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Zamujasa
Oct 27, 2010



Bread Liar

fishmech posted:

one thing to consider in general is that if you have had something suppressed for long enough whether through somewhat consciously doing so or as a result of depression or something, it may feel like you only feel it a little now. But actually investigating it or lifting depression or w/e can lead to you realizing you really feel that quite a bit.

the key is really that if it really was a big issue after all it will hit you at some point on its own seemingly out of nowhere when you aren't prepared for it. While finding it now is about as prepared as you can be and also means that you'll probably be doing something about it to help asap, so it never gets the chance to build up worse.

that's the situation i'm in, yeah.

reddit, but someone linked me to a post on asktransgender asking if cis folks ever thought about their gender, or what it would be like to be different, and the response was usually "as a cis person, i don't think about it at all".

i've been having to realize that the feelings i'm experiencing (self-loathing, dysphoria, Gender Feels™, etc) aren't normal, i've just internalized them to the point i thought they were. see also "what do you think dysphoria is", above


a friend of mine is getting their facial hair lasered off in the near future and i'm considering doing it myself. i've thought about it before but always had "well, what if i actually want it at some point" doubts, but i'm beginning to realize i'm never actually going to have those doubts and i should just loving do it already

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FAT32 SHAMER
Aug 16, 2012



Facial hair sucks and as a cishet i would totally do it so i stop having to shave every goddamn day

Ciaphas
Nov 20, 2005

> BEWARE, COWARD :ovr:


i dunno about dysphoria in my case or whatever, but it is something i scratch my head about once in a while. usually I conclude almost immediately that i'm just fat, unhealthy and pretty ugly besides (a goon, in other words). like lord knows i hate my body and appearance but that's mostly my fault

suppose if I had to pin it on a scale I'm 99.9% sure i'm heterosexual (i'd say 100% but certainty is a lie in tyool 2017) and like... 97% sure i'm cisgendered?

idk just vague 'what if i were a different, possibly better or at least better looking, person' musings probably and nothing to do with the queer thread at all, sorry

Ciaphas
Nov 20, 2005

> BEWARE, COWARD :ovr:


FAT32 SHAMER posted:

Facial hair sucks and as a cishet i would totally do it so i stop having to shave every goddamn day

i barely have to shave twice a week--lovely hair growing genes i guess--but even so very very :same:

Raere
Dec 13, 2007

What do folks think about using euphemisms to talk about genitals around trans people? I saw some Youtube videos that trans friends sent me in earnest that suggested saying 'bottom innie' instead of vagina and 'bottom outie' instead of penis. Those terms sound childish to me, but is it helpful at all to be more careful with my word choice? I'm inclined to treat people like adults and use the usual terms.

Shame Boy
Mar 2, 2010

Raere posted:

What do folks think about using euphemisms to talk about genitals around trans people? I saw some Youtube videos that trans friends sent me in earnest that suggested saying 'bottom innie' instead of vagina and 'bottom outie' instead of penis. Those terms sound childish to me, but is it helpful at all to be more careful with my word choice? I'm inclined to treat people like adults and use the usual terms.

i generally like ladyboner around friends because it's the preferred term of at least two of my no-op trans friends and my wife, and also it's funny and descriptive

use whatever the person you're talking to wants you to use, and if you don't know them well enough to know what that is you probably shouldn't be inquiring about their genitals in the first place :shrug:

9b817f5
Nov 1, 2007

weeps quietly in binary
enterprise software development is v good for my mental health

The MUMPSorceress
Jan 6, 2012


^SHTPSTS

Gary’s Answer

Raere posted:

What do folks think about using euphemisms to talk about genitals around trans people? I saw some Youtube videos that trans friends sent me in earnest that suggested saying 'bottom innie' instead of vagina and 'bottom outie' instead of penis. Those terms sound childish to me, but is it helpful at all to be more careful with my word choice? I'm inclined to treat people like adults and use the usual terms.

that poo poo sounds condescending as hell. just follow peoples leads on what they call their stuff, but really how often do you have a reason to refer to anyone's junk in conversation?

The MUMPSorceress
Jan 6, 2012


^SHTPSTS

Gary’s Answer
:siren:

okay, as promised here is the worlds longest post about gender and health care. i've posted most of this in varying forms in various threads, but since i posted this thread i owe some effort posting so here it is in post/essay form.

before i can begin to even talk about gender in a healthcare software context, we need to go over a lot of conceptual ground first. strap in kids.

---
part 1: terminology and how it lies to you

the first thing you need to understand is that as a cisgender or heterosexual person, the entire way you conceptualize sex and gender is a patchwork of mental shorthand and stereotypes bundled into a convenient set of categories to help you navigate interactions with other people. let's talk about some of them.

sex: this word all by itself has to be thrown away almost immediately in any serious discussion of gender issues. it's an extremely overloaded word, being used to mean everything from "assigned gender" to "what chromosomes" to "what genitals" to "how you think of yourself" and while many of these concepts overlap, they're not the same. most people will realize the shortcomings of this term almost immediately and the response is predictable; people will attempt to define some more specific concept of sex to get closer to whatever they're trying to address. the one cis people most often fall to in my experience is "biological sex". this is actually even more useless so let's talk about it next.

biological sex: i can't count the number of times i've been in a meeting with cis people talking about how to program around sex in some scenario and someone immediately asks the totally profound question "what if we used biological sex?" My response is always "define biological sex."

see, here's the thing. people have started to accept the idea of gender as a spectrum, and that you can be male, female, in between, or none of the above in terms of identity. but their thinking about bodies is still completely locked up in "boy or girl?". people think they're being helpful when they say "well, maybe in this medication alert we should use biological sex" because in their reasoning even if you're not a girl now, you were born as one so that's the most relevant detail. the problem is that the entire concept of "girl" is a generalization. the terminology is lying to you. what does it mean to be a female in the sense of sex. here's a non-comprehensive list of things that, on average, a female has:
  • breast tissue
  • vagina
  • proportionately more body fat on the thighs and buttocks.
  • proportionately more white fat
  • lower blood pressure
  • higher estrogen
  • lower testosterone
  • periods
  • ovaries
  • narrow shoulders
  • wider pelvises
  • a million more things

your first problem is that no female has all of these things. your second problem is that most of them are only meaningful when compared to your list of what a male has. the definitions are mutually dependent. "women have wider hips." wider than what? "than a man." which man? even if you take trans people completely out of the equation (which I am doing at this stage in this post) it means you can't take the fact of femaleness in isolation to guide your decision making. you might warn a woman who carries more fat in her upper back and belly to watch her diet at a lower weight than a woman who carries it in her thighs (weight on the torsos tends to be yellow fat, which is more strongly correlated with poor health than the white fat carried on the lower body). how did you decide to make that warning for one vs the other? they're both women, so you based it on a measure that is totally objective and isolatable: type of fat.

the fat example is simple and vacuous, and i'll tackle some harder ones when we circle back to gender and healthcare technology, but this should at least get you on the right path of thinking about this class of problems.

here's the other problem with the concept of "biological sex": it inherently has to make the assumption that biological sex can change, but it doesn't offer any useful metric for deciding at what point that change happens. i was in a design meeting with a bunch of urologists and they asked that we base the genital diagrams they chart on on biological sex. they were all very confused when i pointed out that they are likely at some point in their life to treat a patient who has a both a vagina and a prostate (they leave the prostate when they do penile inversion vaginoplasty as it's important for sexual sensation and trying to remove it can lead to incontinence). none of them could tell me what biological sex they would consider that person to have. in my home state of wisconsin, they've legally defined biological sex as simply "penis or vagina" and you have to submit proof you've switched from one to the other to change your birth certificate. this is good enough if your goal is just to make trans people's lives lovely, but it's completely worthless to you if you're trying to make medically important decisions.

here's the other other problem: there's thousands of intersex conditions. some of them are totally benign and you'll develop just like a cis man or woman and never feel "wrong" in the role assigned to that and you'll live your whole life without ever knowing. but if we did a dna test on you you might have 3 (or even 4!) chromosomes. others, like total androgen insensitivity syndrome, means that even though you're XY genetically your body doesn't respond to testosterone (even in the womb) so you develop a vagina and look exactly like a cis woman but you have little testicles inside your body instead of ovaries so you're sterile. in the UK there was a controversy because the NHS's policy for over 50 years was to lie to these people and tell them they were XX cis females that are sterile, and to maintain that lie for their entire lives to the point where their GPs have to lie to them about their infertility and falsify records shared with them and so on. this finally came out in the last decade or so and suddenly a lot of women have answers as to why they have inexplicable infertility with diagnoses that don't perfectly match their symptoms. still other varieties have ambiguous genitalia and it's all too common for doctors to simply pick a gender for the kid and operate on them to make them look "normal", or for them to make this decision with the parents. poo poo's hosed up, and all because we really really want people to fit into our easy system of "male" or "female".

ok, let's move on.

gender: i am for the most part going to use "gender" as shorthand for "gender identity" but here i'm going to talk specifically about the wider concept of gender. generally speaking, gender is the scale with the poles "male" and "female" and we stick you somewhere between those two and that's your gender. people have an internal experience of gender (gender identity), other people's expectations of their gender (gender role), how they perform their gender (gender presentation), and so on. gender is another shortcut; gender is a descriptor for all these various social and psychological experiences that we have placed into two poles for simplicity's sake.

in our oh-so-woke society we now have people who hear "gender is a spectrum", never take that train of thought further, and declare that because they're a tomboy they're actually a transmasc because everyone's desperate to be a minority now as long as they don't have to live with any of the downsides (but this is something for me to rant about another time).

the idea of whether gender is totally innate, totally learned, or a mix of the two is a huge raging can of worms debate (unless you're a second wave feminist and then it's innate and came with the vagina you were born with god drat it), and it's led some people to suggest that we just throw away the whole concept. i disagree there. even if gender isn't useful for categorization or critical decision making, identifying with and performing gender clearly enriches peoples' lives. i don’t want to be generic meat unit 77 who likes to wear dresses. digressing again.


part 2: ok, so gender is hard. what about medicine?

alright, so now that we've muddied the waters a bit let's talk about transgender healthcare. you can split trans healthcare into roughly two categories: medical intervention and social intervention. medical intervention includes things like HRT and surgery. social intervention involves therapy, support groups, job assistance, shelter programs, etc.

social care is important, but largely irrelevant to this discussion. social care, at least in the US system, comes largely either through self initiative by the patient or from the PCP/therapist. since patients are, generally speaking, out to the person prescribing them hormones or giving them therapy there's really nothing interesting to lead into the tech part of this post later, so moving on.

medical intervention is the meat of the question that was asked so that's where i'll focus. i'm going to split this into a couple subsections so we can build knowledge and then talk about what areas technology can potentially help (but is really hard to implement).

i'm going to stop talking about intersex stuff at this point because i'm not an expert on it and i don't want to give the impression of speaking with authority on a topic i only know due to intersectional advocacy.

=== 2a: types of intervention

HRT: trans people often refer to any drugs or hormones taken to facilitate transition as "HRT", but this is a dangerous simplification if you need to communicate your medical situation to a doctor. there's a bunch of different drugs you can take, and since it's next to impossible to construct an ethical double-blind study of transition drugs (because you're either withholding necessary medicine from a group with an insane suicide rate or asking cis people to grow cross gender bodyparts for science) all of these drugs are prescribed off-label and it was basically discovered by accident that any of these do poo poo. here's some of them (i'm talking about trans women in this section because for men Testosterone is basically all they need and the advantages and disadvantages of taking shitloads of steroids are pretty well known):

estrogen (generally in the form of estradiol). this is probably the one everyone assumes when you say HRT for a trans woman. in fact i've had multiple non-trans doctors ask me "how long i've been on estrogen" and be surprised when i gave them a longer list of drugs. back in the day they got it out of pregnant mare piss and pumped you full of dozens of milligrams and unsurprisingly lots of trans women used to drop dead of kidney and liver issues because estrogen is hard to process. nowadays we use other drugs to suppress your body's testosterone production so the estrogen works better in smaller amounts (more on those drugs later). a typical dose these days is 4-6mg daily administered sublingually.

risks include blood clots and liver/kidney issues. don't fuckin smoke if you're taking estrogen and make sure you stop taking it a couple weeks out from major surgeries. DVTs ain't nothing to gently caress with.

spironolactone - this is the one and only drug permitted to be prescribed as a testosterone blocker in the US. its on-label use is for heart disease and when you start this poo poo you get a lecture from your doctor not to stand up too fast because your blood pressure is going to be lower now and you might pass out. it just so happens to also nestle quite nicely into the testosterone receptors in your body, which tricks your balls into making less T. this is the key to using lower doses of estrogen.

drawbacks are that it lowers your blood pressure (which sucks if you were already healthy), it's a diuretic so you have to drink like 4x the water and eat infinity salt to make up for all the sodium your losing (i drink like 20 bottles of water a day, poo poo you not), and makes your kidneys suck at processing potassium so if someone slips you a salt substitute or low sodium soy sauce you'll poo poo your kidneys out and die. i havent eaten a banana in 3 years.

finasteride - this is sold under the trade name Propecia. it's on-label use is for mans to keep their hair from falling out. it's used off-label in a similar manner to spiro because it functions by preventing your body from processing testosterone into DHT. it's almost always prescribed only in conjunction with spiro because it's not as good at lowering your T production. a lot of WPATH members think it doesn't work at all but euro doctors love to prescribe it.

there's a few other t-blockers they prescribe in like thailand and eastern europe and i urge you not to take any of them if i didn't mention them here.

progesterone - commonly administered as medroxyprogesterone, this is a hormone that spikes in pregnant women. some women take it because the crazies over on susan's place thinks it makes your boobs develop nicer but most doctors ive talked to say there's no evidence for that and it doesn't do much. risks included heightened depression, lowered libido. sounds like a great thing to prescribe to people prone to offing themselves.

gender confirmation surgery: any surgery intended to help bring the body in line with the patient's mental self image. insensitive shitheads will call this a "sex change" but if you understood the section on why sex is a stupid word you understand why that's dumb as gently caress. here's some common ones.

breast augmentation/chest reduction - adding tits to trans women, chopping them off of trans men. nuff said.

vaginoplasty - making a vagina out of a penis. there's several methods. in the US it's penile inversion. there's the "thai method" where they use your scrote instead and sometimes hunks of your colon. people who go to thailand for their surgery have an insane religious devotion to the idea of it as the One True Vagina but getting your pussy made in thailand has all the same risks as going to the 3rd world for any other medical procedure with the bonus that american doctors won't touch you if you have an emergency because you're a walking liability now.

there's also variations like the zero-depth labiaplasty where they make a labia without a hole. they prefer this for old people who ain't having sex anyway because it reduces the time under anesthesia and bleed risk.

after you get your vagina you stop taking spiro because your balls make like 98% of the testosterone in your body, and you get to take less estrogen too (and eat bananas).

orchiectomy - this is where they just remove your balls and leave your dick because you like having a dick but you want to stop taking spiro/stop having to jam your balls up inside your body every day to tuck.

hysterectomy - you all know what this is and it shouldn't surprise you that trans men get them. lets them reduce their T dose.

phalloplasty - this is making a penis out of the clitors (which is enlarged by T) and a scrote out of the labia. you get those dope fake balls that dog show cheaters use too. there's a bunch of variations on this just like there are for vaginaplasty but i'm not as familiar with them. one thing to note is that a huge number of trans men opt to skip on this surgery because it has some drawbacks and it's not as far as advanced as lady surgeries.

voice surgery - for trans women; shorten the vocal chords to raise the voice's fundamental pitch.

"cosmetic" procedures - this would be all the poo poo you can do to your face and body to achieve the look of your gender identity. they're not actually cosmetic (imagine the horror of being a woman and looking at your adam's apple in the mirror every day), but historically insurance companies have lumped them in there to avoid paying, though this is changing (thanks obama). think poo poo like fat transfers, facial recontouring and implants, and so on.

other stuff:

voice therapy - helping people develop speech patterns and pitches that help project their gender identity.

movement therapy - help you "walk like a dude" or "walk like a chick"


the idea you need to be getting from this section is that transition is more complicated than just "is on HRT" or "had the surgery" and all these different factors affect medical decisions differently.

== 2b: healthcare scenarios

in this section i'm going to walk through a few different healthcare scenarios to help ground my actual technical recommendations later.

PCP visit (not transition related): i go to the doctor and i have a bad cough. i'm not out to my PCP (someone else is managing my hormones). he orders a couple tests and sends me on my way. my doctor doesn’t need to know my trans status.

ER visit: ER workflows are often to get the triage and admit done asap and then chart later when the patient is stable. if i am admitted unconscious or unable to respond, it may be necessary for the admit/triage system to let the physician and nurse know about my status. after all, the condition is not often entered up front so the computer has no way of knowing if they need to cut my clothes off (and be surprised by unexpected genitals) or if i just hit my head.

unfortunately this sort of "eager" notification can have downsides. there are countless stories of trans people being denied care by ER providers once their status is known (here's a listicle: http://www.cosmopolitan.com/health-fitness/a45167/transgender-healthcare/). a particularly horrifying case i heard anecdotally in my community was of a trans woman of color who was denied care for a gunshot when the ER doctor removed her clothes and found a penis. he said "that's not a woman, that's a friend of the family" and refused to treat.

because of that risk, this may be a policy decision on the hospital's part. eager notification may get people killed without proper training on trans issues for providers, but lack of notification may lead to deaths when providers explore avenues of diagnosis that aren't possible or order contraindicated drugs.

flu shot clinic: trans status doesn't need to be known, end of story. i'm going to take this simple case to draw an important distinction: which aspect of trans status is secret depends on where a patient is in their transition. if i am just starting hormones and am only out to a handful of people, my gender identity and new name are the secret. if i'm years along and living full time as my true self, it's my deadname and sex assigned at birth that are a secret.

gynecologist: if you’re a trans man, your gyno probably knows your trans status. on the other hand, your gynecologist's software might "helpfully" stop you from making appointments on line since men don't need to see gynos. avoiding automated microaggressions like this is critical in reducing the stress in your trans patients' lives.

urologist: i'm a trans woman who has had bottom surgery and have an appointment with the urologist for incontinence. there's several issues to attend to here.

disclosure - the urologist needs to know that i have a prostate, as prostate issues can be involved in incontinence. he may also need to familiarize himself with the bottom surgery procedure to understand how your urethra is configured and where you may have scar tissue. the challenge is that walking into a proctologist appointment to find that he already knows you're trans can be a shock. ideally, we should have a way to notify the patient that disclosure may be needed and have them sign off that they're agreeing by taking the appointment. we can't set the doctor up for failure so in this situation "don't disclose" is not an option.

charting - patient has decided to take the appointment despite disclosure. the doctor finds that the prostate is inflamed. in many software systems there are diagrams that doctors chart on, but i've never encountered one that has a vagina+prostate diagram. this leaves doctors in the sticky situation of either picking the male diagram and charting on the prostate or picking the female one and leaving some rather lengthy notes somewhere vaguely on the urethtra.


part 3: engineering recommendations

Okay, here's that meaty poo poo you are looking for. after 5 years as a trans person in the health care software industry, here's my thoughts on how to design a system that accommodates trans (and hopefully intersex) people to a reasonable degree.

i'm guided by the following principles:
  • Granularity of data. At some point, we're going to be sharing info that the patient really doesn't like sharing. we should try to minimize the amount of data we have to share if at all possible.
  • respect for privacy (duh)
  • minimization of risk

=== 3a: data model

Anatomical inventory: this is critical functionality for a medical record. individual elements for each organ and major system should be present. default to the typical set of organs for someone's sex assigned at birth, and allow the doctor to add or remove organs as necessary or note differences in the organs. this is critical not just for tracking what transitioning patients change in their body, but is honestly necessary for providing correct care for anybody who has any organ removed or changed. after all, cis women have hysterectomies too, and cis men have testicles removed. or kidneys. or colons. and so on.

genetic inventory: at a minimum, the ability to track which chromosomes a patient has (especially if they have more than 2). ideally you should be able to store full sequencing data but this is obviously is an insane amount of data and should probably only be stored for patients who are already known to have a genetic condition that's worth alerting on.

hormone history: a clinician should be able to easily retrieve my most recent hormone levels, as well as historical trends and averages. this can be critical for both diagnosis and for avoiding dangerous orders.

surgical history: not everything can be accounted for by anatomical inventory. breast implants, trach shaves, muscle implants, and so on, can affect treatment but are not technically anatomy.

patient-disclosed providers: patients should be able to select specific providers and specialties to which they would like to disclose by default.

required disclosures: an organization-maintained list that defines which providers definitely need disclosure to do their jobs and how this should be communicated to patients.

sex assigned at birth: this is the sex the doctor said the baby was. there's some stuff we just haven't studied enough to know why the gently caress sex makes a difference so you're still stuck using this (creatinine clearance is one such test).

gender identity: duh

legal name: what is the insurance company going to demand on the claim

legal sex: see legal name

preferred name: this should be distinct from nickname. epic uses the same field for both and it leads to pure hell in trying to decide whether it's safe to show a user the preferred name, as it could be "tom" short for "thomas" or "tina" for legal name "mike".

private data: this is basically an on-off switch that says whether nondisclosed users should see legal name and sex or preferred name and gender identity.

there's probably a lot of other poo poo i'm forgetting but this list gives you an idea of how to approach things.

=== 2b: functionality

here's some examples of the sort of functionality a system needs to have to be successful. this is nonexhaustive and should give you an idea how to extrapolate to areas of your system not addressed.

best practice alerting: EMRs frequently pop up warning when a provider does something contraindicated. a patient may go in for a condition that does not require disclosure, but at some point the doctor enters an order that is inappropriate based on the data we know about the patient. we should pop up an alert to the provider, tailored as narrowly as possible. for example, if the doctor orders a pregnancy test the alert may simply say "unnecessary test: uterus not present in anatomical inventory". if the doctor orders a referral to gynecology we may need to give a more specific alert or tell them to talk to the patient first (and which we do should probably be org defined).

pharmacy: clinical pharmacists are probably the clinicians i have the most respect for in the whole system. these guys probably save more lives than anybody else just from stopping stupid physician orders. this is one of the only providers who i think should always be disclosed. after all he is rarely going to actually meet the patient but he could stop a bad interaction before it starts. give them alerts when we can programmaticaly detect contradindication too.

ER: configure whether to disclose at admit time or not based on hospital policy and whether the patient was admitted conscious and responsive.

primary care: track whether PCP is also managing patient's hormones and transition care. if not, just show them whatever the non-private data is. patients have to maintain an ongoing relationship with their PCP and should feel in control of their disclosure (unless an order goes in that could cause a problem, obviously).

billing: store on the patient coverage what sex and name should be sent to the insurance company, as this can vary by carrier. smaller HMOs are often leaning toward accepting claims with "social information" rather than legal name and sex as long as it's still uniquely identifying. use this when generating claims. if claims need editing, maintain a separate queue where only trained and authorized users can review claims with potentially outing information on them.

patient engagement: don't automatically generate letters to transwomen telling them it's pap smear time. we're all really sick of getting these. stop reminding trans men about prostate exams. in general, provide faculties to generate directed communication on finder grained data than just sex. send mammogram reminders to anyone with breasts documented in the anatomical inventory. only send pap smears to those who were born with vaginas, etc.

claims: if your system processes claims (i actually worked on epics software for administering managed care health plans, lol i was evil) provide the ability to intelligently base claims for sex-discriminated services on either sex assigned at birth, gender identity, or both. definitely don't use legal sex at all. what does what alabama says my sex is have to do with my health? ditto authorizing referrals, etc.

rooming: drive who you room patients with off of gender identity and prefer single rooms when possible. except in alabama where it's illegal to room based on gender identity (im not joking about that btw, you will get your patient sent to jail).

case management: route new cases to case managers who are trained to deal with trans patients. transgender patients have a list of comorbidities a mile long.

radiology: prompt for disclosure for stuff like pelvic xrays. the last thing you want is the patient finding out that the tech can see their dick after the damage is already done.

diagrams: make diagrams modular. don't build a diagram of the whole reproductive system. instead have diagrams of the distinct organs and be able to smartly stitch them together based on the patient's anatomical inventory. same for any other sex-separated organ system. your doctors will thank you when they have less confusing notes.

the end

hopefully all that gave you some idea of the issues involved, the sensitive areas, pitfalls, and what you can do to get it right. thanks for reading.

spankmeister
Jun 15, 2008






:eyepop:

ima read this later during my commute

atelier morgan
Mar 11, 2003

super-scientific, ultra-gay

Lipstick Apathy

Ciaphas posted:

i dunno about dysphoria in my case or whatever, but it is something i scratch my head about once in a while. usually I conclude almost immediately that i'm just fat, unhealthy and pretty ugly besides (a goon, in other words). like lord knows i hate my body and appearance but that's mostly my fault

suppose if I had to pin it on a scale I'm 99.9% sure i'm heterosexual (i'd say 100% but certainty is a lie in tyool 2017) and like... 97% sure i'm cisgendered?

idk just vague 'what if i were a different, possibly better or at least better looking, person' musings probably and nothing to do with the queer thread at all, sorry

the q stands for questioning too

i would strongly recommend you get a therapist or if you have one talk to them about your perspective on identity, your body and gender

this post sounds a lot like how i thought before i came out to myself (and i mean i still think i'm fat and ugly but at least i know its maladaptive thinking) and it took my worries and concerns and perspective being taken seriously by a professional for me to take them seriously myself, which is not to say that you're definitely trans by any stretch, but just you know, throwing it out there

Improbable Lobster
Jan 6, 2012

"From each according to his ability" said Ares. It sounded like a quotation.
Buglord
i may be fat and stupid but at least i'm serious about being bi

Tatsujin
Apr 26, 2004

:golgo:
EVERYONE EXCEPT THE HOT WOMEN
:golgo:

thank you very much for this post it was incredibly informative and gives a lot to think about. it reminded me of high school health/biology/anatomy classes in comparison to physics/math when they teach you basic poo poo in absolutes, but are like "for now, don't worry about friction" or "sqrt of -1? don't worry about it" then later on be like "turns out it's very complicated, and it only gets exponentially more complicated from here if you're pursuing post-collegiate study in these subjects".

meanwhile you got people who did pre-med, med school, and residency who apparently don't understand a lot of this "it's actually very complicated" stuff and drat it's pretty scary not even considering the social issues on top of it.

Shaggar
Apr 26, 2006

cis autodrag posted:

:siren:

okay, as promised here is the worlds longest post about gender and health care. i've posted most of this in varying forms in various threads, but since i posted this thread i owe some effort posting so here it is in post/essay form.

before i can begin to even talk about gender in a healthcare software context, we need to go over a lot of conceptual ground first. strap in kids.

---
part 1: terminology and how it lies to you

the first thing you need to understand is that as a cisgender or heterosexual person, the entire way you conceptualize sex and gender is a patchwork of mental shorthand and stereotypes bundled into a convenient set of categories to help you navigate interactions with other people. let's talk about some of them.

sex: this word all by itself has to be thrown away almost immediately in any serious discussion of gender issues. it's an extremely overloaded word, being used to mean everything from "assigned gender" to "what chromosomes" to "what genitals" to "how you think of yourself" and while many of these concepts overlap, they're not the same. most people will realize the shortcomings of this term almost immediately and the response is predictable; people will attempt to define some more specific concept of sex to get closer to whatever they're trying to address. the one cis people most often fall to in my experience is "biological sex". this is actually even more useless so let's talk about it next.

biological sex: i can't count the number of times i've been in a meeting with cis people talking about how to program around sex in some scenario and someone immediately asks the totally profound question "what if we used biological sex?" My response is always "define biological sex."

see, here's the thing. people have started to accept the idea of gender as a spectrum, and that you can be male, female, in between, or none of the above in terms of identity. but their thinking about bodies is still completely locked up in "boy or girl?". people think they're being helpful when they say "well, maybe in this medication alert we should use biological sex" because in their reasoning even if you're not a girl now, you were born as one so that's the most relevant detail. the problem is that the entire concept of "girl" is a generalization. the terminology is lying to you. what does it mean to be a female in the sense of sex. here's a non-comprehensive list of things that, on average, a female has:
  • breast tissue
  • vagina
  • proportionately more body fat on the thighs and buttocks.
  • proportionately more white fat
  • lower blood pressure
  • higher estrogen
  • lower testosterone
  • periods
  • ovaries
  • narrow shoulders
  • wider pelvises
  • a million more things

your first problem is that no female has all of these things. your second problem is that most of them are only meaningful when compared to your list of what a male has. the definitions are mutually dependent. "women have wider hips." wider than what? "than a man." which man? even if you take trans people completely out of the equation (which I am doing at this stage in this post) it means you can't take the fact of femaleness in isolation to guide your decision making. you might warn a woman who carries more fat in her upper back and belly to watch her diet at a lower weight than a woman who carries it in her thighs (weight on the torsos tends to be yellow fat, which is more strongly correlated with poor health than the white fat carried on the lower body). how did you decide to make that warning for one vs the other? they're both women, so you based it on a measure that is totally objective and isolatable: type of fat.

the fat example is simple and vacuous, and i'll tackle some harder ones when we circle back to gender and healthcare technology, but this should at least get you on the right path of thinking about this class of problems.

here's the other problem with the concept of "biological sex": it inherently has to make the assumption that biological sex can change, but it doesn't offer any useful metric for deciding at what point that change happens. i was in a design meeting with a bunch of urologists and they asked that we base the genital diagrams they chart on on biological sex. they were all very confused when i pointed out that they are likely at some point in their life to treat a patient who has a both a vagina and a prostate (they leave the prostate when they do penile inversion vaginoplasty as it's important for sexual sensation and trying to remove it can lead to incontinence). none of them could tell me what biological sex they would consider that person to have. in my home state of wisconsin, they've legally defined biological sex as simply "penis or vagina" and you have to submit proof you've switched from one to the other to change your birth certificate. this is good enough if your goal is just to make trans people's lives lovely, but it's completely worthless to you if you're trying to make medically important decisions.

here's the other other problem: there's thousands of intersex conditions. some of them are totally benign and you'll develop just like a cis man or woman and never feel "wrong" in the role assigned to that and you'll live your whole life without ever knowing. but if we did a dna test on you you might have 3 (or even 4!) chromosomes. others, like total androgen insensitivity syndrome, means that even though you're XY genetically your body doesn't respond to testosterone (even in the womb) so you develop a vagina and look exactly like a cis woman but you have little testicles inside your body instead of ovaries so you're sterile. in the UK there was a controversy because the NHS's policy for over 50 years was to lie to these people and tell them they were XX cis females that are sterile, and to maintain that lie for their entire lives to the point where their GPs have to lie to them about their infertility and falsify records shared with them and so on. this finally came out in the last decade or so and suddenly a lot of women have answers as to why they have inexplicable infertility with diagnoses that don't perfectly match their symptoms. still other varieties have ambiguous genitalia and it's all too common for doctors to simply pick a gender for the kid and operate on them to make them look "normal", or for them to make this decision with the parents. poo poo's hosed up, and all because we really really want people to fit into our easy system of "male" or "female".

ok, let's move on.

gender: i am for the most part going to use "gender" as shorthand for "gender identity" but here i'm going to talk specifically about the wider concept of gender. generally speaking, gender is the scale with the poles "male" and "female" and we stick you somewhere between those two and that's your gender. people have an internal experience of gender (gender identity), other people's expectations of their gender (gender role), how they perform their gender (gender presentation), and so on. gender is another shortcut; gender is a descriptor for all these various social and psychological experiences that we have placed into two poles for simplicity's sake.

in our oh-so-woke society we now have people who hear "gender is a spectrum", never take that train of thought further, and declare that because they're a tomboy they're actually a transmasc because everyone's desperate to be a minority now as long as they don't have to live with any of the downsides (but this is something for me to rant about another time).

the idea of whether gender is totally innate, totally learned, or a mix of the two is a huge raging can of worms debate (unless you're a second wave feminist and then it's innate and came with the vagina you were born with god drat it), and it's led some people to suggest that we just throw away the whole concept. i disagree there. even if gender isn't useful for categorization or critical decision making, identifying with and performing gender clearly enriches peoples' lives. i don’t want to be generic meat unit 77 who likes to wear dresses. digressing again.


part 2: ok, so gender is hard. what about medicine?

alright, so now that we've muddied the waters a bit let's talk about transgender healthcare. you can split trans healthcare into roughly two categories: medical intervention and social intervention. medical intervention includes things like HRT and surgery. social intervention involves therapy, support groups, job assistance, shelter programs, etc.

social care is important, but largely irrelevant to this discussion. social care, at least in the US system, comes largely either through self initiative by the patient or from the PCP/therapist. since patients are, generally speaking, out to the person prescribing them hormones or giving them therapy there's really nothing interesting to lead into the tech part of this post later, so moving on.

medical intervention is the meat of the question that was asked so that's where i'll focus. i'm going to split this into a couple subsections so we can build knowledge and then talk about what areas technology can potentially help (but is really hard to implement).

i'm going to stop talking about intersex stuff at this point because i'm not an expert on it and i don't want to give the impression of speaking with authority on a topic i only know due to intersectional advocacy.

=== 2a: types of intervention

HRT: trans people often refer to any drugs or hormones taken to facilitate transition as "HRT", but this is a dangerous simplification if you need to communicate your medical situation to a doctor. there's a bunch of different drugs you can take, and since it's next to impossible to construct an ethical double-blind study of transition drugs (because you're either withholding necessary medicine from a group with an insane suicide rate or asking cis people to grow cross gender bodyparts for science) all of these drugs are prescribed off-label and it was basically discovered by accident that any of these do poo poo. here's some of them (i'm talking about trans women in this section because for men Testosterone is basically all they need and the advantages and disadvantages of taking shitloads of steroids are pretty well known):

estrogen (generally in the form of estradiol). this is probably the one everyone assumes when you say HRT for a trans woman. in fact i've had multiple non-trans doctors ask me "how long i've been on estrogen" and be surprised when i gave them a longer list of drugs. back in the day they got it out of pregnant mare piss and pumped you full of dozens of milligrams and unsurprisingly lots of trans women used to drop dead of kidney and liver issues because estrogen is hard to process. nowadays we use other drugs to suppress your body's testosterone production so the estrogen works better in smaller amounts (more on those drugs later). a typical dose these days is 4-6mg daily administered sublingually.

risks include blood clots and liver/kidney issues. don't fuckin smoke if you're taking estrogen and make sure you stop taking it a couple weeks out from major surgeries. DVTs ain't nothing to gently caress with.

spironolactone - this is the one and only drug permitted to be prescribed as a testosterone blocker in the US. its on-label use is for heart disease and when you start this poo poo you get a lecture from your doctor not to stand up too fast because your blood pressure is going to be lower now and you might pass out. it just so happens to also nestle quite nicely into the testosterone receptors in your body, which tricks your balls into making less T. this is the key to using lower doses of estrogen.

drawbacks are that it lowers your blood pressure (which sucks if you were already healthy), it's a diuretic so you have to drink like 4x the water and eat infinity salt to make up for all the sodium your losing (i drink like 20 bottles of water a day, poo poo you not), and makes your kidneys suck at processing potassium so if someone slips you a salt substitute or low sodium soy sauce you'll poo poo your kidneys out and die. i havent eaten a banana in 3 years.

finasteride - this is sold under the trade name Propecia. it's on-label use is for mans to keep their hair from falling out. it's used off-label in a similar manner to spiro because it functions by preventing your body from processing testosterone into DHT. it's almost always prescribed only in conjunction with spiro because it's not as good at lowering your T production. a lot of WPATH members think it doesn't work at all but euro doctors love to prescribe it.

there's a few other t-blockers they prescribe in like thailand and eastern europe and i urge you not to take any of them if i didn't mention them here.

progesterone - commonly administered as medroxyprogesterone, this is a hormone that spikes in pregnant women. some women take it because the crazies over on susan's place thinks it makes your boobs develop nicer but most doctors ive talked to say there's no evidence for that and it doesn't do much. risks included heightened depression, lowered libido. sounds like a great thing to prescribe to people prone to offing themselves.

gender confirmation surgery: any surgery intended to help bring the body in line with the patient's mental self image. insensitive shitheads will call this a "sex change" but if you understood the section on why sex is a stupid word you understand why that's dumb as gently caress. here's some common ones.

breast augmentation/chest reduction - adding tits to trans women, chopping them off of trans men. nuff said.

vaginoplasty - making a vagina out of a penis. there's several methods. in the US it's penile inversion. there's the "thai method" where they use your scrote instead and sometimes hunks of your colon. people who go to thailand for their surgery have an insane religious devotion to the idea of it as the One True Vagina but getting your pussy made in thailand has all the same risks as going to the 3rd world for any other medical procedure with the bonus that american doctors won't touch you if you have an emergency because you're a walking liability now.

there's also variations like the zero-depth labiaplasty where they make a labia without a hole. they prefer this for old people who ain't having sex anyway because it reduces the time under anesthesia and bleed risk.

after you get your vagina you stop taking spiro because your balls make like 98% of the testosterone in your body, and you get to take less estrogen too (and eat bananas).

orchiectomy - this is where they just remove your balls and leave your dick because you like having a dick but you want to stop taking spiro/stop having to jam your balls up inside your body every day to tuck.

hysterectomy - you all know what this is and it shouldn't surprise you that trans men get them. lets them reduce their T dose.

phalloplasty - this is making a penis out of the clitors (which is enlarged by T) and a scrote out of the labia. you get those dope fake balls that dog show cheaters use too. there's a bunch of variations on this just like there are for vaginaplasty but i'm not as familiar with them. one thing to note is that a huge number of trans men opt to skip on this surgery because it has some drawbacks and it's not as far as advanced as lady surgeries.

voice surgery - for trans women; shorten the vocal chords to raise the voice's fundamental pitch.

"cosmetic" procedures - this would be all the poo poo you can do to your face and body to achieve the look of your gender identity. they're not actually cosmetic (imagine the horror of being a woman and looking at your adam's apple in the mirror every day), but historically insurance companies have lumped them in there to avoid paying, though this is changing (thanks obama). think poo poo like fat transfers, facial recontouring and implants, and so on.

other stuff:

voice therapy - helping people develop speech patterns and pitches that help project their gender identity.

movement therapy - help you "walk like a dude" or "walk like a chick"


the idea you need to be getting from this section is that transition is more complicated than just "is on HRT" or "had the surgery" and all these different factors affect medical decisions differently.

== 2b: healthcare scenarios

in this section i'm going to walk through a few different healthcare scenarios to help ground my actual technical recommendations later.

PCP visit (not transition related): i go to the doctor and i have a bad cough. i'm not out to my PCP (someone else is managing my hormones). he orders a couple tests and sends me on my way. my doctor doesn’t need to know my trans status.

ER visit: ER workflows are often to get the triage and admit done asap and then chart later when the patient is stable. if i am admitted unconscious or unable to respond, it may be necessary for the admit/triage system to let the physician and nurse know about my status. after all, the condition is not often entered up front so the computer has no way of knowing if they need to cut my clothes off (and be surprised by unexpected genitals) or if i just hit my head.

unfortunately this sort of "eager" notification can have downsides. there are countless stories of trans people being denied care by ER providers once their status is known (here's a listicle: http://www.cosmopolitan.com/health-fitness/a45167/transgender-healthcare/). a particularly horrifying case i heard anecdotally in my community was of a trans woman of color who was denied care for a gunshot when the ER doctor removed her clothes and found a penis. he said "that's not a woman, that's a friend of the family" and refused to treat.

because of that risk, this may be a policy decision on the hospital's part. eager notification may get people killed without proper training on trans issues for providers, but lack of notification may lead to deaths when providers explore avenues of diagnosis that aren't possible or order contraindicated drugs.

flu shot clinic: trans status doesn't need to be known, end of story. i'm going to take this simple case to draw an important distinction: which aspect of trans status is secret depends on where a patient is in their transition. if i am just starting hormones and am only out to a handful of people, my gender identity and new name are the secret. if i'm years along and living full time as my true self, it's my deadname and sex assigned at birth that are a secret.

gynecologist: if you’re a trans man, your gyno probably knows your trans status. on the other hand, your gynecologist's software might "helpfully" stop you from making appointments on line since men don't need to see gynos. avoiding automated microaggressions like this is critical in reducing the stress in your trans patients' lives.

urologist: i'm a trans woman who has had bottom surgery and have an appointment with the urologist for incontinence. there's several issues to attend to here.

disclosure - the urologist needs to know that i have a prostate, as prostate issues can be involved in incontinence. he may also need to familiarize himself with the bottom surgery procedure to understand how your urethra is configured and where you may have scar tissue. the challenge is that walking into a proctologist appointment to find that he already knows you're trans can be a shock. ideally, we should have a way to notify the patient that disclosure may be needed and have them sign off that they're agreeing by taking the appointment. we can't set the doctor up for failure so in this situation "don't disclose" is not an option.

charting - patient has decided to take the appointment despite disclosure. the doctor finds that the prostate is inflamed. in many software systems there are diagrams that doctors chart on, but i've never encountered one that has a vagina+prostate diagram. this leaves doctors in the sticky situation of either picking the male diagram and charting on the prostate or picking the female one and leaving some rather lengthy notes somewhere vaguely on the urethtra.


part 3: engineering recommendations

Okay, here's that meaty poo poo you are looking for. after 5 years as a trans person in the health care software industry, here's my thoughts on how to design a system that accommodates trans (and hopefully intersex) people to a reasonable degree.

i'm guided by the following principles:
  • Granularity of data. At some point, we're going to be sharing info that the patient really doesn't like sharing. we should try to minimize the amount of data we have to share if at all possible.
  • respect for privacy (duh)
  • minimization of risk

=== 3a: data model

Anatomical inventory: this is critical functionality for a medical record. individual elements for each organ and major system should be present. default to the typical set of organs for someone's sex assigned at birth, and allow the doctor to add or remove organs as necessary or note differences in the organs. this is critical not just for tracking what transitioning patients change in their body, but is honestly necessary for providing correct care for anybody who has any organ removed or changed. after all, cis women have hysterectomies too, and cis men have testicles removed. or kidneys. or colons. and so on.

genetic inventory: at a minimum, the ability to track which chromosomes a patient has (especially if they have more than 2). ideally you should be able to store full sequencing data but this is obviously is an insane amount of data and should probably only be stored for patients who are already known to have a genetic condition that's worth alerting on.

hormone history: a clinician should be able to easily retrieve my most recent hormone levels, as well as historical trends and averages. this can be critical for both diagnosis and for avoiding dangerous orders.

surgical history: not everything can be accounted for by anatomical inventory. breast implants, trach shaves, muscle implants, and so on, can affect treatment but are not technically anatomy.

patient-disclosed providers: patients should be able to select specific providers and specialties to which they would like to disclose by default.

required disclosures: an organization-maintained list that defines which providers definitely need disclosure to do their jobs and how this should be communicated to patients.

sex assigned at birth: this is the sex the doctor said the baby was. there's some stuff we just haven't studied enough to know why the gently caress sex makes a difference so you're still stuck using this (creatinine clearance is one such test).

gender identity: duh

legal name: what is the insurance company going to demand on the claim

legal sex: see legal name

preferred name: this should be distinct from nickname. epic uses the same field for both and it leads to pure hell in trying to decide whether it's safe to show a user the preferred name, as it could be "tom" short for "thomas" or "tina" for legal name "mike".

private data: this is basically an on-off switch that says whether nondisclosed users should see legal name and sex or preferred name and gender identity.

there's probably a lot of other poo poo i'm forgetting but this list gives you an idea of how to approach things.

=== 2b: functionality

here's some examples of the sort of functionality a system needs to have to be successful. this is nonexhaustive and should give you an idea how to extrapolate to areas of your system not addressed.

best practice alerting: EMRs frequently pop up warning when a provider does something contraindicated. a patient may go in for a condition that does not require disclosure, but at some point the doctor enters an order that is inappropriate based on the data we know about the patient. we should pop up an alert to the provider, tailored as narrowly as possible. for example, if the doctor orders a pregnancy test the alert may simply say "unnecessary test: uterus not present in anatomical inventory". if the doctor orders a referral to gynecology we may need to give a more specific alert or tell them to talk to the patient first (and which we do should probably be org defined).

pharmacy: clinical pharmacists are probably the clinicians i have the most respect for in the whole system. these guys probably save more lives than anybody else just from stopping stupid physician orders. this is one of the only providers who i think should always be disclosed. after all he is rarely going to actually meet the patient but he could stop a bad interaction before it starts. give them alerts when we can programmaticaly detect contradindication too.

ER: configure whether to disclose at admit time or not based on hospital policy and whether the patient was admitted conscious and responsive.

primary care: track whether PCP is also managing patient's hormones and transition care. if not, just show them whatever the non-private data is. patients have to maintain an ongoing relationship with their PCP and should feel in control of their disclosure (unless an order goes in that could cause a problem, obviously).

billing: store on the patient coverage what sex and name should be sent to the insurance company, as this can vary by carrier. smaller HMOs are often leaning toward accepting claims with "social information" rather than legal name and sex as long as it's still uniquely identifying. use this when generating claims. if claims need editing, maintain a separate queue where only trained and authorized users can review claims with potentially outing information on them.

patient engagement: don't automatically generate letters to transwomen telling them it's pap smear time. we're all really sick of getting these. stop reminding trans men about prostate exams. in general, provide faculties to generate directed communication on finder grained data than just sex. send mammogram reminders to anyone with breasts documented in the anatomical inventory. only send pap smears to those who were born with vaginas, etc.

claims: if your system processes claims (i actually worked on epics software for administering managed care health plans, lol i was evil) provide the ability to intelligently base claims for sex-discriminated services on either sex assigned at birth, gender identity, or both. definitely don't use legal sex at all. what does what alabama says my sex is have to do with my health? ditto authorizing referrals, etc.

rooming: drive who you room patients with off of gender identity and prefer single rooms when possible. except in alabama where it's illegal to room based on gender identity (im not joking about that btw, you will get your patient sent to jail).

case management: route new cases to case managers who are trained to deal with trans patients. transgender patients have a list of comorbidities a mile long.

radiology: prompt for disclosure for stuff like pelvic xrays. the last thing you want is the patient finding out that the tech can see their dick after the damage is already done.

diagrams: make diagrams modular. don't build a diagram of the whole reproductive system. instead have diagrams of the distinct organs and be able to smartly stitch them together based on the patient's anatomical inventory. same for any other sex-separated organ system. your doctors will thank you when they have less confusing notes.

the end

hopefully all that gave you some idea of the issues involved, the sensitive areas, pitfalls, and what you can do to get it right. thanks for reading.

this is really good, thank you. I think from a technical standpoint wrt data granularity its what I was thinking, but the big thing is the conditional disclosure stuff which I wouldn't have even considered. Before this I would have probably shown all available data to all providers since that's how I would prefer to work if I were a provider.

I imagine it can be hard to advocate for as its a lot of work since the dev side has to do more testing and development, but more critically you're telling the provider org to define a bunch of policies and procedures which is the #1 thing they suck at and then your new workflow is telling individual providers what to do which they loving hate cause they're all big babies.

Ironically that will be the easy part for my org if we start getting this kind of conditional disclosure data since we already control the workflows for the nurses so hiding or showing them something is not a big deal. Nurses are even bigger babies than doctors but with nurses you can put blinders on them and hide the stuff that upsets them which we do all the time already.

Xarn
Jun 26, 2015
Great effort post, but...

cis autodrag posted:

except in alabama where it's illegal to room based on gender identity (im not joking about that btw, you will get your patient sent to jail).

WTF??? Is that also for sex at birth, or just gender identity? And how does it get the patient in the jail instead of whatever administrator hosed it up?

Shifty Pony
Dec 28, 2004

Up ta somethin'


cis autodrag posted:

that poo poo sounds condescending as hell. just follow peoples leads on what they call their stuff, but really how often do you have a reason to refer to anyone's junk in conversation?

that reminds me of the preemptive training that I had at work when a lady in the same division as me transitioned. the Office of Civil Rights rep kept telling people that almost none of what was in the presentation was trans-specific. when going over things not to do or say the rep kept saying over and over again "These are not just for situations and conversations involving people who are transitioning! These are things you should never ever be doing/asking/saying at work. Even if it is you chatting or joking with your best friend who happens to be a coworker, do it after work when they are your friend and not your coworker - these topics are not appropriate for discussion in the office."

they also hammered the idea that if someone asks you to avoid using a word or to use a different word/name it is just plain professional courtesy to do so without demanding they provide some sort of justification for doing so.

The MUMPSorceress
Jan 6, 2012


^SHTPSTS

Gary’s Answer

Xarn posted:

Great effort post, but...


WTF??? Is that also for sex at birth, or just gender identity? And how does it get the patient in the jail instead of whatever administrator hosed it up?

the law was described to me as "men may not be roomed with women" where your sex is determined by what's in your birth certificate. which obviously you can't change in Alabama. and the patient gets arrested because they "tricked" the hospital into rooming them "wrong" with their gender presentation.

When it comes to being queer, it's always worse somewhere else.

atelier morgan
Mar 11, 2003

super-scientific, ultra-gay

Lipstick Apathy

cis autodrag posted:

the law was described to me as "men may not be roomed with women" where your sex is determined by what's in your birth certificate. which obviously you can't change in Alabama. and the patient gets arrested because they "tricked" the hospital into rooming them "wrong" with their gender presentation.

When it comes to being queer, it's always worse somewhere else.

i hate to defend alabama but you can change the gender marker on an alabama birth certificate, though they require that you both have a name change and have undergone srs

this is in stark contrast to my birth state of ohio which will actually not change gender on a birth certificate period ever

e: national center for transgender equality has a page that provides a summary of the document rules in each state which is a good resource for people changing that stuff since it is a great big pain

atelier morgan fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Dec 12, 2017

The MUMPSorceress
Jan 6, 2012


^SHTPSTS

Gary’s Answer

UberJew posted:

i hate to defend alabama but you can change the gender marker on an alabama birth certificate, though they require that you both have a name change and have undergone srs

this is in stark contrast to my birth state of ohio which will actually not change gender on a birth certificate period ever

Thanks that's helpful. That law was explained to me by a doctor who was collaborating on our bed planning design so I guess he had that bit wrong. So only pre or non op trans people would be banned from rooming with a cis person of their gender.

Requiring srs to change your birth certificate is still regressive as hell, especially if you base other laws on it. In my home state I would go to a men's prison because you have to have srs to change your bc.

Gynocentric Regime
Jun 9, 2010

by Cyrano4747

UberJew posted:

i hate to defend alabama but you can change the gender marker on an alabama birth certificate, though they require that you both have a name change and have undergone srs

this is in stark contrast to my birth state of ohio which will actually not change gender on a birth certificate period ever

Either way sucks for us non-op people, why couldn’t I have been born in Oregon?

atelier morgan
Mar 11, 2003

super-scientific, ultra-gay

Lipstick Apathy

cis autodrag posted:

Requiring srs to change your birth certificate is still regressive as hell, especially if you base other laws on it. In my home state I would go to a men's prison because you have to have srs to change your bc.

oh yeah absolutely still garbage trash, i was only reminded of it b/c i'm in the middle of my quest for new identifications (when i can rouse myself from current depressive fugue) right now and am still mad at ohio

Shame Boy
Mar 2, 2010

Glazier posted:

Either way sucks for us non-op people, why couldn’t I have been born in Oregon?

wait you have to change your birth certificate through the original state that issued it rather than your state of residency?

Gynocentric Regime
Jun 9, 2010

by Cyrano4747

ate all the Oreos posted:

wait you have to change your birth certificate through the original state that issued it rather than your state of residency?

That's the way it is U.S., each state keeps their own records and decides how and if it can be amended. It's why Barack Obama's birth certificate was from Hawaii even though he hadn't lived there for years and was serving as another state's Senator.

EDIT: Fortunately I'll be able to change my passport with just HRT and most places will then accept that as proof and make the change.

Gynocentric Regime fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Dec 12, 2017

atelier morgan
Mar 11, 2003

super-scientific, ultra-gay

Lipstick Apathy

ate all the Oreos posted:

wait you have to change your birth certificate through the original state that issued it rather than your state of residency?

yep

just another reason on the pile of poo poo that sucks for trans people

Kazinsal
Dec 13, 2011


Anyone have a short braindump of trans info for Alaskans? Friend of mine lives up there and has pretty much no resources at her disposal. :( Anything helps

Shame Boy
Mar 2, 2010

Ok so how's that gonna work for my wife, she was born in New Zealand and her family moved to the US when she was young so she has full (in fact, dual) citizenship. I guess we'd get it changed in New Zealand? Which is lucky, since they're pretty permissive as far as I can tell...

The MUMPSorceress
Jan 6, 2012


^SHTPSTS

Gary’s Answer

ate all the Oreos posted:

Ok so how's that gonna work for my wife, she was born in New Zealand and her family moved to the US when she was young so she has full (in fact, dual) citizenship. I guess we'd get it changed in New Zealand? Which is lucky, since they're pretty permissive as far as I can tell...

Yep.

Fun fact, US birth certificates and name records (and amendments to them) are public records in most states and any rear end in a top hat can request a copy, which is one tool doxxers use if they can get your legal name.

Also, at least in Wisconsin, they amend your records by just crossing out the old thing and writing in the new thing. So my marriage license just has my deadname scratched out and my legal name above it in the groom field still. Ditto my birth certificate.

atelier morgan
Mar 11, 2003

super-scientific, ultra-gay

Lipstick Apathy

ate all the Oreos posted:

Ok so how's that gonna work for my wife, she was born in New Zealand and her family moved to the US when she was young so she has full (in fact, dual) citizenship. I guess we'd get it changed in New Zealand? Which is lucky, since they're pretty permissive as far as I can tell...

if her parents were US citizens at the time of her birth then she should have a certificate of report of birth that works as the US birth certificate and can be amended

if they weren't then she'd have to get it changed in NZ or not!, look down for accurate information instead

atelier morgan fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Dec 12, 2017

Gynocentric Regime
Jun 9, 2010

by Cyrano4747

ate all the Oreos posted:

Ok so how's that gonna work for my wife, she was born in New Zealand and her family moved to the US when she was young so she has full (in fact, dual) citizenship. I guess we'd get it changed in New Zealand? Which is lucky, since they're pretty permissive as far as I can tell...

Ah that I do know about because my sister was adopted from Pohnpei. What she'll need is a replacement Certificate of Naturalization and believe it or not all you need is a letter from the doctor, corrected DL or other ID, or a court order. They even specifically say "Proof of sex reassignment surgery or any other specific medical treatment is not required to issue the requested document in the changed gender."

https://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/AFM/HTML/AFM/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-1067/Chapter10-22.html

vvv Believe it or not FLHSMV uses the same standard so I should be able to get my DL changed relatively easy. vvv

Gynocentric Regime fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Dec 12, 2017

Shame Boy
Mar 2, 2010

cis autodrag posted:

Yep.

Fun fact, US birth certificates and name records (and amendments to them) are public records in most states and any rear end in a top hat can request a copy, which is one tool doxxers use if they can get your legal name.

in Florida the entire voter registration list is public, name address phone everything. the only way you can ever get your name hidden is if you go in person and present a compelling reason (like you're being actively stalked) by which time it's already been indexed a ton anyway. thanks guys!

Glazier posted:

Ah that I do know about because my sister was adopted from Pohnpei. What she'll need is a replacement Certificate of Naturalization and believe it or not all you need is a letter from the doctor, corrected DL or other ID, or a court order. They even specifically say "Proof of sex reassignment surgery or any other specific medical treatment is not required to issue the requested document in the changed gender."

https://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/AFM/HTML/AFM/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-1067/Chapter10-22.html

oh that's neat, thanks

The MUMPSorceress
Jan 6, 2012


^SHTPSTS

Gary’s Answer

Glazier posted:

Ah that I do know about because my sister was adopted from Pohnpei. What she'll need is a replacement Certificate of Naturalization and believe it or not all you need is a letter from the doctor, corrected DL or other ID, or a court order. They even specifically say "Proof of sex reassignment surgery or any other specific medical treatment is not required to issue the requested document in the changed gender."

https://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/AFM/HTML/AFM/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-1067/Chapter10-22.html

vvv Believe it or not FLHSMV uses the same standard so I should be able to get my DL changed relatively easy. vvv

In Wisconsin the dmv just pulls your social security info onto your license and social security also uses the letter from a doctor standard. I think a lot of states are like that actually, probably because they're trying to get to the realid standard so they can't be as big of dicks as they can with local records like birth certificates.

PS Hillary Clinton is the person who moved US passports to the letter from a doctor standard while she was secretary of state. What we could have had :smith:

Zamujasa
Oct 27, 2010



Bread Liar
Changed my pronouns in my Twitter bio a week or so ago and someone finally noticed and asked me about it.

So then I proceeded to write what was originally a short "well, uh" response and then that just sort of spiraled into a big "here's all my thoughts about my gender bullshit, and also i'm trans i guess" public coming-out post.

People were supportive but it doesn't feel like the accomplishment people made it out to be. I just wrote words. :confuoot:


cis autodrag posted:

big ol post about everything, goddamn
this was a good read, thanks. are bananas and potassium poo poo really that bad for trans women? i don't want to accidentally put my partner (or my future self???) in the hospital from a banana/strawberry smoothie


also w/r/t gender markers, is there a good resource on name changes and that sort of poo poo on a state-by-state basis? my partner's in a weird position where she was born overseas so the "notice of birth" or w/e is a complicating factor. she'd originally paid some cash to an in-town lawyer to help sort everything out, and then it turned out that after a ton of years he was actually a big fraud and vanished :downs:

The MUMPSorceress
Jan 6, 2012


^SHTPSTS

Gary’s Answer

Zamujasa posted:



this was a good read, thanks. are bananas and potassium poo poo really that bad for trans women? i don't want to accidentally put my partner (or my future self???) in the hospital from a banana/strawberry smoothie

Yes. Spironolactone is a potassium sparing diuretic. That means your kidneys are working double time but not passing potassium very quickly. This results in potassium buildup in the kidneys if you take in too much too quickly and can lead to renal failure. The biggest risks are salt substitutes and bananas because of their relatively high amount of potassium, but you should really be minimizing intake as much as possible. Also upping your sodium intake because you are losing a lot of it because, again, it's a diuretic.

None of that applies if you've had your testes removed (not on Spiro anymore), or are using a different testosterone blocker (which you won't be in the US because the fda doesn't allow it).

Also note that estrogen ups your risk of blood clots and nicotine makes it worse so if either of you smoke, now is a really good time to knock that poo poo off.

Shame Boy
Mar 2, 2010

cis autodrag posted:

Yes. Spironolactone is a potassium sparing diuretic. That means your kidneys are working double time but not passing potassium very quickly. This results in potassium buildup in the kidneys if you take in too much too quickly and can lead to renal failure. The biggest risks are salt substitutes and bananas because of their relatively high amount of potassium, but you should really be minimizing intake as much as possible. Also upping your sodium intake because you are losing a lot of it because, again, it's a diuretic.

None of that applies if you've had your testes removed (not on Spiro anymore), or are using a different testosterone blocker (which you won't be in the US because the fda doesn't allow it).

Also note that estrogen ups your risk of blood clots and nicotine makes it worse so if either of you smoke, now is a really good time to knock that poo poo off.

see i've talked to my pharmacist friend about this a lot and he says that the whole "don't consume potassium at all if you can help it" is bad advice since you still, you know, need it to live, and as long as you don't eat a ton of them bananas here and there are fine. obviously do whatever your actual doctor says and don't take my word for it, but idk i tend to trust him he's real fuckin' apt on drug interactions and catches poo poo doctors miss all the time at the hospital where he works :shrug:

the sodium thing is definitely an issue though, one of my friends wasn't careful about that and wound up getting super sick and loopy and fading in and out of consiousness and all sorts of other bad poo poo

Shame Boy
Mar 2, 2010

also another friend's wife got a blood clot which broke up and caused multiple separate strokes over the course of an evening at the ripe old age of... 28 :ohdear:

luckily she recovered completely but yeah that was terrifying

Ciaphas
Nov 20, 2005

> BEWARE, COWARD :ovr:


UberJew posted:

the q stands for questioning too

i would strongly recommend you get a therapist or if you have one talk to them about your perspective on identity, your body and gender

this post sounds a lot like how i thought before i came out to myself (and i mean i still think i'm fat and ugly but at least i know its maladaptive thinking) and it took my worries and concerns and perspective being taken seriously by a professional for me to take them seriously myself, which is not to say that you're definitely trans by any stretch, but just you know, throwing it out there

i guess it's not impossible, lord knows nothing is in 2017 the Year of President of the United States of America Donald "Grab 'em by the pussy" Trump

but the simpler answer for me just seems to be that i'm 300# and it's my own drat fault for not taking care of myself or letting myself fall off the wagon when i tried (or getting unlucky genetics, maybe, but that feels like shifting blame)


i know one thing for sure though and that's that body hair is loving gross and i'd laser every last bit of it off if i could get away with it

Ciaphas fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Dec 13, 2017

The MUMPSorceress
Jan 6, 2012


^SHTPSTS

Gary’s Answer

ate all the Oreos posted:

see i've talked to my pharmacist friend about this a lot and he says that the whole "don't consume potassium at all if you can help it" is bad advice since you still, you know, need it to live, and as long as you don't eat a ton of them bananas here and there are fine. obviously do whatever your actual doctor says and don't take my word for it, but idk i tend to trust him he's real fuckin' apt on drug interactions and catches poo poo doctors miss all the time at the hospital where he works :shrug:

the sodium thing is definitely an issue though, one of my friends wasn't careful about that and wound up getting super sick and loopy and fading in and out of consiousness and all sorts of other bad poo poo

This is what I meant by too much and too often. You need less potassium and your intake needs to be more spread out. I had a couple really scary kidney function tests in a row and my doctor narrowed it down to the banana yogurt I was eating at lunch.

You'll literally get enough potassium from water and lower potassium foods. I suppose you could have a banana split once in a while, but bananas aren't that great anyway so why bother?

The MUMPSorceress
Jan 6, 2012


^SHTPSTS

Gary’s Answer

Ciaphas posted:

i guess it's not impossible, lord knows nothing is in 2017 the Year of President of the United States of America Donald "Grab 'em by the pussy" Trump

but the simpler answer for me just seems to be that i'm 300# and it's my own drat fault for not taking care of myself or letting myself fall off the wagon when i tried (or getting unlucky genetics, maybe, but that feels like shifting blame)


i know one thing for sure though and that's that body hair is loving gross and i'd laser every last bit of it off if i could get away with it

OK, in your own best interest I think we should cut this avenue of discussion. You have a lot of different thoughts you are dealing with and you need a professional to help you work through this. I don't want this thread to play amateur psychologist to your detriment. If you need help figuring out how to find a mental health provider who you're comfortable with with feel free to ask though.

Ciaphas
Nov 20, 2005

> BEWARE, COWARD :ovr:


like i imagine shaving the peach fuzz off of my arms and hands, then th ink about being asked by people at work (or, oh god, family) why I did that and I shudder massively

i outright envy the inner strength, fortitude, force of will, whatever, all of you who are openly trans must have, to declare it openly and continue with it in the face of, well, everything

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Ciaphas
Nov 20, 2005

> BEWARE, COWARD :ovr:


cis autodrag posted:

OK, in your own best interest I think we should cut this avenue of discussion. You have a lot of different thoughts you are dealing with and you need a professional to help you work through this. I don't want this thread to play amateur psychologist to your detriment. If you need help figuring out how to find a mental health provider who you're comfortable with with feel free to ask though.

yeah, good point, sorry. i forget where i'm posting and who i'm talking to sometimes v:shobon:v

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