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Dancer
May 23, 2011

Chill la Chill posted:

Some 18CZ questions. Please keep in mind i've only played 1846 so far so I'm basing my knowledge from how 18xx's work from there.

The game keeps talking about purchasing and selling shares to the bank. There's no stock market (what is what I assume is being referred to as the "bank pool") in the game and the company charters do not hold any shares to sell, so how do the companies even gain money? Is it purely from the initial capitalization and from 100% retention of dividends?

What is the reason for the train exchange markers? The rules state that acquisition of smaller companies results in keeping the counters around for the benefit of the larger company anyway.

Do the local railway locations mean anything, or is it just for flavor? I don't understand why there's different prices for local trains unless it's just that later players get penalized arbitrarily.

The rulebook does not define "debt" on page 19. Is debt = difference required to purchase a train? I don't like that the game requires note-taking in order to remember the "interest charge" that takes into effect at the end of the game, but I've learned to supply pencil and paper for these games anyway.

Do trains get another OR after being scrapped? Is it immediate? The rulebook just says to "scrap trains" but doesn't define it. The rulebook also doesn't define what it means by "scrapping" trains. I assume they're removed from the game, but 1846 has you returning them to the bank pool. :shrug: It's funny because right below the scrapping trains portion is the "VIII.13 A Train is removed from the game" section.

IX.3: "If shares are sold, the Share Price falls one space, no matter how many shares were sold..." Is this once per stock round or once per occurrence of a share(s) being sold? It could be read either way, and making stock prices bleed would no doubt excite my group, but I don't want to suggest it before finding out it's illegal. It's a bit odd since the phrasing of the next part starts with, "If at the end of a Stock Round all available shares..."

I only played my copy once, but I took a loooot of time going through the rule-book when I did, so I have *some* degree of confidence that I know and understand the rules. I'll go through your list.

Companies only ever gain money the ways you mentioned, and if another company buys a train off them.

I'm not sure what you mean with train exchange markers? The only "train exchange" that ever happens is when a company purchases a smaller one, and may at that moment rotate/flip the train card to "upgrade" to its own type.

Local railways of the same size are functionally identical, this is mentioned in the rulebook but I forget where. The different prices for local railways are very much intended, and meant to make the local railway selling round into a sort of "auction". You place all the locals on that... "bidding sheet", and the players buy them or pass in the order 1-2-3-4-4-3-2-1-1-2... If all locals of the same size ha the same cost, it would be significantly less interesting IMO.

Debt is exactly that. You go into debt exactly the amount you need to purchase a train.

I remember also being confused about this, but I'm fairly confident trains get scrapped immediately (as happens in most 18xx's to my knowledge). They also get entirely removed from the game. I'm fairly confident that's also what happens in 1846 actually (though I could of course be wrong)? The only trains returned to the bank pool are those that a corp must discard when a phase change makes it be above the limit.

The share price goes down one space per share being sold. E: Never mind I was wrong. Page 21:
"If shares are sold, the Share Price falls one space, no matter how many shares were sold"

Dancer fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Dec 12, 2017

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taser rates
Mar 30, 2010

Chill la Chill posted:

The game keeps talking about purchasing and selling shares to the bank. There's no stock market (what is what I assume is being referred to as the "bank pool") in the game and the company charters do not hold any shares to sell, so how do the companies even gain money? Is it purely from the initial capitalization and from 100% retention of dividends?
Companies only get money from when they initially float, when they withhold revenues, when another company buys a train from them, or when treasuries combine in a merger

quote:

Do trains get another OR after being scrapped? Is it immediate? The rulebook just says to "scrap trains" but doesn't define it. The rulebook also doesn't define what it means by "scrapping" trains. I assume they're removed from the game, but 1846 has you returning them to the bank pool. :shrug: It's funny because right below the scrapping trains portion is the "VIII.13 A Train is removed from the game" section.
In pretty much almost every 18xx, unless it's specifically said otherwise in the manual, train scrapping/rusting occurs immediately with no extra run or compensation. 1846 is one of the few that lets you get an extra run out of a train before it goes away.

quote:

IX.3: "If shares are sold, the Share Price falls one space, no matter how many shares were sold..." Is this once per stock round or once per occurrence of a share(s) being sold? It could be read either way, and making stock prices bleed would no doubt excite my group, but I don't want to suggest it before finding out it's illegal. It's a bit odd since the phrasing of the next part starts with, "If at the end of a Stock Round all available shares..."
The price zigzags back once per block of shares sold. So in terms of affecting the price, it doesn't matter if a player sells 2 shares at once or 3 shares at once, it still only falls once. If they want to affect the price more than that, they'd have to sell shares across multiple turns.

Chill la Chill
Jul 2, 2007

Don't lose your gay


Thanks for the answers! What I mean about the last bit is the wording makes it seem like it’s not a one-time check per stock round. It seems like you can sell shares one at a time to crash the price or, barring that, if multiple people had shares in it, they could also jump in and you could could drop the price once per player. As for the train exchange markers, I’m just going by what the book called them. They’re the double sided tokens with different companies on either side. They seem to be made of same-size companies so it can’t be a token to show that a smaller company station has been turned into a larger company station.

taser rates
Mar 30, 2010
Nope, it checks per stock action, it's not just once per round.

Dancer
May 23, 2011

Chill la Chill posted:

Thanks for the answers! What I mean about the last bit is the wording makes it seem like it’s not a one-time check per stock round. It seems like you can sell shares one at a time to crash the price or, barring that, if multiple people had shares in it, they could also jump in and you could could drop the price once per player. As for the train exchange markers, I’m just going by what the book called them. They’re the double sided tokens with different companies on either side. They seem to be made of same-size companies so it can’t be a token to show that a smaller company station has been turned into a larger company station.

I just threw them back in the box. My assumption is, they exist as extra station tokens for when an acquisition has happened. That way, unless you get unlucky, whenever your corp purchases another one, you should be able to find 3 extra tokens between them. Some people might prefer this to having to remember which smaller corp belongs to which larger one.

cenotaph
Mar 2, 2013



This is why 1830 is a better intro because 46 has things that are seen in very few other games.

werdnam
Feb 16, 2011
The scientist does not study nature because it is useful to do so. He studies it because he takes pleasure in it, and he takes pleasure in it because it is beautiful. If nature were not beautiful it would not be worth knowing, and life would not be worth living. -- Henri Poincare

Dancer posted:

I just threw them back in the box. My assumption is, they exist as extra station tokens for when an acquisition has happened. That way, unless you get unlucky, whenever your corp purchases another one, you should be able to find 3 extra tokens between them. Some people might prefer this to having to remember which smaller corp belongs to which larger one.

This is exactly what they are for. Apparently, in early playtests people found it hard to track the board state after mergers with all the different station tokens.

Chill la Chill
Jul 2, 2007

Don't lose your gay


cenotaph posted:

This is why 1830 is a better intro because 46 has things that are seen in very few other games.

Yeah I hope this is one of the titles picked up by GMT but since I’m already in now, I hope it’s 1841/1817 instead. It’d be nice to have one of the extreme financial shenanigans versions without having it cost so much.

Eggplant Squire
Aug 14, 2003


It's that time of year where my parents want me to suggest a bunch of board games for the family and friends to play during the holidays and as a Christmas gift. You guys gave me some great suggestions last year (Code Names and Dixit went over well) so I'm wondering if anything good has come out recently as my radar is generally on nerd stuff from Fantasy Flight and the like which isn't everyone else's cup of tea. People like card games (tichu is a favorite) or board games where you can explain the rules in under 20 minutes. Everyone hates Fluxx.

Jordan7hm
Feb 17, 2011




Lipstick Apathy
I just got Red7 and really like it. It just plays up to 4 though. It uses rule changes but they’re codified in a very easy manner (the top card of the discard pile determines card value based on card colour) but it’s really smart and plays really fast.

discount cathouse
Mar 25, 2009
great cover art vlaada

silvergoose
Mar 18, 2006

IT IS SAID THE TEARS OF THE BWEENIX CAN HEAL ALL WOUNDS




discount cathouse posted:

great cover art vlaada



That game is...not a good game. It's a better game in the genre than others I've played (a2a, cah, etc) but holy poo poo I hate the genre so much that it doesn't help.

LLSix
Jan 20, 2010

The real power behind countless overlords

Radish posted:

It's that time of year where my parents want me to suggest a bunch of board games for the family and friends to play during the holidays and as a Christmas gift. You guys gave me some great suggestions last year (Code Names and Dixit went over well) so I'm wondering if anything good has come out recently as my radar is generally on nerd stuff from Fantasy Flight and the like which isn't everyone else's cup of tea. People like card games (tichu is a favorite) or board games where you can explain the rules in under 20 minutes. Everyone hates Fluxx.

Code Names Duet
No Thanks
Sushi Go
Mysterium (clue and dixit had a baby, co-op play)

On the heavier end:
Dominion
Seven Wonders
Splendor

Morpheus
Apr 18, 2008

My favourite little monsters
Whoops, forgot to cancel the preorder of Charterstone I made months ago, and uh I guess I'm going to get a copy of Charterstone real soon.

Chill la Chill
Jul 2, 2007

Don't lose your gay


Morpheus posted:

Whoops, forgot to cancel the preorder of Charterstone I made months ago, and uh I guess I'm going to get a copy of Charterstone real soon.

:lol: I turned mine into Lisboa during the CSI sale. Hope you can still enjoy it.

Radish posted:

It's that time of year where my parents want me to suggest a bunch of board games for the family and friends to play during the holidays and as a Christmas gift. You guys gave me some great suggestions last year (Code Names and Dixit went over well) so I'm wondering if anything good has come out recently as my radar is generally on nerd stuff from Fantasy Flight and the like which isn't everyone else's cup of tea. People like card games (tichu is a favorite) or board games where you can explain the rules in under 20 minutes. Everyone hates Fluxx.

In addition to others posted, take a look at dungeon busters. It, like cutthroat caverns, is literally a fixed version of munchkin. It actually improves on it with light bluffing. But it’s a lot more simplified than CC and can be played in ~20 minutes.

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you

Radish posted:

It's that time of year where my parents want me to suggest a bunch of board games for the family and friends to play during the holidays and as a Christmas gift. You guys gave me some great suggestions last year (Code Names and Dixit went over well) so I'm wondering if anything good has come out recently as my radar is generally on nerd stuff from Fantasy Flight and the like which isn't everyone else's cup of tea. People like card games (tichu is a favorite) or board games where you can explain the rules in under 20 minutes. Everyone hates Fluxx.

My family has similar preferences.
I like Fuji Flush as a light card game. It's easy to teach and play, but sorta burns out quickly.
Coup has been a big hit with the family also.
+1 for Sushi Go Party

Morpheus
Apr 18, 2008

My favourite little monsters

Chill la Chill posted:

:lol: I turned mine into Lisboa during the CSI sale. Hope you can still enjoy it.

Guess we'll find out. I'm not particularly critical of a game as long as the mechanics involved are interesting, even if they're not that great overall, so I have some hope.

Fenn the Fool!
Oct 24, 2006
woohoo

Radish posted:

It's that time of year where my parents want me to suggest a bunch of board games for the family and friends to play during the holidays and as a Christmas gift. You guys gave me some great suggestions last year (Code Names and Dixit went over well) so I'm wondering if anything good has come out recently as my radar is generally on nerd stuff from Fantasy Flight and the like which isn't everyone else's cup of tea. People like card games (tichu is a favorite) or board games where you can explain the rules in under 20 minutes. Everyone hates Fluxx.

Some games that I like to bring out at family gatherings:
  • Between 2 Cities is a nice light drafting game, approachable theme, seats seven.
  • Click Clack Lumberjack (aka Toc Toc Woodman/Bling Bling Gemstone) is like jenga but better. Seats however many you want to crowd around the table.
  • Pictomania is like pictionary but better, seats 6. Scoring can trip some people up, but if you practice your rules explanation it'll run fine with anyone.
  • The Resistance: Avalon is a simple bluffing and deduction game, seats ten. This one does require everybody grok the rules and be ready to lie for the game to work, distractions and unenthusiastic players can derail you here.
  • Snake Oil is in the vein of Apples to Apples/Cards Against Humanity, but allows for a lot more creativity and a little bit of improv as you literally try to sell your cards to the judge. No specific limit on players, but I wouldn't play with more than 7 or 8.
  • Say Anything is also in the vein of A2A/CAH, but you write in whatever answer you want, meaning it can be as raunchy or clean as the group enjoys. Seats seven, works better the more the players know eachother.
  • Wits and Wagers is a trivia game where you can win even if you get every answer wrong, you just have to know who in the room does know the answer. Technically 7 players, but it works great with teams, I've run this with upwards of 20 people.
  • Panic on Wall Street is a stock trading game played mostly in real time. Seats 11, lots of shouting.

LLSix
Jan 20, 2010

The real power behind countless overlords

Chill la Chill posted:

:lol: I turned mine into Lisboa during the CSI sale. Hope you can still enjoy it.


In addition to others posted, take a look at dungeon busters. It, like cutthroat caverns, is literally a fixed version of munchkin. It actually improves on it with light bluffing. But it’s a lot more simplified than CC and can be played in ~20 minutes.

This reminded me that 5 Minute Dungeon is pretty good for a game that takes only 5 minutes to play.

Also, Love Letter.

Is cutthroat caverns good? I know several people who love munchkin, if I could convert them to a less bad version that would be awesome.

OmegaGoo
Nov 25, 2011

Mediocrity: the standard of survival!

LLSix posted:

This reminded me that 5 Minute Dungeon is pretty good for a game that takes only 5 minutes to play.

Also, Love Letter.

Is cutthroat caverns good? I know several people who love munchkin, if I could convert them to a less bad version that would be awesome.

Kind of? The mechanics work, but it is 100% a semi-coop because if you spend too much time screwing each other over, the game will win. I loved it with the first group I played it with, and it was an absolute dud the next couple of groups I played it with.

Chill la Chill
Jul 2, 2007

Don't lose your gay


OmegaGoo posted:

Kind of? The mechanics work, but it is 100% a semi-coop because if you spend too much time screwing each other over, the game will win. I loved it with the first group I played it with, and it was an absolute dud the next couple of groups I played it with.

Yeah. The reason why it's better than Munchkin is that it still has an external threat to make you play nice at least sometimes. If your group doesn't really "get" the point of a semi-coop, then you can't really play these types of games. I find them very interesting wrt game theory, which is why Archipelago is in the regular rotation.

Bottom Liner
Feb 15, 2006


a specific vein of lasagna

Fenn the Fool! posted:

Some games that I like to bring out at family gatherings:
  • Between 2 Cities is a nice light drafting game, approachable theme, seats seven.
  • Click Clack Lumberjack (aka Toc Toc Woodman/Bling Bling Gemstone) is like jenga but better. Seats however many you want to crowd around the table.
  • Pictomania is like pictionary but better, seats 6. Scoring can trip some people up, but if you practice your rules explanation it'll run fine with anyone.
  • The Resistance: Avalon is a simple bluffing and deduction game, seats ten. This one does require everybody grok the rules and be ready to lie for the game to work, distractions and unenthusiastic players can derail you here.
  • Snake Oil is in the vein of Apples to Apples/Cards Against Humanity, but allows for a lot more creativity and a little bit of improv as you literally try to sell your cards to the judge. No specific limit on players, but I wouldn't play with more than 7 or 8.
  • Say Anything is also in the vein of A2A/CAH, but you write in whatever answer you want, meaning it can be as raunchy or clean as the group enjoys. Seats seven, works better the more the players know eachother.
  • Wits and Wagers is a trivia game where you can win even if you get every answer wrong, you just have to know who in the room does know the answer. Technically 7 players, but it works great with teams, I've run this with upwards of 20 people.
  • Panic on Wall Street is a stock trading game played mostly in real time. Seats 11, lots of shouting.

To add to this list:

Mysterium is a big hit because it's basically Clue meets Dixit. Super easy to grasp the concept and people enjoy playing both the investigators and ghost.

Superfight is another black card/white card game but it's non-offensive, the humor comes from player creativity and wacky combinations (the cards aren't jokes inherently, which is what makes CaH and the like so dull after one play), and is expandable into niches to tailor to your audience (nerdy pack, anime, challenges, etc).

Codenames is the modern classic and the Disney/Marvel variants are a great choice for families. I recently played with these two mixed and it was great.

Tak/Santorini/Onitama - everyone has played Checkers/Chess and these are all better and super easy to learn, quick to play, and visually appealing. Older family members generally appreciate the simple abstracts more than colorful "complicated" looking boardgames.

Dutch Blitz - a classic family card game that's basically speed multiplayer solitaire

Flick Em' Up - dexterity games are inherently great for families and the cowboys theme and components of this one garner a lot of attention.

Junk Art - a stacking game with great components that will cause a lot of loud raucous fun.

Buck Wildman
Mar 30, 2010

I am Metango, Galactic Governor


Going to second Onitama. It's an extremely fast, portable chess analogue with interesting variety in movement potential that changes each game. My parents, both 60+, are big fans. Only downside is that it's only two players, of course.

Got Coup for the holidays and am excited to try it out with people.

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

Radish posted:

It's that time of year where my parents want me to suggest a bunch of board games for the family and friends to play during the holidays and as a Christmas gift. You guys gave me some great suggestions last year (Code Names and Dixit went over well) so I'm wondering if anything good has come out recently as my radar is generally on nerd stuff from Fantasy Flight and the like which isn't everyone else's cup of tea. People like card games (tichu is a favorite) or board games where you can explain the rules in under 20 minutes. Everyone hates Fluxx.

I played When I Dream last weekend and that seems like a good one for mixed-age groups if you have enough people. One person is blindfolded and then it goes around a circle with everyone else saying one word at a time to try and get them to guess the word on the card. Or to get it wrong. Or switching sides based on who's ahead. And the dreamer (and everyone else) is trying to go through as many as they can in two minutes. And then the dreamer has to try and remember the ones they got right, without knowing which ones those are.

And that's it, that's the rules. Simple to learn, basic party game style, and some nice art on the cards (though it's not relevant to the game itself, so don't go comparing this to something like Dixit).

jmzero
Jul 24, 2007

Bottom Liner posted:

Codenames is the modern classic and the Disney/Marvel variants are a great choice for families. I recently played with these two mixed and it was great.

I'd also add that Codenames: Duet is a big upgrade - particularly for family play. It makes the game full co-op, and generally gets everyone involved much more. Instead of active cluegivers and passive (sometimes bored) guessers, everyone can always be thinking about good potential clues.

Kashuno
Oct 9, 2012

Where the hell is my SWORD?
Grimey Drawer

silvergoose posted:

That game is...not a good game. It's a better game in the genre than others I've played (a2a, cah, etc) but holy poo poo I hate the genre so much that it doesn't help.

Well yeah it's not a good game it's a question

e; Downforce is a great game for family game night. The gameplay is simple and can lead to some good scenarios, betting is pretty straight forward, and I've never played a game of it where people haven't been like "AW drat" at some point every turn. It's good.

Kashuno fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Dec 13, 2017

rydiafan
Mar 17, 2009



LLSix posted:

Is cutthroat caverns good? I know several people who love munchkin, if I could convert them to a less bad version that would be awesome.

Bloodborne is a faster, better Cutthroat Caverns.

Joe Slowboat
Nov 9, 2016

Higgledy-Piggledy Whale Statements



rydiafan posted:

Bloodborne is a faster, better Cutthroat Caverns.

gently caress me that means it's a much faster much better Munchkin, this is a dreadful revelation

Duct Tape
Sep 30, 2004

Huh?

Bottom Liner posted:

CSI has the Gloomhaven stickers in stock if anyone was looking for them.

https://www.coolstuffinc.com/p/241702

Would anyone recommend the removable stickers? My copy of Gloomhaven finally showed up, I haven't started playing it, and I don't know if I'll ever want to reset the game at any point.

I recently played through Pandemic Legacy, and loved placing stickers all over the board. However, that game is cheap enough that if I ever want to run through it again, I have no issues with picking up another copy. Plus, it's broadly available (I know Gloomhaven will be seeing a retail release at some point, though).

Fellis
Feb 14, 2012

Kid, don't threaten me. There are worse things than death, and uh, I can do all of them.

Kashuno posted:

Well yeah it's not a good game it's a question

e; Downforce is a great game for family game night. The gameplay is simple and can lead to some good scenarios, betting is pretty straight forward, and I've never played a game of it where people haven't been like "AW drat" at some point every turn. It's good.

Downforce makes me mad because people don’t understand how to attempt to win the game by trying to manipulate the betting metagame. Everyone just bets on the car in the lead, pushes that car, and whoever owns it wins the game. For gently caress’s sake.

I even tried to sabotage myself when in the lead (because I bet on another car) and still came in 1st place (and then lost and everyone called me an idiot for not betting on myself the whole time :argh:)

Moriatti
Apr 21, 2014

Hey how is the new Fallout game?

Agent Rush
Aug 30, 2008

You looked, Junker!

Chill la Chill posted:

:lol: I turned mine into Lisboa during the CSI sale. Hope you can still enjoy it.


In addition to others posted, take a look at dungeon busters. It, like cutthroat caverns, is literally a fixed version of munchkin. It actually improves on it with light bluffing. But it’s a lot more simplified than CC and can be played in ~20 minutes.

If you were only getting one, which of Cutthroat Caverns or Dungeon Busters should you pick up? Also, is there anything different about DB's limited edition besides the box?

CaptainRightful
Jan 11, 2005

Duct Tape posted:

Would anyone recommend the removable stickers? My copy of Gloomhaven finally showed up, I haven't started playing it, and I don't know if I'll ever want to reset the game at any point.

I recently played through Pandemic Legacy, and loved placing stickers all over the board. However, that game is cheap enough that if I ever want to run through it again, I have no issues with picking up another copy. Plus, it's broadly available (I know Gloomhaven will be seeing a retail release at some point, though).

Only get the removable stickers if you know for sure that you want to resell the game someday for maximum value, or you're absolutely certain you want to play 2 simultaneous full campaigns with different groups and you're unwilling to do any bookkeeping. The removable stickers are a waste of money for 99% of people.

The Eyes Have It
Feb 10, 2008

Third Eye Sees All
...snookums
We're getting two runs out of Gloomhaven by the simple method of checking stuff off with a red sharpie marker first, than black afterwards.

Re Fallout it seems to be similar to Eldritch Horror in ways, including playing being long. I'd give it a shot though.

al-azad
May 28, 2009



Duct Tape posted:

Would anyone recommend the removable stickers? My copy of Gloomhaven finally showed up, I haven't started playing it, and I don't know if I'll ever want to reset the game at any point.

I recently played through Pandemic Legacy, and loved placing stickers all over the board. However, that game is cheap enough that if I ever want to run through it again, I have no issues with picking up another copy. Plus, it's broadly available (I know Gloomhaven will be seeing a retail release at some point, though).

You can come to that decision down the line. It's not difficult to remove the stickers and later replace them.

Duct Tape
Sep 30, 2004

Huh?
I have no intention of ever selling the game (hell, I still have my copies of Munchkin and Zombies!!! that I keep around as a reminder to practice self-control), and I don't plan on running multiple simultaneous campaigns with the same box.

Sounds like the removable stickers aren't for me, especially if there are other ways of handling it (removing the regular stickers, using markers, etc).

Kiranamos
Sep 27, 2007

STATUS: SCOTT IS AN IDIOT
Anyone played the Unlock! or Exit games and knows a good one to try?

PerniciousKnid
Sep 13, 2006

Fellis posted:

Downforce makes me mad because people don’t understand how to attempt to win the game by trying to manipulate the betting metagame. Everyone just bets on the car in the lead, pushes that car, and whoever owns it wins the game. For gently caress’s sake.

I even tried to sabotage myself when in the lead (because I bet on another car) and still came in 1st place (and then lost and everyone called me an idiot for not betting on myself the whole time :argh:)

Not having played it myself, how do you manipulate the betting meta game?

Tree Dude
May 26, 2012

AND MY SONG IS...

Kiranamos posted:

Anyone played the Unlock! or Exit games and knows a good one to try?

Exit: Abandoned Cabin was a great time. Can't recommend it enough. That's the only Escape Room In A Box thing I've played but I've heard it's one of the better ones.

It's one time use and then it goes in the garbage but it's fairly priced for a fun evening.

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LLSix
Jan 20, 2010

The real power behind countless overlords

Trip Report. Patchwork arrived today and I played it with my wife for the first time. She liked it, but I found it boring.

The good:
Plays fast
Mechanically sound
mechanics and theme fit well together

The boring:
The theme is quilting. Boring.
Playing well means trying to plan several moves ahead. That leaves me feeling like I'm either playing inefficiently or really slow while I try to map out possible permutations. Tonight I decided to play fast since I still had some work to get done and it left me feeling pretty unengaged with the game. I can see why people would like it though.

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