|
Lightning Knight posted:So, Bernie is not my first choice for 2020 if I could pick anyone, but I don't think this is a good argument for him to not run (though it might be a good argument for why he might not get the nom). If "some people don't like me" was a justification for not running no one would run. I generally vote D just as a vote against R more so than any actual desire to vote for most of the democrat candidates. But if Hillary runs again and the Democratic leadership doesn't kidnap her and lock her in a basement to ensure she doesn't win the nomination I'll probably go back to voting independent. I'd probably vote for Bernie, but I wouldn't be happy about it. A 90 year old just isn't a sane candidate. Any of the rest of the current probables I'd at least be semi excited about.
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 21:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 03:58 |
|
|
Azhais posted:I generally vote D just as a vote against R more so than any actual desire to vote for most of the democrat candidates. But if Hillary runs again and the Democratic leadership doesn't kidnap her and lock her in a basement to ensure she doesn't win the nomination I'll probably go back to voting independent. Oh I'll clarify, my first choice is Keith Ellison. I'm just saying that I'm not on the "Bernie should definitely run in 2020 and is the best possible candidate" train for a variety of reasons (primarily I want younger people to take over however), but "some conservative Dems don't like him" isn't a good reason for him to not run imo.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 21:40
|
|
|
Azhais posted:I'd probably vote for Bernie, but I wouldn't be happy about it. A 90 year old just isn't a sane candidate. He would be 79 in 2020, not 90. Hillary is only 6 years younger than him.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 21:40
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:You just quoted a post that was talking about deficits as a good thing and citing full employment as an explicit ideal goal of government and unironically called the person making it a neoliberal shill, I think you may not be reading the post well. He's using the textbook neoliberal explanation of why deficits are a good thing - that being that they result in private sector financial assets. Like you do realize debt-financing and the idea the government should run a forever-deficit is one of the major pillars of neoliberal thought, right? GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Dec 4, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 21:41
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:You just quoted a post that was talking about deficits as a good thing and citing full employment as an explicit ideal goal of government and unironically called the person making it a neoliberal shill, I think you may not be reading the post well. Full employment in an age of increasing automation does seem like a very neoliberal view at this point. There aren't going to be enough jobs for full employment. We need to be thinking UBI, not jobs.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 21:42
|
|
|
GlyphGryph posted:He's using the textbook neoliberal explanation of why deficits are a good thing - that being that they result in private sector financial assets. botany is also using the textbook explanation of the neo-chartalists but it’s pretty true that you wouldn’t know them because you’re bad at economic theory
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 21:44
|
|
|
stone cold posted:I think the primary purpose of the government is to increase the size of the economy above all else. A rising tide lifts all boats.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 21:45
|
|
|
WampaLord posted:He would be 79 in 2020, not 90. I mis remembered him as being 86 not 76 right now, either way I don't want an 80 year old either.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 21:46
|
|
|
If the talk is likely primary candidates and not a wish list, I think you've got a strong chance of Kamala Harris and/or Kirsten Gillibrand making a play. Warren honestly seems to not want it. Sanders and Biden are seriously too old. Biden probably could have gotten the nomination if he ran last cycle, but he passed on it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 21:46
|
|
|
WampaLord posted:Full employment in an age of increasing automation does seem like a very neoliberal view at this point. My issue with UBI is I don’t think it’ll ever be as good as having a job. You’re not gonna get 70k per year on UBI. Best case scenario it puts the bulk of the population on a subsistence wage.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 21:48
|
|
|
WampaLord posted:Full employment in an age of increasing automation does seem like a very neoliberal view at this point. I agree that we'll have to shift away from full employment to things like UBI in the future, but I'm not sure I agree that this makes full employment as a target for government economic policy a neoliberal position. Neoliberalism is about not having the government intervene in the market as much as is possible.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 21:49
|
|
|
Azhais posted:I mis remembered him as being 86 not 76 right now, either way I don't want an 80 year old either. But you were fine with a 70 year old? I don't get the arbitrary age thing. We have VPs for a reason. Kraftwerk posted:My issue with UBI is I don’t think it’ll ever be as good as having a job. You’re not gonna get 70k per year on UBI. Best case scenario it puts the bulk of the population on a subsistence wage. That's sure as poo poo better than we have now. I'm not expecting $70k a year, I would just like the ability to live in my country when the jobs disappear. Lightning Knight posted:I agree that we'll have to shift away from full employment to things like UBI in the future, but I'm not sure I agree that this makes full employment as a target for government economic policy a neoliberal position. "In an age of increasing automation" was the key phrase there that you seem to have missed. The government needs to keep up with the times, not be running on solutions that would have been good 20 years ago.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 21:49
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:You just quoted a post that was talking about deficits as a good thing and citing full employment as an explicit ideal goal of government and unironically called the person making it a neoliberal shill, I think you may not be reading the post well. "Full Employment" is a neo-liberal/free-market goal. Zero Employment is what we should be striving for. Kraftwerk posted:My issue with UBI is I don’t think it’ll ever be as good as having a job. You’re not gonna get 70k per year on UBI. Best case scenario it puts the bulk of the population on a subsistence wage. How is that a bad thing? If you don't want to or don't have the ability to work, you won't die and you will still be able to function in the economy. If you want more money, feel free to work for it. ate shit on live tv fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Dec 4, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 21:50
|
|
|
WampaLord posted:But you were fine with a 70 year old? For me, personally, it's less about "they're too old" (though the president dying in office is always a serious concern the older they get) and more about "I want a new generation of political leaders." ate poo poo on live tv posted:"Full Employment" is a neo-liberal/free-market goal. Zero Employment is what we should be striving for.  Hm. Seems legit. I am convinced.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 21:51
|
|
|
Kraftwerk posted:My issue with UBI is I don’t think it’ll ever be as good as having a job. You’re not gonna get 70k per year on UBI. Best case scenario it puts the bulk of the population on a subsistence wage. That's. . . probably ok though. Like, a UBI doesn't have to be as good as having a good job. It just has to be enough to provide a minimum standard of living so that laborers can always strike / quit and fall back on the UBI if the terms offered by employers become evil.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 21:53
|
|
|
I honestly don't know what the motivation for people wanting full-employment is. My question is "why?" Why is "full-employment" desirable?
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 21:53
|
|
|
WampaLord posted:But you were fine with a 70 year old? At no point was I fine with Hillary if that's what you keep going back to. She was a terrible candidate in 2016 and would be a disastrous candidate in 2020 after 4 years of relentless WHAT ABOUT HILLARY. I was willing to vote for her last time just because of Trump, but if she's the literal best thing the democratic party can come up with next time I'm going back to full nothing matters and voting my heart, not just making protest votes. Lightning Knight posted:For me, personally, it's less about "they're too old" and more about "I want a new generation of political leaders." And yes, this.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 21:54
|
|
|
between this and how mad you were that people thought nazis were monsters buddy i think your epistemes are all outta whack
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 21:56
|
|
|
WampaLord posted:"In an age of increasing automation" was the key phrase there that you seem to have missed. The government needs to keep up with the times, not be running on solutions that would have been good 20 years ago. No I understand that, I'm saying that neoliberalism is (in theory) a coherent economic model and theory and things don't "become neoliberal" because they're outmoded, it was more of a semantic quibble than anything. ate poo poo on live tv posted:I honestly don't know what the motivation for people wanting full-employment is. My question is "why?" Why is "full-employment" desirable? Because A) so long as people need jobs to live the most people having jobs as possible is good, B) it increases the political power of labor.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 21:56
|
|
|
WampaLord posted:But you were fine with a 70 year old? Old people don't think as well as younger people and have difficulties adjusting to new ideas and changing circumstances. This is why all the Boomers still think Millenials are just whining about college costs because why don't they just get a summer job? Most of the political caste candidates have this in a bad way: it's part of why Hillary was never able to adapt her strategies to the new reality, it's part of why Trump is still mentally locked in the 1980's, and even Bernie exhibits it sometimes with his "the answer to all problems, including racial problems, is to destroy capitalism" thinking. Note that this isn't the same thing as dementia, it's different, but also a common symptom of aging. Political office should have a mandatory retirement age no older than 70.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 21:57
|
|
|
I'm of the opinion that the next Democratic nominee probably isn't on anybody's radar at this point. They won't be a nobody, but I doubt it'll be readily apparent until the primary starts to take shape. I'm actually starting to think Michael Moore's notion of getting Tom Hanks or some other affable non-politician in the running might have merit. People like us may value "competence" and ideological bona fides, but there's a distressing number of people who can be won over on personality alone. Apart from the presidency, the left really needs to integrate itself with the Democratic Party downballot. Leaders that reliably turn out the vote and candidates that flip pivotal seats wind up with a lot of influence, and could help shape the ideological makeup of future administrations. I also wouldn't be surprised if the nominee was some upstart politician fresh off a hypothetical 2018 wave that happens to fit the national moment we're in four years from now. Someone like John Fetterman or Randy Bryce could be formidable, although not favored, if they win their races and get media attention.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 21:58
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:No I understand that, I'm saying that neoliberalism is (in theory) a coherent economic model and theory and things don't "become neoliberal" because they're outmoded, it was more of a semantic quibble than anything. Why not change A so that B isn't a choice between work or die?
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 21:59
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:Old people don't think as well as younger people and have difficulties adjusting to new ideas and changing circumstances. This is why all the Boomers still think Millenials are just whining about college costs because why don't they just get a summer job? Okay, but unless you're electing 35 year olds, I don't see the difference between a 50 year old, 60 year old, 70 year old, etc. They're all "old people set in their ways" at that point anyway.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 21:59
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:That's. . . probably ok though. Of course it’d be great to have a safety net. I just don’t think UBI will be anything more than a platitude. I think you won’t be able to afford the cost of living under UBI unless you move to the wilderness in the Midwest somewhere. I think that when UBI does get introduced it’ll result in a two tier system of neighbourhoods with haves and have nots. I think prices will go up enough that UBI won’t help you and people will still be upset about being unemployed. Part of the reason for this will be because all the extra gains made from automation will be syphoned off into the pockets of the rich as extra profits/dividends rather than a serious price decrease for goods and services..
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 21:59
|
|
|
ate poo poo on live tv posted:Why not change A so that B isn't a choice between work or die? I mean, we should, but until automation reaches a certain point it's not something you can just do, things still need to be made for people to live.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 22:00
|
|
|
WampaLord posted:Okay, but unless you're electing 35 year olds, I don't see the difference between a 50 year old, 60 year old, 70 year old, etc. They're all "old people set in their ways" at that point anyway. Somebody born 50 years ago is going to have an entirely different background and perspective on politics and the world than someone born 70 years ago? If you were born 70 years ago you came of age in the early '60s. If you were born 50 years ago you came of age under Reagan. That's a pretty significant difference, and things will keep changing and younger people get into power. Semi-joke answer: also gently caress Boomers, categorically.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 22:02
|
|
|
WampaLord posted:Okay, but unless you're electing 35 year olds, I don't see the difference between a 50 year old, 60 year old, 70 year old, etc. They're all "old people set in their ways" at that point anyway. From what I remember reading when I googled this issue during the last election cycle, statistically there actually are big differences, especially once you go over the 65 and older cliff. I'd have to google a bunch of poo poo to make the argument again but short version is that's my rationale for thinking Bernie's gonna be too old. FWIW Biden, Warren, and most everybody else I've seen named is also disqualified by this metric, as very definitely is Trump.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 22:03
|
|
|
Lightning Knight posted:I'm not sure I agree that this makes full employment as a target for government economic policy a neoliberal position. Neoliberalism is about not having the government intervene in the market as much as is possible. It's an argument I've heard from neoliberals for at least a decade. Like I mean people explicitly pushing neoliberal thought, I don't mean like politicians pretending to be moderates. I don't know if its, like, a pillar of neoliberal thought, but it seems common enough and compatible enough that it makes sense if they are coming at things from the "the sole purpose of the government and society is to build up the size of the economy no matter how those benefits are distributed"? There are a number of neoliberals who think the government using debt to pay people to dig holes and fill them in to obtain 100% employment is just an amazing idea. But I admit that one probably escapes a direct criticism of being neoliberal. The "debt is actually inherently good and desireable in its own right" thing is definitely very core-neoliberal though.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 22:03
|
|
|
stone cold posted:I just want us to be a bit kinder and more understanding, and maybe hug it out with the Nazis in the hope it will change their minds. We certainly shouldn't be engaging with violence with them, so long as they are simply exercising their right to free speech. Nah, punch Nazis erry'day GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Dec 4, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 22:03
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:From what I remember reading when I googled this issue during the last election cycle, statistically there actually are big differences, especially once you go over the 65 and older cliff. I'd have to google a bunch of poo poo to make the argument again but short version is that's my rationale for thinking Bernie's gonna be too old. FWIW Biden, Warren, and most everybody else I've seen named is also disqualified by this metric, as very definitely is Trump. I mean, I do agree with you in that ideally we should run younger candidates because they're more likely to be in touch with how the world is today, but I also don't see age as a disqualifying factor. Lightning Knight posted:Semi-joke answer: also gently caress Boomers, categorically. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 22:05
|
|
|
GlyphGryph posted:Nah, punch Nazis erry'day GlyphGryph posted:All the real monsters are men. GlyphGryph posted:Yeah, no, being a black Jew attempting to minimize and underestimate the danger of loving Nazis, helping them in the process, for a smidgen of psychological comfort really just makes it kinda worse. cool cool cool Lightning Knight posted:Somebody born 50 years ago is going to have an entirely different background and perspective on politics and the world than someone born 70 years ago? 
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 22:09
|
|
|
GlyphGryph posted:I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were an insane neoliberal who sees the government redistributing public wealth to the already-wealthy as a good thing because it "increases financial assets for the private sector" - as if there's something good about that. There is nothing good about that, remotely, whatsoever. quote:Uh no, it's pretty obviously inherently super bad and it's not just a question about distribution, it's the fundamental nature of society "owing" financial dispensations to individuals based on the amount of wealth they "loaned" to society. none of this has anything to do with the level of wealth anyone has "loaned to society", whatever that means. you're reading something into my post which isn't there. quote:The US government does not have servicing debt as it's primary responsibility quote:and sustainability depends on context. "unsustainable" in reference to a deficit rather than debt does not require a current inability to service, either, merely a future inability to service if the deficit continues to the current extent. quote:gently caress off, you insane neoliberal shill. to sum up: i'm in favor of heavy taxation for the wealthy, a strong social safety net, universal health care, free education, intersectional progressive policies and punching nazis. but to figure out how you can do all of those things you kinda need to understand how monetary policy actually works. so i gave you a condensed version of the stuff that leftist economists like stephanie kelton, bill mitchell and others have been preaching for years. i'm somewhat surprised you'd call that neoliberal. edit: if this is literally just about my statement about full employment, i apologize. "full employment" in this context refers to the full utilization of the real economy, i.e. factories actually getting used. it doesn't mean everyone has to work 40 hours a week. it is compatible with basic universal incomes.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 22:09
|
|
|
WampaLord posted:I mean, I do agree with you in that ideally we should run younger candidates because they're more likely to be in touch with how the world is today, but I also don't see age as a disqualifying factor. It's not just being in touch or whatever -- though that can be a problem -- it's actual hardening of the thought processes, rigid thinking. You lose a lot of mental flexibility with age. It's not just that old people don't want to learn to program the VCR, it's that it's actually harder for them to learn.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 22:10
|
|
|
GlyphGryph posted:He's using the textbook neoliberal explanation of why deficits are a good thing - that being that they result in private sector financial assets. actually neoliberal economics posits that you have to reduce the deficit whenever you can. edit: GlyphGryph posted:But I admit that one probably escapes a direct criticism of being neoliberal. The "debt is actually inherently good and desireable in its own right" thing is definitely very core-neoliberal though. it absolutely isn't. that's the whole reason neoliberals are pro-austerity.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 22:12
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:It's not just being in touch or whatever -- though that can be a problem -- it's actual hardening of the thought processes, rigid thinking. You lose a lot of mental flexibility with age. In a weird way, that might be a good thing, though. Like, Bernie has been so consistent on his views that I'm not afraid of him pulling an Obama and compromising away all of his beliefs if he were elected. Obama could have used some more rigid thinking, honestly. botany posted:edit: if this is literally just about my statement about full employment, i apologize. "full employment" in this context refers to the full utilization of the real economy, i.e. factories actually getting used. it doesn't mean everyone has to work 40 hours a week. it is compatible with basic universal incomes. So if those factories were totally automated, but working, you'd consider that full employment? That's a very odd use of the term. E: VVV Look I'm kind of spitballing here because I basically agree that we shouldn't elect olds and yet I absolutely would love to see Sanders run and win and I've got some cognitive dissonance going. WampaLord fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Dec 4, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 22:13
|
|
|
WampaLord posted:In a weird way, that might be a good thing, though. Like, Bernie has been so consistent on his views that I'm not afraid of him pulling an Obama and compromising away all of his beliefs if he were elected. I don't think that ideological consistency necessarily correlates with age, and arguably Obama was also ideologically consistent, he just wasn't ideologically the way we wanted him to be. quote:So if those factories were totally automated, but working, you'd consider that full employment? It's more like economics hasn't developed what a post-employment model would look like or be called.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 22:14
|
|
|
stone cold posted:cool cool cool Rich, from the person who said a little more tolerance from the left could have prevented the holocaust. gently caress off fascist sympathizer and enabler.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 22:16
|
|
|
WampaLord posted:In a weird way, that might be a good thing, though. Like, Bernie has been so consistent on his views that I'm not afraid of him pulling an Obama and compromising away all of his beliefs if he were elected. Yeah, Bernie kindof has the One Weird Trick answer to this in that he's been ideologically correct since before the Dawn of Time, so maybe rigidity isn't all bad in his case. Still though if a foreign policy emergency arose, or if there were policy issues where apply socialism problem solved wasn't the answer (we have already seen this some with his responses on race), he could run into problems. Like I said this basically disqualifies all my preferred candidates but it is a real concern and I'd prefer a younger Bernie alternative candidate if we can find one.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 22:17
|
|
|
GlyphGryph posted:Rich, from the person who said a little more tolerance from the left could have prevented the holocaust. [citation needed] please no seriously please actually cite a post where I say that quit making bullshit up because you got mad that people think nazis are goddamn monsters you idiot you’re the loving enabler here e: also, said black jew from earlier that you shut down put it better than you when she said Koalas March posted:They are not men. They are monsters. stone cold fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Dec 4, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 22:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 03:58 |
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, Bernie kindof has the One Weird Trick answer to this in that he's been ideologically correct since before the Dawn of Time, so maybe rigidity isn't all bad in his case. I think we're basically both on the same page, here. And yea, Bernie has his faults, but you're never going to find a perfect candidate. We really need to do the Les Enfants Terribles from Metal Gear Solid with Bernie.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2017 22:21
|
|