Steve2911 posted:It's played slightly more comedically than forebodingly Which is the whole problem. Like, Hux trying to intone "SUPREME LEADER SNOKE" in an intimidating way is this total dramatic misfire. Among many other things. Snoke comes front and center early. He talks a lot. He's present a lot. And yet we still don't know anything about him, not really. In fact, his whole presentation invites you to think he's some sort of facade. The Emperor, meanwhile, is this malevolent presence. Then Snoke dies, after basically trying to play Palpatine in the throne room. And people might say, well, hey, Snoke is a cheap imposter of Palpatine, that's the idea, that's text, but then Kylo is a cheap imposter of Anakin, Snoke is a cheap imposter of Palpatine, Hux is a cheap imposter of Piett or something, the First Order are cosplaying the Empire... but the First Order is set to conquer 'the whole galaxy in a matter of weeks', has a huge fleet with massive dreadnaughts, hardly cares about the loss of Starkiller, and is hardly incompetent because they flatten the entire Resistance in TLJ.
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Dec 13, 2017 10:29
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So The First Order is the current far right uprising in the US? TLJ does feel pretty applicable to the current climate, though it almost definitely wasn't intentional.
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Dec 13, 2017 10:38
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Watched it today, all the spoilers from the last couple pages are accurate. The thing with the kid at the end...? It didn't look like he used the force to raise his broom, he literally just raises his hand in the air while holding it like the doll of Luke holding his lightsaber that he was looking at 5 seconds prior. If anything I thought it was supposed to be more a signal of the rebellion 'spark' growing since it had a very distinct shot of his secret rebellion ring he apparently picked up from Rose as he lifted it.
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Dec 13, 2017 11:26
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Unmature posted:I saw The Last Jedi at LucasFilm today. AMA.
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Dec 13, 2017 11:35
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Milli posted:Watched it today, all the spoilers from the last couple pages are accurate. Yeah it's just meant to reflect Luke's line about this being the start of the Resistance proper. It's a nice little shot.
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Dec 13, 2017 11:38
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Saw it 1 hour ago, AMA. WTF is up with the Snoke writeoff. Do I have to read a tie-in novel?
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Dec 13, 2017 13:51
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Adaptabullshit posted:Saw it 1 hour ago, AMA. No. The tie-in stuff hypes Snoke up as a threat that even Palpatine was afraid of.
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Dec 13, 2017 13:58
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Milky Moor posted:No. The tie-in stuff hypes Snoke up as a threat that even Palpatine was afraid of. Wow. Then they just hosed everything up. Nothing is explained of Snoke. He just is there grumbling and scheming and getting killed by Kylo Ren
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Dec 13, 2017 14:04
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Taintrunner posted:The Force is actually the immortal science of Marxism-Leninsm and Episode 9 is a full-on class war against the disaster capitalist class inshallah Milky Moor posted:No. The tie-in stuff hypes Snoke up as a threat that even Palpatine was afraid of. lmao loving the mental image of rian johnson feeding this stuff to authors while holding in peals of laughter
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Dec 13, 2017 14:12
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Knights of Ren seems like something they either forgot or they're storing for the last movie
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Dec 13, 2017 14:48
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I was promised that this movie would expose new aspects and insights into the Force, save for the idea that there will always be a light side even without the Jedi, which is something I never questioned. Instead it just repeated things I already knew.
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Dec 13, 2017 14:55
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Adaptabullshit posted:Wow. Then they just hosed everything up. Nothing is explained of Snoke. He just is there grumbling and scheming and getting killed by Kylo Ren Why is getting rid of an uninteresting character in favour of a good one loving it up?
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Dec 13, 2017 15:01
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Whoever's seen this: do I have to suffer through Kylo Ren being treated as a tragic, Byronic character and grey morality rather than the genocidal sociopathic rear end in a top hat that he is?
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Dec 13, 2017 15:05
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Al Cu Ad Solte posted:Whoever's seen this: do I have to suffer through Kylo Ren being treated as a tragic, Byronic character and grey morality rather than the genocidal sociopathic rear end in a top hat that he is? Yes but then the film reveals he actually is just an rear end in a top hat.
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Dec 13, 2017 15:07
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Given what's in the dialogue, i have a hard time believing IX won't be about either or both a) rehabilitating the rear end in a top hat in the final minute with zero in-film support given / b) Kylo and Rey becoming a couple with even less supporting evidence that people complained about in Attack of the Clones in respect to Anakin and Padme. I have to admit it could set up a pretty ballsy cultural reflection in the subsequent trilogy. Three movies of their child working to rehabilitate Kylo only to be killed by their father like baby boomers are doing to their children in America. (I know, that would never happen)
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Dec 13, 2017 15:30
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That casual broomstick force pull at the end. Mwah! I loved this film!
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Dec 13, 2017 15:33
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Jiro posted:Probably have a heart attack on her way to...........oh I dunno let's say Moe's. I just want you to know that I appreciate this reference. mastershakeman posted:this movie isn't about rey, its about kylo. rey is just a mary sue so w/e It's handy when someone calls Rey a Mary Sue, because it so fundamentally misunderstands Rey as a character, and the very concept of what a "Mary Sue" is, that I can easily dismiss every other opinion that person has.
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Dec 13, 2017 15:35
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thrawn527 posted:I just want you to know that I appreciate this reference. I thought a Mary Sue was the cool character that everybody loves and has all the cool stuff? Because by the end of TFA she defeats the bad guy with a lightsaber, is an excellent pilot with a cool robot sidekick, controls the Millennium Falcon, has Chewbacca as a co-pilot, is hugged by Princess Leia even though Leia has no reason to give a poo poo about her at all, and is going to be trained as a Jedi by Luke Skywalker. It sounds like fan fiction written by a 13-year old girl.
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Dec 13, 2017 15:44
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Just got out of a midnight showing in Noo Zulland. gently caress that movie was good. There was like 5 points that I thought "THere's been so much poo poo, this has to be the end point" and the fucker just kept on trucking. Didn't feel rushed, and didn't feel like the better part of 3 hours either. Also, holy poo poo the sound design in this movie is top notch, and that loving warp scene. My god. So good Edit; Sorry for so much swears, I'm riding a 18 hour day on caffeine fumes and excitement from the film.
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Dec 13, 2017 15:44
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3 A.M. Radio posted:I thought a Mary Sue was the cool character that everybody loves and has all the cool stuff? Because by the end of TFA she defeats the bad guy with a lightsaber, is an excellent pilot with a cool robot sidekick, controls the Millennium Falcon, has Chewbacca as a co-pilot, is hugged by Princess Leia even though Leia has no reason to give a poo poo about her at all, and is going to be trained as a Jedi by Luke Skywalker. A Mary Sue describes a character in literal fan fiction that is a self insert for the author. Suddenly on the Enterprise there is a new character who looks just like the author, and who Kirk and Spock are so amazed is super good at everything, and everyone wants to be around her, and is a way for an author to get to "live" with their favorite characters, and have those characters be in awe of their own existence. She's better at science than Spock, better at medicine than Bones, better at being cocky than Kirk. It doesn't apply outside of the world of fan fiction, except maybe if a new director/author has an self insert into someone else's world. So it doesn't apply to Rey, unless you see Rey as a JJ Abrams self insert, and even then it doesn't really work. It certainly doesn't apply to just being a new character who is good at the Force, because a poo poo ton of Star Wars characters are good at the Force. That's actually how the Force works. She's not seen as being a better pilot than Luke, who blew up the drat Death Star using the Force in his first movie. She may be more powerful at the Force than Luke, but Luke was never shown to be all that powerful with the Force, and she's not shown as being any more powerful in the Force than Anakin, who is called "the chosen one" when he was an eight year old. The only thing you referenced that doesn't apply to Luke in the OT is controlling the Falcon, which honestly who cares? And I guess getting hugged by Leia when they haven't met before, which, again, has nothing to do with being a Mary Sue. She's a strong, capable character who is good at what she does, like tons of characters in tons of movies. From the EU, Corran Horn is basically a Mary Sue, though that's not actually fan fiction (depending on how you view the EU) so even there it doesn't really apply. Though he is totally a self insert by the author.
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Dec 13, 2017 16:00
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Yeah, I mean, whether or not you want to call Rey a "Mary Sue", she's a character defined by being good at everything and never needing help or advice from anyone else. Looking at those lines from the new movie, it looks like Yoda even says Rey has nothing left to learn from Luke after knowing about the Force for a week at most, and her only "flaws" are...being too caring and wanting to have a family? This would be just as bad if it were a male character, but because Rey has been built up by people as the avatar of the self esteem of every little girl living in a first world country, to criticize how derivative, insipid, and generally uninteresting the character is can be written off as a moral failing. People say this is similar to Luke and Anakin, but those characters are way less naturally competent(until they get some training, their connection with the Force is pretty much just good instincts) and loved by all, and their flaws are a large part of the narrative. "Strong female character" is supposed to mean "strongly written", not "really good at everything and unassailably admirable".
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Dec 13, 2017 16:03
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Decius posted:She's so much the "Magic Negro" trope they even decided to have an African-Mexican women playing her. are you trying to make some sort of ridiculous pedantic point here to get around that Rey is shown as the best most greatest person ever at like 20 different things? (i.e. the term can only be used for a self insert even when it's clearly evolved past that). she's better at fixing the falcon than han/chewie, better at piloting it, better at fighting than kylo, better at the force than kylo or luke in the old movies, better at not needing no man, etcetc don't get me wrong, I liked Daisy Ridley a ton but I was hoping her character would be a hell of a lot more interesting (falling to dark side, a million other options). instead shes just the best that's why getting upset she doesnt do much in this movie isn't worth getting upset about. kylo is way more interesting mastershakeman fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Dec 13, 2017 |
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Dec 13, 2017 16:07
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Remember, no one taught Luke you could use the Force to move things with your mind. He just figured that poo poo out on his own while hanging upside down in a frozen cave. Those are some pretty good instincts.
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Dec 13, 2017 16:08
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The Snoke thing is just the best possible thing.
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Dec 13, 2017 16:11
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There were three years in between A New Hope and Empire that we didn't see, so the presumption that he just figured that out on his own isn't necessarily accurate. Besides, Rey does all that Luke does, plus uses the mind trick, has Anakin's laser sword calling out to her for some reason, and manages to beat the main villain of the trilogy within the first few days of ever having seen a laser sword. Plus everything that happens in this new movie, which takes place right after the previous one.
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Dec 13, 2017 16:18
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R. Guyovich posted:lmao 
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Dec 13, 2017 16:23
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Steve2911 posted:Yes but then the film reveals he actually is just an rear end in a top hat.
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Dec 13, 2017 16:28
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Steve2911 posted:So The First Order is the current far right uprising in the US?
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Dec 13, 2017 16:32
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Beeez posted:There were three years in between A New Hope and Empire that we didn't see, so the presumption that he just figured that out on his own isn't necessarily accurate. Besides, Rey does all that Luke does, plus uses the mind trick, has Anakin's laser sword calling out to her for some reason, and manages to beat the main villain of the trilogy within the first few days of ever having seen a laser sword. Plus everything that happens in this new movie, which takes place right after the previous one. Who in gods name would have taught Luke other than himself, were there other Jedi around? The Force doesn't seem like something you need much training with if you know or have experienced the basics of it already. There is no leveling up, training or experience needed, it's all about pure force of will. Luke didn't need much actual training once he knew how to TK things with the force, to lift the X-Wing, he just needed to actually believe unequivocally that he could do it. Luke's real need for training was in combat, because he had never really fought with a sword or weapon before. Rey, is already an adept fighter with a staff before she "awakens", doesn't lack belief in herself or the force, the Jedi Mind Trick she saw, and literally experienced Kylo doing the same thing to her, so she knows it's possible, and what it feels like. I'm not saying it's the most interesting thing in the world, but it's relatively consistent for series logic.
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Dec 13, 2017 16:45
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That's fine though. They are both extremely silly conceptually and looking too close is probably a bad idea.
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Dec 13, 2017 16:45
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Beeez posted:There were three years in between A New Hope and Empire that we didn't see, so the presumption that he just figured that out on his own isn't necessarily accurate. Besides, Rey does all that Luke does, plus uses the mind trick, has Anakin's laser sword calling out to her for some reason, and manages to beat the main villain of the trilogy within the first few days of ever having seen a laser sword. Plus everything that happens in this new movie, which takes place right after the previous one. I mean it was established in the previous film that the old crazy hermit was telepathically communicating with him and it's established in Empire that Ben literally is showing up as a ghost to tell him where to go to properly continue his training, it's essentially implied that Ben has maybe given him hints on how to use poo poo. Also Luke has to concentrate extremely hard to even pull that poo poo off, and this is after a whole movie where he culmination of his tapping into the Force is a last-ditch effort that wouldn't have been able to happen if he, yet again, did not get his rear end pulled off the fiery talons of certain death by someone else - in this case, Han swooping in and saving the day. In comparison, with zero training whatsoever, Rey pulls the same exact "move poo poo with my mind" bit that Luke does much faster, and more powerfully than someone who is clearly trained since it zooms right past the guy we assume is moving the hilt and into her hand. And then about two minutes later she closes her eyes and vaults right over Kylo's abilities as a lightsaber user. After what was probably just in-story hours earlier being able to counter his mind probing with her own. Perfectly. They did not even have the wherewithal to go "well, if we make her the Next Great Force User, what if she's so powerful at wielding it her lack of training makes it a huge liability and that she has to learn to lasso and tame her ability? Like what if she counter-probes Ren and once he flees the room, she breaks down because she's seen every little bit of pain and sadness he's ever felt in his life, exposing the reality of who Han is - a guy who wasn't ever really fit to raise a kid - and Leia being torn between being a leader and being a mother to the point where she isn't able to be there the moment Kylo falls to the dark side? What if along with the hilt, trees and earth itself is yanked from the ground? What if she goes up to the brink of killing her opponent in the lightsaber duel like Luke does in Jedi?" That first one has the added benefit of deepening the relationship between Rey and Han from "YER A LEGEND" and "I LIKE YER STYLE, KID" to something more substantial, allowing for the moment when Han steps out onto the catwalk to confront his son mean more to her - and us, by extension - because we are now, with zero ambiguity, seeing this as Han's last ditch attempt at redemption for failing his son. But she is just preternaturally skilled. And dramatically inert because they started her about three steps from the end of what would be her arc in the first movie. The entire character in TFA is dependent on Daisy Ridley being an extremely charming person. But her charisma can only carry the character so far before one bumps up against the edge of "but what's her inner journey here". In TFA it's a mystery box because gently caress if JJ ever wants to write a story with straightforward stakes that aren't "the world will end". It sounds like Rian at least came up with "thinks she can save someone, save everyone, but learns that some people, it turns out, don't want to be saved." Which is at least something that 1) hasn't been the explicit inner journey in a Star Wars movie yet, and 2) gives her more focus than "this droid needs to go to this place". I can really see why it seems like a lot of this movie is taking a bunch of the vague setups in the previous movie and burning them to the ground and installing actual changes in how things are in the story. Because that's what a story is supposed to do.
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Dec 13, 2017 17:06
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Yeah, Old Ben might've provided some direction during those years between A New Hope and Empire, but also someone teaching themselves over years after learning the basics of something, and still requiring some more teaching from an accomplished master, is quite a bit different from someone becoming the most powerful and important person in the Galaxy in a matter of days. Look at Empire, where Luke is told he shouldn't leave because he's not ready to face Vader, he fails to save Han until, like, a year later, and Lando is the one who saves Leia. Leia then has to save Luke, because he wasn't ready to confront Vader. Compare it to the new movie, where Rey no longer needs Luke in a matter of days and apparently escapes the First Order's flagship by herself off-screen. It's not just that it doesn't really make narrative sense, it's also that "the previous heroes failed completely off-screen, here's a new hero who's better and more significant than all of them combined" is derivative and uninteresting, plus doesn't really do the old characters justice. They might be able to mitigate the latter point a bit if Ghost Luke actively plays a part in training the new generation of space monks in the next one, but as it stands it gives Rey an identity that's based entirely on having traits of other characters, but better and more special, which is uninteresting, and doesn't honor the characters that played such a major role in making the series what it was in the first place.
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Dec 13, 2017 17:26
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Just seen it. Went in unspoiled and the Snoke/Kylo/Rey stuff was by far the best part of the movie, the rest.....eh especially the Resistance plots and the forced drama between Poe and the Commander. By the end of it the Resistance is down to like 10 people and the Falcon. I really wish they had fixed the sense of scale between the FO and the Resistance, it was a problem in TFA and even worse here.
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Dec 13, 2017 17:28
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I just saw it at a midnight screening in Australia and here are my 2c, having not read ANY spoilers going into the film. I was disappointed, but for different reasons than it seems most people here were. I loved Snoke, and his death, and I don't see it as bait and switch because it's the community that got worked up about his history, not something the filmmakers did deliberately. He was prominent in the first half of the film, then died in an unpredictable-until-it-became-predictable kind of way. But I'm glad it happened mid film and not near the end, because then it all just would have been ROTJ 2.0. It allowed Ren to come to the fore, set up a duel against Luke that actually mattered (until it didn't) and set up a future where Kylo vs Rei is the main force battle (will they, won't they?) without people getting in their way. There were some excellent set pieces. The land-speeder vs AT-AT battle on the salt planet was amazing, purely from a visual point of view. The red and white contrast looked amazing. That third act (including the Luke vs Kylo duel) was great, but then ruined when everyone seemed quite jolly and happy on the Falcon, having just lost 90% of the remaining forces (again). I thought the boy picking up the broom at the end was definitely a force pull, and is used to show that Rei will not be the last jedi either, there will be people out there that she can train that don't have to come from a bloodline of greatness. Like Rei, randoms can get the force power born into them naturally. I didn't have a problem with that bit at all, even if it did feel a bit Harry Potter. Other highlight for me was when whatsherface Admiral suicided by warping into Snoke's ship. Again, the visual effect of that and absence of sound left my whole theatre in silence for a good few seconds, then applause. Was awesome. But overall, I was disappointed with how frequently the film jumped around, and how much stupid out-of-place comedy there was. One liners, modern earth references ("Chrome Dome"), Luke brushing imaginary dust off his shoulder like Bruce Lee. They just felt so out of place in a Star Wars film. I mean, I know star wars films have funny moments, but they are appropriate in nature and in timing. This had inappropriate things at inappropriate times and it just didn't feel right. Maybe because it's 1AM and I haven't slept and it will get better on subsequent watching, but this was the main thing that just had me uneasy through the whole film. Also, CGI Yoda is bad and the dissonance removed me from the film (just like Tarkin in Rogue One). Mainly, though, it's a massive plot hole that I can't resolve (though I'm sure someone can) that ruined most of the film for me. The resistance escape on the shuttles is thwarted when the Order is informed of the plan, by the doublecrossing codebreaker (Del Toro). But the codebreaker didn't know about that part of the plan because Fin and Rose didn't know about it, it was revealed after they left the ship. Dhur, I just realised of course Fin and Rose knew, they were communicating with Poe the entire time, even through hyperspace. Just... blurgh. Ranking of star wars films (subject to change after rewatching) 1. Empire 2. A New Hope 3. Rogue One 4. Force Awakens 5. ROTJ 6. Last Jedi 7-9. The loving prequels So... bad film overall, but still with some amazingly good scenes. Forum Joe fucked around with this message at 17:34 on Dec 13, 2017 |
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Dec 13, 2017 17:31
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You put Rogue One at the #3 so I have no idea if your review/opinions have any any merit.
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Dec 13, 2017 17:45
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Forum Joe posted:I just saw it at a midnight screening in Australia and here are my 2c, having not read ANY spoilers going into the film. Yeah that sums it up nicely. I'd agree with the landspeeder vs AT AT battle being great visually but the rest of it was pretty terrible. I get the forced Poe character development but really? what were they expecting to happen charging the AT ATs, which by the way, didn't actually do that much in the end so no idea why they needed that new design. And yep there seemed to be a ton of comedy and gags which often ruined the intensity and build up.
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Dec 13, 2017 17:46
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Milli posted:Watched it today, all the spoilers from the last couple pages are accurate. The broom flies into his hand when he goes to pick it up. It's a short distance, so it's easy to miss.
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Dec 13, 2017 17:57
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I'm willing to put Episode 1 above this... almost. There were good parts for sure, but man, some of the stuff was dumb, really dumb. Snoke death didn't get a cheer, as it was pretty obvious what was happening on screen. But a few seconds later when the Lobster Guards all got ready to fight the cinema erupted as Rey and Kylo teamed up. E: Yeah, kid uses the force, the broom is leaning against the wall and springs up into his hand a good foot or so. E2: Forum Joe posted:Other highlight for me was when whatsherface Admiral suicided by warping into Snoke's ship. Again, the visual effect of that and absence of sound left my whole theatre in silence for a good few seconds, then applause. Was awesome.  drunkill fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Dec 13, 2017 |
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Dec 13, 2017 17:59
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gently caress them for not rewriting it so Luke could live after Carrie died. What utter horseshit.
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Dec 13, 2017 18:25
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DrNutt posted:gently caress them for not rewriting it so Luke could live after Carrie died. What utter horseshit. What? Why?
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Dec 13, 2017 18:32
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