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I know Grey will play this out to the end (after all the time he's put into WITP:Day by Day over the years) but I'm getting a real hankering for another Goon Admiralty Rule The Waves...
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Dec 5, 2017 09:47
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Grey hasn't lost. Japan has lost, but that was inevitable, now he just needs to keep his points high enough for a victory for doing better enough.
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Dec 5, 2017 09:47
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3 DONG HORSE posted:The real life Midway outcome is the result of the US save scumming ten thousand times Also wallhacks.
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Dec 5, 2017 10:00
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Loads up threadGrumio posted:I'd ask that you fall on your sword, but unfortunately through the vagaries of the Japanese industry mechanics there are none.  RZApublican posted:Is there any chance of reloading an earlier save from before the battle happened and starting over from there? Having any measure of success in this game grind to a halt because the AI's algorithm is lovely with selecting targets is a really bad way to end our admittedly ahistorical string of victories on. I'm probably alone here but having it all come down to weird programming on the part of the developers kinda sucks the fun out of it. No, I don't keep saves of older days, it would tempt me to go back and try again. simplefish posted:I know Grey will play this out to the end (after all the time he's put into WITP:Day by Day over the years) but I'm getting a real hankering for another Goon Admiralty Rule The Waves... I'm itching for one as well, maybe I should rule the Sims LP dead as I don't have the time to do it and move on a another RTW.....
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Dec 5, 2017 10:21
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I must admit, I wasn't expecting the AI to use its carriers competently after the shitshow of invasions we've been seeing. I'm entirely against the idea of restarting the game from a save though, let the chips fall where they have.
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Dec 5, 2017 10:55
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Jeeze Grey, not even one backup? You live dangerously!
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Dec 5, 2017 11:09
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Gort posted:I must admit, I wasn't expecting the AI to use its carriers competently after the shitshow of invasions we've been seeing. The sheer number of Allied forces meant that there was always going to be a time when the AI would create a crushing concentration of force by complete accident.
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Dec 5, 2017 12:04
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gradenko_2000 posted:The sheer number of Allied forces meant that there was always going to be a time when the AI would create a crushing concentration of force by complete accident. What kind of carrier force do the Allies have at this point ? Was this 1/2 or 1/4th of their force that just clobbered the entire IJN carrier fleet ?
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Dec 5, 2017 12:16
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 TheFlyingLlama, Macha
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Dec 5, 2017 12:16
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I can never get myself to fight losing battles to the end in strategy games, which is a shame, because it seems like it could be fun and interesting.
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Dec 5, 2017 12:38
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Was War in the West ever patched up into being a good game or is it still on the list of games not to be LPed after this one?
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Dec 5, 2017 13:01
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RZApublican posted:Was War in the West ever patched up into being a good game or is it still on the list of games not to be LPed after this one? I like it, but it has lots of problems some of them inherent to the conflict, and some design decision. If you want to drive across europe as Patton and invade Italy it's a bit of fun the first two times you do it but after that you get sick of babysitting your pilots and making sure they have nap time. It's also great because the conflict slowly ramps up in complexity so it's a great learning grog game. I haven't played WitE but people seem to rightfully criticise it because you're not making sweeping strategic decisions it's more about running up and down the line until you find the right math that allows you to break the german lines.
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Dec 5, 2017 13:18
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RA Rx posted:Jeeze Grey, not even one backup? I backup the current turn, but I don't keep a long list of backups.
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Dec 5, 2017 13:21
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In human game can Allied side use a shitload of 1 ship fleets as a sort of "ablative armor" for your invasion of Japan proper? It looks like it'd confuse massive airstrike and end up in attrition fight with a massive carrier air of Allies. Or even eat up Kamikaze strikes, it looks like Allies could throw more merchant ships at the problem than Japan has planes.
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Dec 5, 2017 13:43
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alex314 posted:In human game can Allied side use a shitload of 1 ship fleets as a sort of "ablative armor" for your invasion of Japan proper? It looks like it'd confuse massive airstrike and end up in attrition fight with a massive carrier air of Allies. Or even eat up Kamikaze strikes, it looks like Allies could throw more merchant ships at the problem than Japan has planes. That's one cheese that was patched out. In the current version single ships are almost never going to be attacked by airstrikes, and this of course opens another cheesy strategy to resupply frontline bases under the enemy air umbrella with 5 single ship TFs instead of one 5-ship convoy. So if you want ablative TFs you need to fill them with 5-9 ships to make the target AI prioritize them.
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Dec 5, 2017 14:11
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The soak-off technique does work to some degree in air combat, where you can direct Fighter Sweeps over bases adjacent to the one that you really want to hit, because CAP can be drawn-out to defend nearby hexes.
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Dec 5, 2017 14:15
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So I'd want one destroyer as a early warning TF, a couple of transport decoys and then a couple of CVE/CV with full fighter CAP waiting to meet enemy over my decoys? It's weird you cannot set mission target class for your planes. It's not like it'd make the menu any worse 
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Dec 5, 2017 14:26
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algebra testes posted:I like it, but it has lots of problems some of them inherent to the conflict, and some design decision. If you want to drive across europe as Patton and invade Italy it's a bit of fun the first two times you do it but after that you get sick of babysitting your pilots and making sure they have nap time. WitE definitely runs into a mass line issue. A lot of it is finding that weak spot and then exploiting it. So instead of Kursk you might have Rzhev, or wherever you find the hole. I enjoy the scenarios more than the grand campaign as you can get the essence of a battle without slogging through dozens of turns of finding that one hole. It has a different sort of long-game than WitP. There's the same theater level background action interspersed with a turn or two of madness. WitW is fun a few times but once you get a firm foothold in europe it feels like the same game over and over. I was disappointed to not see a Bulge style attack happen. Again, the scenarios end up being more fun than NaziStomping in the grand campaign.
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Dec 5, 2017 17:28
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gradenko_2000 posted:The sheer number of Allied forces meant that there was always going to be a time when the AI would create a crushing concentration of force by complete accident. It doesn't feel like that's what happened here, which doesn't necessarily mean it didn't happen. Isn't this most of the active US carrier forces that are available at the moment?
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Dec 5, 2017 17:30
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Gort posted:It doesn't feel like that's what happened here, which doesn't necessarily mean it didn't happen. Isn't this most of the active US carrier forces that are available at the moment? This is akin to using all your bullets in a zombie movie then dying because there were more zombies
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Dec 5, 2017 18:11
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Just kidding, Grey, you've done a great job so far. We all knew this day was coming and it will be fascinating to see it continue to play out. Fight on til the end!
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Dec 5, 2017 18:12
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Yeah I was just making a joke about crazy Japanese war practices, not saying you should hang up the hat. You know what would cheer the thread up? Getting into a naval gunfight with another continent.
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Dec 5, 2017 18:17
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   Patrol boats vs destroyers starts with two of my ships ramming each other. Our ships know to shoot the expensive Allied ones at least.  Another group of orphans go out on the attack.  The only advantage of all this is that Jaluit now has some permanent air support.   Our planes over Rabaul have a nice day.   Lets see if anything else has sunk today.  Two light cruisers, but we have a better day points wise.
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Dec 5, 2017 18:31
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simplefish posted:I know Grey will play this out to the end (after all the time he's put into WITP:Day by Day over the years) but I'm getting a real hankering for another Goon Admiralty Rule The Waves... I'd run one but I can't commit to writing it. I wouldn't mind helping with administration again, though.
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Dec 5, 2017 18:43
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Grey, have you ever run an LP showing the Russian side of War in the East? I can only seem to remember your German LP of that game.
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Dec 5, 2017 18:52
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alex314 posted:In human game can Allied side use a shitload of 1 ship fleets as a sort of "ablative armor" for your invasion of Japan proper? It looks like it'd confuse massive airstrike and end up in attrition fight with a massive carrier air of Allies. Or even eat up Kamikaze strikes, it looks like Allies could throw more merchant ships at the problem than Japan has planes. The US Navy actually used something resembling this tactic with destroyers in the second half of the war to defend against Kamikazes.
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Dec 5, 2017 20:05
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To be slightly ghoulish, but since they were mentioned, what allows the Japanese player to start using kamikaze attacks? Some kind of Allied presence within a certain distance of Japan?
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Dec 5, 2017 20:21
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I know Midway was lucky, but a 10k savescum sounds like an exagerration - they lost 1 carrier. For those of you who've read Shattered Sword how much luck would you subscribe to the outcome? RA Rx fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Dec 5, 2017 |
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Dec 5, 2017 20:52
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RA Rx posted:I know Midway was lucky, but a 10k savescum sounds like an exagerration - they lost 1 carrier. I'm just going to tag in Shattered Sword here, and try to avoid quoting the last 3 chapters in total.   But you should read those chapters: 22 Why Did Japan Lose? 23 Assessing the Battle's Importance 24 The Myths and Mythmakers of Midway
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Dec 5, 2017 21:24
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RZApublican posted:Grey, have you ever run an LP showing the Russian side of War in the East? I can only seem to remember your German LP of that game. As far as I can tell, uPen was the one who ran the WitE Soviet run; both are preserved for posterity on the LPArchive. uPen succeeded brilliantly the first winter in loving up the AI, then the Germans bungled the 1942 counterattacks, and then the AI ran into some kind of bug that led them running all the way back to Germany before it made a stand--although part of it might have been the catastrophic losses it sustained.
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Dec 5, 2017 22:12
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The exact determination of luck, skill, and mistakes is pretty hard to determine, at least for the precise outcome achieved at Midway. For instance, Akagi took only a single direct bomb hit - but that bomb landed in the elevator, exploded in the hanger and set off a whole bunch of secondary explosions and av-gas fires. After that, the relatively terrible Japanese damage control lacked the ability to keep the ship afloat. So was that single bomb hit that took out a carrier lucky? Or was it the skill of the American dive bombers to land such a good hit? Or is the loss attributable to the lack of good damage control? Of course, if that bomb hadn't been as damaging, would that have made the outcome that much different? The return strike carried out by Hiryu only found the Yorktown and managed to sink it, so it's not like additional planes from Akagi would have made much of a difference, and both carriers may have been hit by the American follow-up that sunk Hiryu. Or a battle of Midway where a crippled Akagi limps home instead of sinking still means a massive loss in the ability of the Japanese to carry out strategic actions for the rest of the war. In the long run, the Japanese industrial machine was no match no matter what the outcome from Midway. The actual invasion of Midway was probably a fairly doomed effort even if the naval battle had gone well. A reverse outcome of that battle (say the US had lost all 3 carriers, and sunk only 1 Japanese carrier) would have delayed the Guadalcanal campaign until 1943, but not affected the outcome of the war.
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Dec 5, 2017 22:15
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True. No Guadalcanal would've meant no Solomons meatgrinder, though. Japan would've still been doomed, but no Midway and no Guadalcanal means that the main theatre for attrition in Japanese aviation would've had to happen somewhere else. It'd be interesting to speculate where.
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Dec 5, 2017 22:17
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Galaga Galaxian
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Dec 5, 2017 22:43
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Beat Coral Sea. On to Guadacanal, then the grand campaign. Yeah, I'm hooked.
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Dec 5, 2017 22:57
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Welp, I went and bought the game. Once the semester ends I'll have to dive in and see just how bad the UI actually is.
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Dec 5, 2017 23:53
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The two times I wish there was a save and redo was that battle and an alternative original WitP without dropping 'the bomb'. The bitter pill is that it wasn't an even trade making the rest of the thread a losing battle of attrition but just one crippling strike of there's and three total ineffective strikes to finish off even 1 of the 3 crippled Essex carriers. Thank you GH for it not being something totally stupid but just bad rng.
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Dec 5, 2017 23:54
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It's not even bad rng - the Allies have been getting better and better aircraft, and Grey has gradually lost his pool of pre-war super experienced pilots and has mostly the same aircraft as the start of the war. At this point the Allies get a decent advantage in any not totally lopsided carrier matchup.
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Dec 6, 2017 00:26
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Yeah, he was up against Helldivers and Hellcats. Isn't ground combat similar, with the Marines and Army getting meaner and meaner and backed up by their horrible death-Shermans?
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Dec 6, 2017 00:32
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bibliosabreur posted:True. No Guadalcanal would've meant no Solomons meatgrinder, though. Japan would've still been doomed, but no Midway and no Guadalcanal means that the main theatre for attrition in Japanese aviation would've had to happen somewhere else. It'd be interesting to speculate where. Another quote from good old Shattered Sword: "To support Operation Galvanic [the Gilbert Islands Invasion] the US Navy employed six fleet, five light, and seven escort carriers." Several paragraphs later: "Even had every carrier that attacked Pearl Harbor in December 1941 to sallied forth intact in 1943 to face the Americans off the Gilberts, the outcome there would have been almost certainly disastrous." Really an American player doesn't even need to clown the AI. They can sit on their hands until the USA is commissioning Essexes every other month. SolarFire2 fucked around with this message at 01:58 on Dec 6, 2017 |
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Dec 6, 2017 01:56
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Fperson1 posted:Welp, I went and bought the game. Once the semester ends I'll have to dive in and see just how bad the UI actually is. It's bad. I just got the game and even after reading for years about how bad it is in GH threads, I'm a little surprised. Everything seems to be buried multiple menus deep. Also the interface is a little laggy. I haven't played too much yet so hopefully I'll get used to it with time.
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Dec 6, 2017 02:23
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