:I like pumping up development because seeing the little building graphics grow make me happy. Yessss. This is most satisfying in Italy or Germany or somewhere else with a bunch of tiny provinces, when the urban sprawl starts to overwhelm the borders and all the land becomes an ungodly pre-automobile megacity spanning whole states
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Dec 4, 2017 22:38
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Reman I think missed an important detail on Supply Depots; they seem to massively improve reinforcement rates, and they apply to the entire area, not just the province that they're built in. It's common for me to have multiple siege stacks working on forts with 1-2 actual armies sitting right behind them, in order to refill garrisons and avoid needless attrition damage. A supply depot in the area not only refills those stacks faster but can also reduce attrition damage when the siege stack is larger than the supply limit of the province (which happens surprisingly often, but is especially common in the middle east and africa)Firebatgyro posted:Professionalism gain is based on the % of your force limit that you are drilling and the final idea in quantity gives your +50% max limit And on the flip side of that now you have the ability to convert professionalism into a ton of manpower. So Quantity makes it harder to build professionalism with drilling, and being able to convert mil points into manpower at will makes the larger manpower pool a little less good
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Dec 4, 2017 23:07
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QuarkJets posted:Reman I think missed an important detail on Supply Depots; they seem to massively improve reinforcement rates, and they apply to the entire area, not just the province that they're built in. quote:A supply depot in the area not only refills those stacks faster but can also reduce attrition damage when the siege stack is larger than the supply limit of the province (which happens surprisingly often, but is especially common in the middle east and africa)
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Dec 4, 2017 23:15
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I think he's too quick to dismiss drilling too. He pretty much exclusively plays world conquest-style, and I can see how it's kinda poo poo in that, but 10% extra discipline in the early (i.e. most important and decisive) battles in a war is actually a big difference, especially if you're not constantly moving your armies everywhere otherwise. I'm pretty blown away by how crap the final morale bonus is though, I thought that seemed like it might actually be significant.
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Dec 4, 2017 23:22
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Developing provinces is fun but it's even more fun when you manage to swing enough development cost reduction modifiers where it starts getting really cheap. Though I do wish development was a bit more organic, especially as a non-European you will spend most of the game with a couple of megacities you developed to pop instituitons and the rest of your provinces are like dirt farms in comparison.Koramei posted:I think he's too quick to dismiss drilling too. He pretty much exclusively plays world conquest-style, and I can see how it's kinda poo poo in that, but 10% extra discipline in the early (i.e. most important and decisive) battles in a war is actually a big difference, especially if you're not constantly moving your armies everywhere otherwise. I mean the issue with drilling is the opportunity cost, in both time and money. I certainly agree there. If you have long periods of peace where you have excess cash, go wild I guess.
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Dec 4, 2017 23:26
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So, funny thing I've noticed: Ottomans can't form Arabia but if they specifically culture swap to Yemeni they should be able to form Yemen just fine and THEN form Arabia.
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Dec 4, 2017 23:30
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Imo highly developed provinces should give some kind of slow pulse event where you can choose a dev point in an adjacent province or something
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Dec 4, 2017 23:31
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yeah like cities attract serfs but the opposite
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Dec 4, 2017 23:34
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The turfs belong on their serfs
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Dec 4, 2017 23:35
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Thanks for the replies! Playing outside of Europe I hadn't really thought about the ballooning city graphics, should definitely try a game of turning the HRE into Megacity One...
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Dec 5, 2017 00:07
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oddium posted:if i have enough bird mana don't do that here please
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Dec 5, 2017 00:19
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yeah it's diplo mana, not bird mana geeze
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Dec 5, 2017 00:34
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A while after the Enlightenment spawned I realized I still had a starting merchant in the Genoa node, and I was at 99% trade power. 
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Dec 5, 2017 00:38
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Diplomatic Monarch Points
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Dec 5, 2017 00:46
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RabidWeasel posted:I mean the issue with drilling is the opportunity cost, in both time and money. I certainly agree there. If you have long periods of peace where you have excess cash, go wild I guess. He's not saying it's just opportunity cost (which I think is mostly down to WC strats anyway- the ~2 years to fully drill at full professionalism is a fairly normal amount of prep-time before a significant war when you're not trying to smother the whole world at once anyway), he's saying the bonus its self gets attrition'd away before it's meaningful, which I don't really agree with. By the time you're gonna be settling down on a siege, you could well have had the most significant battles already. It depends a bit on the geography for the fort layout, if there aren't endless reinforcing stacks and so on, but there are ways to mitigate that and preserve your drill anyway. Also other things like having a reserve stack drill while you have a forward stack on siege duty and so on.
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Dec 5, 2017 00:48
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Mercantilism points. 
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Dec 5, 2017 00:52
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