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Cerebral Bore posted:It doesn't take a year to right an organization like the DNC if the will is there (and given the 2016 result there really should have been) Pray tell, have you ever actually done anything related to changing an organization's culture and operations? It doesn't happen overnight.
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Dec 13, 2017 22:12
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axeil posted:Pray tell, have you ever actually done anything related to changing an organization's culture and operations? Yeah I have, and it generally doesn't take a year to send down new and simple marching orders to the field either, ya dingus. E: Like, seriously. If the DNC is so dysfunctional that it takes the better part of a year to change their general funding strategy you might as well wind it up altogether.
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Dec 13, 2017 22:16
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https://twitter.com/matthewjdowd/status/941005488560459776
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Dec 13, 2017 22:17
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Cerebral Bore posted:It doesn't take a year to right an organization like the DNC if the will is there (and given the 2016 result there really should have been) And you back this assertion up how? Even if Perez could fire the right people, hire the right people, implement the right programs and do it all in a month (which more realistically would take many months) this now perfect DNC still has to contend with state parties, PACs and campaigns that are outside their control. quote:the DNC has been garbage at fundraising, You mean they haven't been spending as much time chasing donors' wallets? quote:and they managed to blow more money than god on a wet fart in their personal chosen battleground GA06 while starving every other special election. Ok, now I know you're just posting bs, because GA06 is certainly far from the DNC's "personal chosen battleground." Ossoff was a bad candidate and still did better than the partisan lean in that district. quote:The obvious conclusion is that Perez thought business as usual would cut it, and now he's finally got that it won't he's belatedly changed course. So you're claiming Perez lied during the DNC chair race but has finally now has gotten the message and is trying to make those lies real? That doesn't make sense and it sure as hell isn't the obvious conclusion. Especially considering the fact that Ellison has been public about the positive work Perez has been putting in the entire time towards this goal. You have articles dating back months pointing out that this is the Perez/Ellison strategy: http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/325335-perez-ellison-start-multistate-turnaround-tour-for-dems Cerebral Bore posted:Yeah I have, and it generally doesn't take a year to send down new and simple marching orders to the field either, ya dingus. See this is where you show your ignorance again. Before Perez started there weren't DNC people in the field to give marching orders to, ya dingus. That's part of what Perez and Ellison have had to do. And also lol if you think the only reform needed to get to this victory was sending a new memo and changing the general funding strategy. Trabisnikof fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Dec 13, 2017 |
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Dec 13, 2017 22:18
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Abortion is a hell of an issue.
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Dec 13, 2017 22:23
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Cerebral Bore posted:Yeah I have, and it generally doesn't take a year to send down new and simple marching orders to the field either, ya dingus. Frankly, I don't believe your statement that you've done this before. I've been doing consulting for 5+ years and at every organization I've ever been to there are always people who are resistant to changes to "the way things are done". Sometimes you can go around them, sometimes you can't. Regardless of how well you can manage them it drastically increases the time it takes to accomplish things that on the surface seem easy or simple. And this wasn't a simple "let's change how we do our payroll" thing, it was a fundamental shift in their strategy. You can see how things immediately after Perez took over were still in "bombard the race with ads" mode but by the time we hit November/December it switched to "fund organizers on the ground." Perez took over in about February so even under the most generous timelines that's about 6-7 months to implement (as you'd need to fund the organizers months prior to the election). Seems reasonable to me. Trabisnikof posted:Before Perez started there weren't DNC people in the field to give marching orders to, ya dingus. That's part of what Perez and Ellison have had to do. This. Not only do you have to hire the people to do this, you have to also craft up what exactly you're going to do and then teach everyone the new way to do things, deal with members of the Old Guard who don't want to change, etc. These all take time. To have things in place for VA+AL is frankly a major testament to how committed Perez is to shaking things up. edit: I mean look at just how their fundraising emails changed. In GA-06 all the emails were "THE END IS NEAR WE ARE ALL GONNA DIE" and for VA and AL they were much more focused on what your dollars could do to help. axeil fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Dec 13, 2017 |
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Dec 13, 2017 22:28
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GA06 was in june, which is literally within fresh memory, so who do you think you're gonna be able to gaslight here? Until then they followed the old garbage model of focusing on what seemed to poll well and ignoring the rest to a T. Also trying to pretend that the most expensive house race in history wasn't the chosen battleground just makes the DNC look worse, because if so then what the gently caress were they doing breaking the bank on it? The only believable thing in your desperate defense of mediocrity is that the shift to a sensible strategy was what Ellison wanted all along, and it likely took a hugely embarassing loss for the rest of the clowns to listen and implement his ideas.
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Dec 13, 2017 22:33
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so the takeaway isn't "white people are terrible" but "evangelicals are terrible, and also overwhelmingly white"?
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Dec 13, 2017 22:33
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lol JFC. Tom Perez was literally pushed into the running for DNC chair by the old guard who didn't want Keith Ellison and his super radical ideas in charge. I know you're a self-admitted clueless grifter, but try to read up for once.
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Dec 13, 2017 22:37
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Cerebral Bore posted:GA06 was in june, which is literally within fresh memory, so who do you think you're gonna be able to gaslight here? Until then they followed the old garbage model of focusing on what seemed to poll well and ignoring the rest to a T. Also trying to pretend that the most expensive house race in history wasn't the chosen battleground just makes the DNC look worse, because if so then what the gently caress were they doing breaking the bank on it? This supports our argument that things take time to change. June is pretty drat fast to have an entirely revamped campaigning method complete and implemented. Sometimes you use the old garbage method a bit longer even though you're replacing it because you have nothing better. June is 4 months after Perez became chair (and you'd have to have things set up earlier so it's more like April-May). If you think that's a reasonable amount of time to have a massive organization strategy change completed and implemented I don't think there's anything more to discuss because your expectations are not aligned with reality of changing large organizations with entrenched processes. Cerebral Bore posted:I know you're a self-admitted clueless grifter, but try to read up for once. The gently caress is this poo poo?
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Dec 13, 2017 22:37
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Dude, don't you get how politics work on the most fundamental level or what?axeil posted:The gently caress is this poo poo? Oh I'm sorry, I meant to say "consultant".
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Dec 13, 2017 22:40
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The current strategy is good and I don't give two flying fucks who you want to personally give the credit to, and I think both Perez and Ellison would agree with me on that from their public statements.
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Dec 13, 2017 22:41
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Cerebral Bore posted:Dude, don't you get how politics work on the most fundamental level or what? 
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Dec 13, 2017 22:45
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Cerebral Bore posted:It doesn't take a year to right an organization like the DNC if the will is there (and given the 2016 result there really should have been), the DNC has been garbage at fundraising, and they managed to blow more money than god on a wet fart in their personal chosen battleground GA06 while starving every other special election. im not sure why a man who wouldn't be qualified to manage a mcdonalds is trying to act like he has any idea how long it takes to execute a reform strategy for the dnc but managing to fully execute it before the next year's elections well enough to win a massive victory in virginia, then win an unwinnable special election, with loads of time before the 2018 election is pretty much the best possible timetable
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Dec 13, 2017 22:46
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Sorry if I've confused you, dear "I don't get why the guy specifically put in the race to block a reform candidate might not actually be too keen on reform" sirs.
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Dec 13, 2017 22:47
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Sydin posted:Abortion is a hell of an issue. When my parents were getting divorced my grandma (maternal) told my mom that she should try appreciating my dad more. Now it's not like there was any abuse involved, they're even worse when it comes to that, but she i initially sided against her daughter because that's what their interpretation of the Bible tells them. Had my dad bought into any of this garbage he might be out there yammering on about the evils of feminism or some stupid poo poo. Instead he realized "Hmmmm, at times I've been an rear end in a top hat to my wife and kids, and also lazy around the house, maybe I should work on that"
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Dec 13, 2017 22:49
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Cerebral Bore posted:Dude, don't you get how politics work on the most fundamental level or what? This is somewhat unfair. I'm not at all fond of the consulting class, but you can identify the clique responsible for destroying the foundations of the democratic party with the fingers on one hand, and whatever I can say about his line of work I don't think axeil is operating on bad faith.
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Dec 13, 2017 22:49
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cheetah7071 posted:so the takeaway isn't "white people are terrible" but "evangelicals are terrible, and also overwhelmingly white"? That makes a lot of sense. My facebook feed is filled with various white alabamians I know who proudly voted for Jones, but they're all academics and yuppies, not evangelicals at all.
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Dec 13, 2017 22:53
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Office Pig posted:This is somewhat unfair. I'm not at all fond of the consulting class, but you can identify the clique responsible for destroying the foundations of the democratic party with the fingers on one hand, and whatever I can say about his line of work I don't think axeil is operating on bad faith. I don't even do political consulting. Change management is the same though whether you're going into the DNC, Microsoft, Caterpillar, a federal government agency, Citibank, Trader Joe's, etc. There are always people excited about the change, neutral about the change, and people who want you to immediately leave for even suggesting a change. The distribution isn't always the same but you usually get at least 1 person in the neutral/"I hate this" group and if they control something critical you have to find a way to handle it. It's why this stuff can take a while: just getting everyone to agree a change is needed is non-trivial. Perez (and Ellison) deserve a lot of credit for turning things from "dump a boatload of ads in GA-06" to "stealth organizing" in less than half a year.
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Dec 13, 2017 22:53
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the primary knock on the dnc that cerebral bore seems to have a vague idea exists is the idea that democrats didn't compete hard enough in all of the house special elections, just GA-06. at the end of the day though those do not matter: they'll be up for election in 2018. we know now, but did not know then, that there is a massive wave forming in all areas - GA-06 was picked to compete in because the demographics suggested it would be more favorable. the lessons learned from GA-06, and the other house races that Dems lost but lost by a lot less than expected, was that (a) you want to avoid nationalizing the race and focusing on why trump is bad as a primary message: people who hate trump know they hate trump, but you need to explain why you're good for the district; and (b) that the anti-trump effect is much, much broader than expected. at the end of the day though GA-06 didn't matter. none of those races mattered: there weren't enough to meaningfully change the House and they're up for election in 2018. Virginia mattered. New Jersey mattered. and Alabama mattered. All three are wins that will extend past 2018 and affect what can happen in the interim. GA-06 and the other races were important more as "we can still win elections despite trump" and little else, and, well, think everyone's got that message the criticism of the dnc about what house special elections it seriously contested assumes that (b) was known at the time. it wasn't.
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Dec 13, 2017 22:54
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like i can see how, after GA-06, you could be legitimately upset with the DNC (though iirc most criticisms conflated the money Ossof raised in total with money sent to him by the DNC - most of the money Ossof raised was donated to him and only got donated because it was a big headline race that rank and file democrats wanted to win as a finger in the eye to trump but couldn't have effectively been diverted elsewhere) repeating those criticisms now, after the DNC has managed to cultivate an absolutely unheard of number of candidates for 2018 before this upset, helped to come close to or actually flip the horrifically gerrymandered VA legislature, and just stolen a senate seat in loving alabama means that you are a person looking to be angry and looking for an excuse rather than someone with a legit grievance
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Dec 13, 2017 22:57
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Oh my god it’s not even 24 hours and someone needs to remind us that 2016 Dems are a waste and always will be The strategy changed and the tide is turning, but please, let’s relitigate what’s the subject of multiple US political threads!
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Dec 13, 2017 22:58
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What's the split for men? I expect it to be a lot less not-offensive.
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Dec 13, 2017 22:59
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Your Boy Fancy posted:Oh my god it’s not even 24 hours and someone needs to remind us that 2016 Dems are a waste and always will be Doesn't seem to hurt, so why stop? Like, seriously, I can get why evilweasel has the most rear end-backwards of opinions on account of never having to engage with real competitive electoral politics as opposed to some beltway lanyard farce, but the only effective way to get political organizations to move your way is to push them there. Outside pressure is an enormously valuable tool to keep the Dems from slipping back into utter incompetence, even if it might hurt somebody's team spirit.
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Dec 13, 2017 23:04
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Your Boy Fancy posted:Oh my god it’s not even 24 hours and someone needs to remind us that 2016 Dems are a waste and always will be It took nearly 24 hours but the narrative coalescing around some of the usual suspects is "lol the Dems were running against a literal pedophile and only won by 1.5 points. loving failures."
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Dec 13, 2017 23:05
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Cerebral Bore posted:Doesn't seem to hurt, so why stop? Like, seriously, I can get why evilweasel has the most rear end-backwards of opinions on account of never having to engage with real politics as opposed to some beltway lanyard farce, but the only effective way to get political organizations to move your way is to push them there. Outside pressure is an enormously valuable tool to keep the Dems from slipping back into utter incompetence, even if it might hurt somebody's team spirit. Ok go send Perez an email instead of repeating your sane inane complaints here over and over again? Posting about how you know politics better than everyone else and they're dumb and you're smart isn't outside pressure on the dnc.
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Dec 13, 2017 23:05
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DACK FAYDEN posted:What's the split for men? I expect it to be a lot less not-offensive. Here's a pretty great breakdown across a lot of demographics
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Dec 13, 2017 23:06
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Trabisnikof posted:Ok go send Perez an email instead of repeating your sane inane complaints here over and over again? Posting about how you know politics better than everyone else and they're dumb and you're smart isn't outside pressure on the dnc.
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Dec 13, 2017 23:10
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:It took nearly 24 hours but the narrative coalescing around some of the usual suspects is "lol the Dems were running against a literal pedophile and only won by 1.5 points. loving failures." gently caress those people. Imagine being so dedicated to misery that they can’t ever allow themselves to revel in the upset of the decade.
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Dec 13, 2017 23:15
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Your Boy Fancy posted:gently caress those people. Imagine being so dedicated to misery that they can’t ever allow themselves to revel in the upset* of the decade. *good upset
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Dec 13, 2017 23:17
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Bore, you're aware of how hilariously transparent you are, yes?
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Dec 13, 2017 23:17
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Your Boy Fancy posted:Oh my god it’s not even 24 hours and someone needs to remind us that 2016 Dems are a waste and always will be I don't really think this is the way to approach some of the harsher voices coming out in the wake of the Alabama senate race. Make no mistake, Doug Jones in that seat is the de facto "MATTERING" within the realm of American electoral politics, but we've been in this sort of position before, albeit nowhere near so dramatic that a state as bloody and raw as Jeff Session's old stomping grounds could get swept out from underneath the Republican party. To say the very least having a new Democratic senator under these circumstances is important, but you have to account for what happens between these elections if you want more than a cycle of reactive movements that grinds us away into hellfire and nothingness. Yeah it kills the high a little, but I'd rather have commotion of some value or another than assume this all stops with a numbers game in congress. Potato Salad posted:Bore, you're aware of how hilariously transparent you are, yes? Cerebral Bore is not some t_d plant no matter how easy it is for you to believe that.
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Dec 13, 2017 23:18
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Your Boy Fancy posted:Oh my god it’s not even 24 hours and someone needs to remind us that 2016 Dems are a waste and always will be It's mostly one idiot who understands nothing, so
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Dec 13, 2017 23:30
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Cerebral Bore posted:Yeah I have, and it generally doesn't take a year to send down new and simple marching orders to the field either, ya dingus. What experience exactly do you have in changing the way an established organization works? You're making a bunch of definitive statements about how easy it is to do something which sounds difficult to do, and backing it up with vague claims of some relevant expertise you haven't elaborated on. This makes you come across as being completely full of poo poo. If you have some special insight from running or reforming an organization or something then say so; it would make the thread more interesting than another internet slap fight about the DNC.
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Dec 13, 2017 23:37
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DACK FAYDEN posted:What's the split for men? I expect it to be a lot less not-offensive. Let's focus on the positive here and just ignore white men for now Nothing good.comes.of giving white men attention
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Dec 13, 2017 23:40
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I am glad of the result, but I would like to see more victories if they can be achieved. Also i would prefer more further left voices in America. The worst you get is someone asking for too much, which is better than the utter "status quo is okay" bullshit we often have to put up with.
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Dec 13, 2017 23:46
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DNC won a statewide election in ala-fuckingbama. You aint going to bring me down
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Dec 13, 2017 23:51
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Despera posted:DNC won a statewide election in ala-fuckingbama. You aint going to bring me down Man I still can't believe it. What a crazy loving year
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Dec 13, 2017 23:52
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OtherworldlyInvader posted:What experience exactly do you have in changing the way an established organization works? I'm not going to start expounding on my personal history due to some dumb internet argument, buddy. Still, I'm going to give you a free bit of advice, that oughta be kinda uncontroversial: A critical step to reforming an organization is to put people in charge that actually want to reform it. Or at least understand the need.
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Dec 13, 2017 23:54
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Cerebral Bore posted:I'm not going to start expounding on my personal history due to some dumb internet argument, buddy. interesting since you seem to rely entirely on unfounded assumptions about what other people's personal history is, and think that we should listen to your declarations for, uh, some reason despite your obvious brokebrainsness you have no useful thoughts, cease sharing them
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Dec 14, 2017 00:07
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