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I agree Kylo is scary in a Oh poo poo he's like an hormonal angry teenager and you don't know when he's gonna snap kind of way. And when it's someone with that power and a lightsaber that is pretty terrifying then you have a potentially really scary character who would instill tension in every scene. But yep exactly he loses too much, he's shown as too weak. Why not have the first film not reveal all of that weakness? Keep the mask on at least until right at the end, have him kill characters you grow attached to, make him seem to be this monster who kills with no remorse like in the opening scene of TFA but keep that going. Then when it's revealed he's in reality a scared kid how much more powerful would that have been? Snoke could have been that Thrawn type. He's been lying in wait, waiting for his moment to strike once the Emperor was dead, rebuilding his forces slowly using strategy and deception etc. But nah gently caress it let's just kill him. Also Oh god don't get me started on Daisy Ridley's delivery on some of those lines with Luke. Like my god did she have the flu or something that day because it was really jarring, she's normally one of the better actors in these new films. Just Chamber fucked around with this message at 14:05 on Dec 14, 2017 |
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Dec 14, 2017 12:14
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Wank posted:EDIT: Actually the blue milk scene was probably the best thing in the movie. Mark Hamill is the best.
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Dec 14, 2017 12:19
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Nessus posted:What is it, It's like something out of a Lynch movie. Luke wants Rey gone, but Rey is doing the thing where she is stubborn and following him around until he relents and trains her or helps her or whatever. So he goes about his normal day to day business. He heads right down to the shore line of the island where these really weird, long necked, tall creatures are kind of sun-baving laying back on the rocks, like sea lions or walruses do. Rey seems to like them, and they look kind of interesting. The camera then pans down to one of their abdomens where it has four large breasts with large teats on each one. Luke pulls out some kind of device and plugs it into one of the teats and starts expressing out the blue milk. He then disconnects it and starts to drink out of where the milk is, letting it all pour down his mouth and turns to Rey with a huge poo poo-eating grin, as if to say "Hey, you really want to hang around with me, I don't give a gently caress anymore". The camera goes back to the face of the creature who looks at Rey as if to say "Aw yeah, thats the poo poo" and Rey looks back and tries to keep down her breakfast. I assume this is the canon explanation of where blue milk in the Star Wars universe comes from. Watch out for the wookipedia entry. WHERE DID BEN SOLO's BLUE LIGHTSABER COME FROM IN THE JEDI TEMPLE? WHERE DID IT GO?
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Dec 14, 2017 12:39
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Why didn't they jump in a load of ships ahead of the fleet - cut them off at the pass if you will - that can't be the entire First Order fleet? Why not jump in one of those dreadnoughts? Why doesn't Snoke's megaship have those cannons? If I had a ship like that it would have 10 of everything? Why not zerg the rebel fleet? A 60km wide ship must have thousands of fighters and bombers, let alone what's on the star destroyers.
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Dec 14, 2017 12:40
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I do think Ren's character makes a poo poo load more sense in TYOOL 2017 than he did in 2015. The impotent yet terrifying rage of cosplaying Nazis who know they're wrong but power through to the lovely logical conclusion of their dumb convictions is just a thing now.
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Dec 14, 2017 12:42
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I liked the movie and I don't mind getting rid of Snoke, but it still bothers me that this dude comes out of nowhere, takes control of the FO, corrupts Ben Solo and has so much power and we still know nothing about him.
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Dec 14, 2017 12:42
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notaspy posted:Why didn't they jump in a load of ships ahead of the fleet - cut them off at the pass if you will - that can't be the entire First Order fleet? Because they wanted to do Mad Max except it doesn't bloody work in space and I such a contrived situation to suit the plot and treats the audience as a bunch of idiots basically because we're supposed to ignore all the reasons you rightly bring up.
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Dec 14, 2017 12:43
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radlum posted:I liked the movie and I don't mind getting rid of Snoke, but it still bothers me that this dude comes out of nowhere, takes control of the FO, corrupts Ben Solo and has so much power and we still know nothing about him. For a second, I thought the ship that the master code breaker steals is actually Snoke's ship and they were going to make a point that Snoke has all this money and power by selling arms to both sides. Nope. vvvvv Maphis posted:Canto Bight Scene: "I know that sound!" -camera pans to a racetrack- I got momentarily excited thinking they'd throw in a cute reference to Pod Racing, but instead it was space Chocobos so whatever. I thought the same thing - you get sick of throwbacks but not having podracing was kind of a waste. But instead they were racing wingless Tricos from The Last Guardian. The whole subplot about whatever the gently caress with the kids that took care of the pseudo-horses was lost on me. No idea. The movie was 32 minutes too long to be a Star Wars movie, but as a movie it was about 60 minutes too long. EDIT - ah, you know why? Because they kept using the Podracing theme in this movie. The bit where they introduce the racers or whatever. Something like that. It's been a while. Wank fucked around with this message at 13:12 on Dec 14, 2017 |
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Dec 14, 2017 12:47
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Saw it this morning in IMAX 3D. The parts I liked I really liked. Mostly Kylo and the Throne Room scene. Also enjoyed subverting the expectations regarding Snoke and Rey's Parents. Didn't like: Everything else. Hated: Finn has the same role in this movie as Jar Jar Binks in Episode 1. Except I think Jar Jar did more. They hosed up space again what with the arcing turbo lasers. I know Star Wars is WW2 but where are the B-Wings mk 2 or Y-Wings mk 3? Wtf is with the stupidly slow death trap tin can bombers? A-Wing pilot sitting in space between the bombers while they're getting wrecked, and I thought Battlefront 2 had an idlers problem. Canto Bight Scene: "I know that sound!" -camera pans to a racetrack- I got momentarily excited thinking they'd throw in a cute reference to Pod Racing, but instead it was space Chocobos so whatever. Rogue One was better.
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Dec 14, 2017 12:48
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notaspy posted:Why not zerg the rebel fleet? A 60km wide ship must have thousands of fighters and bombers, let alone what's on the star destroyers. Because then the fighters wouldn't able to be covered by the capital ships. Yes, this doesn't make sense.
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Dec 14, 2017 12:50
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radlum posted:I liked the movie and I don't mind getting rid of Snoke, but it still bothers me that this dude comes out of nowhere, takes control of the FO, corrupts Ben Solo and has so much power and we still know nothing about him.
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Dec 14, 2017 12:50
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Kurzon posted:Well he's pretty much like the Emperor in the original trilogy. The Emperor was just there and we didn't know anything about his past and his relationship to Vader. Snoke is just there. Emperor had characterization, memorable moments, twists and turns... the "FULLY FUNCTIONAL DEATH STAR" trap, the constant badgering to get Luke to convert, "fulfill you destiny and take your fathers place at my side!", "So be it, Jedi".... I guess we could have had that if they kept Snoke around, but they didn't so...
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Dec 14, 2017 13:00
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White Rock posted:Emperor had characterization, memorable moments, twists and turns... the "FULLY FUNCTIONAL DEATH STAR" trap, the constant badgering to get Luke to convert, "fulfill you destiny and take your fathers place at my side!", "So be it, Jedi"....
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Dec 14, 2017 13:06
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Kurzon posted:No, he was entirely "let's crush the Rebellion and convert young Skywalker". That was all there was to him in Return of the Jedi. Yeah, but he was super fun. The way he spits out "Jedi" is great. Snoke isn't fun. Snoke doesn't even look like he exists.
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Dec 14, 2017 13:09
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Don't worry, I'm sure JJ Abrams will cheerfully retcon half of this movie so he can make his beloved plodding shot by shot remake of Return of the Jedi for #9. It'll be okay! Some of y'all will get what you want. I'm just happy to get one real movie out of the new trilogy, even with flaws. edit: OK, yeah, that's not fair, most of the people in this thread have more reasoning behind their critiques than the folks on the starwarsleaks subreddit I binged and influenced the tone of that post up there. Sorry. But I stand by my prediction about epsiode 9. 
Mukaikubo fucked around with this message at 13:27 on Dec 14, 2017 |
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Dec 14, 2017 13:14
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FiftySeven posted:The Millenium falcon intervention and flying through the crystal canyon (the music in that scene especially, just distilled star wars) It was literally almost 1:1 to Death Star 2, at some points with the same music and the cavern even had the same layout as the reactor core. It even had a pillar that was the reactor core, basically. The manoeuvres and the tight spaces. It's Death Star 2. I actually had to explain this thoroughly to an avid fan with whom I watched the film.
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Dec 14, 2017 13:40
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Where are the Knights of Ren?
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Dec 14, 2017 13:51
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you're not serious about ht blue milk lol thats loving awesome
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Dec 14, 2017 13:56
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Sefiros posted:Where are the Knights of Ren? not in it An Apple A Gay posted:you're not serious about ht blue milk lol thats loving awesome the milk scene is great
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Dec 14, 2017 14:03
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Sefiros posted:Where are the Knights of Ren? Luke(?) even mentions in TLA that Kylo escaped from the temple with some people... who I guess are the Knights of Ren... who I thought where the guys in red but obviously not.
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Dec 14, 2017 14:05
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The space "chase" plot was infuriating. I know the First Order is basically shown to already be totally incompetent with Hux and Kylo in charge, but this time they had Snoke with them who, I assume, is meant to be pretty with it (before getting blind sided). Surely he could think of a way to catch up to/cut the fleet off? The whole thing felt like that episode of Seinfeld where the old people are chasing George down the street on motorised wheelchairs.
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Dec 14, 2017 14:14
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uPL0pf6llU&t=23s
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Dec 14, 2017 14:23
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blue milk every morning no wonder luke is dead
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Dec 14, 2017 14:23
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thepokey posted:The space "chase" plot was infuriating. I know the First Order is basically shown to already be totally incompetent with Hux and Kylo in charge, but this time they had Snoke with them who, I assume, is meant to be pretty with it (before getting blind sided). Surely he could think of a way to catch up to/cut the fleet off? The whole thing felt like that episode of Seinfeld where the old people are chasing George down the street on motorised wheelchairs. It's also a bit weird because I don't think there's ever been an instance where Star Wars has drawn that much attention to, for lack of a better term, fleet movements and logistics? It feels like it depends on a lot of sudden contrivances, such as hyperspace and non-hyperspace fuel being the same thing. I'm fairly sure ESB and R1 have shown that you can track ships through hyperspace, too. But going jump-jump-jump might've invited comparisons to BSG's 33 episode. I think it's the first movie to draw such attention to starship shields, too. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 14:34 on Dec 14, 2017 |
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Dec 14, 2017 14:31
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Just Chamber posted:Something just occurred to me. What is with the recent trend in these new films to make the Imperials seem so incompetent/ not menacing at all? And i'm not talking about storm troopers not being able to hit a target. A large part of Star Wars fandom, the one that overlaps with alt-right, had a tendency to glamorize the Empire and its predecessors (the Sith Empire, for example), mostly because they seemed menacing and competent. The First Order seems to have been given a treatment to prevent that. Stormtroopers stopped being fanatically loyal (albeit weak) faceless minions and were given emotions, frequently preventing them from accomplishing their goals. Ordinary First Order underlings are much more cowardly and incompetent than their Imperial counterparts. We don't get to see honorable, yet loyal officers like captain Needa - only bootlickers, incompetent morons and the snarling commander of the dreadnought, who managed to see the Rebel plan, but is completely unable to do anything about it because of the incompetence of the rest of the fleet. Snoke is a discount Emperor without years of politicking and manipulating people, Kylo is wannabe Darth Vader up to the mask even his master considers ridiculous. Hux is Tarkin, but one who openly loathes Vader's counterpart and opposes him on every turn, getting constantly humiliated. And this really fits the First Order from the backstory. They are one of the Imperial Remnants which controlled some heavily fortified worlds, which the New Republic didn't see important enough to warrant a military action. Before TWA, they were viewed as space North Korea. They managed to eat other Imperial Remnants and expand into uncharted sectors without a problem. They only got some attention after some of Republic worlds who missed the empire seceded, and even then they were not considered dangerous enough to do more than covertly funding the resistance. The Empire was the Old Republic administration taken over and subverted by a mastermind. The First Order are dregs who managed to become dangerous because their enemy didn't find them worthy of their attention.
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Dec 14, 2017 14:43
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I didn't enjoy it as much as TFA -though I'm in the minority and really liked TFA. I'm not even sure I liked it, though I didn't dislike it for the reasons I was worried for (recycling plot points from the original films) because it certainly was different to other star wars films. Honestly don't know why people hate the bombers, I absolutely loved the first space battle other than the terrible humour right at the beginning. It's just a continuation of the WW2-esque dogfighting aesthetic which makes the star wars space battle so appealing to watch. They felt visceral and real in the 100 computer games, tv shows and spinoffs haven't really been able to replicate and I think it's my favourite part of the whole film. The flim itself is FAR too long, the whole cantina planet/board the dreadnought plot served no purpose whatsoever and could have been cut completely. I also think there's too many characters. I re-watched the OT recently and it's good because it focuses on Han, Leia and Luke with supporting characters supplementing, and one main bad guy in Vader. There are other characters, but you emotionally invest in pretty much those three - and in this film it's all emotion all the time and spread too thinly over too big a cast. There's no down-time, it's just one person sacrificing themselves to the next attempting to sacrifice themselves. A relentlessly suffocating emotional mire that doesn't really ever drop off, it's just peak emotion all the time and it tired me out watching it. The antagonists don't really work as well, which I think is the biggest weakness. There's no real dread when they don't seem to be doing anything to have a cohesive plan or reason for existance, Snoke and Ren just get in the way of each other, and Ren seems less conflicted and more just contradictory in action. Also, Rey not been anyone important is the one biggest thing it got right - aping the most iconic moment from the original series would have been pathetically obvious. I also really liked the Yoda scene, though it's perhaps because I watched Empire two days ago and just really love Yoda schooling Luke because of long buried nostalgia.
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Dec 14, 2017 14:45
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Milky Moor posted:It's also a bit weird because I don't think there's ever been an instance where Star Wars has drawn that much attention to, for lack of a better term, fleet movements and logistics? It feels like it depends on a lot of sudden contrivances, such as hyperspace and non-hyperspace fuel being the same thing. I'm fairly sure ESB and R1 have shown that you can track ships through hyperspace, too. But going jump-jump-jump might've invited comparisons to BSG's 33 episode. This is how you can have the Separatist fleet ambushing the very capital of the Republic in RotS.
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Dec 14, 2017 14:58
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The biggest positive for me about this film is that it feels like the first modern star wars, it pays respect to the past but not constrained by it. It has so many ideas that it wants to get across and sometimes stumbles over itself to show them off. It also fits into my theory of the USA's national daddy issue/boomers v Millennials but i am crap at writing the words so I'll save that rant for another day.
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Dec 14, 2017 15:02
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Weasling Weasel posted:The flim itself is FAR too long, the whole cantina planet/board the dreadnought plot served no purpose whatsoever and could have been cut completely. Kurzon fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Dec 14, 2017 |
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Dec 14, 2017 15:05
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Kurzon posted:I think those two scenes serve the subversive themes of the movie, which is that talented mavericks are more trouble than they're worth. Poe gambles the survival of the Resistance for the opportunity to take out a dreadnought and loses all their bombers. Finn and Rose's adventure to the casino planet is a total fiasco and they make things worse. Really, each of these characters deserve to be shot for disobedience, never mind demoted. The audience expected these gambles to pay off but they backfired. This was the most exciting Star Wars movie I've seen since ESB. Ahhh, yes. That fits in with Luke talking about being a legend and how mortals can never live up to the hype.
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Dec 14, 2017 15:08
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Kurzon posted:No, before this movie I had seen a certain logic to hyperspace travel. 1) Ships travel very fast, like you can cross the galaxy in a day or two. 2) Jumping to hyperspace is an excellent escape because you can't be tracked (unless your enemy knows your destination) 3) You can only travel through charted space, though (proper calculations and all that) I... What? Being able to launch a sneak attack isn't equivalent to tracking an escaping ship. You might not be able to see someone coming but SW has established that it is possible to track ships. Vader pursues Leia's ship from Scarif to Tatooine. We can assume Vader didn't know where she was going. And I'm fairly sure in ESB, Vader has a line like 'calculate all possible destinations along that exit vector' when he thinks the Falcon has escaped which means the logic has to be something other than 'go from anywhere to anywhere'. And, of course, if it is so impossible why can some kind of tech figure out what's going on in about ten seconds?
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Dec 14, 2017 15:09
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Kurzon posted:I think those two scenes serve the subversive themes of the movie, which is that talented mavericks are more trouble than they're worth. Poe gambles the survival of the Resistance for the opportunity to take out a dreadnought and loses all their bombers. Finn and Rose's adventure to the casino planet is a total fiasco and they make things worse. Really, each of these characters deserve to be shot for disobedience, never mind demoted. The audience expected these gambles to pay off but they backfired. This was the most exciting Star Wars movie I've seen since ESB.
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Dec 14, 2017 15:09
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I think the idea that every sequence in a film must serve the main plot is silly. Sometimes digressions are absolutely wonderful. 2001: A Space Odyssey was interesting because of its wandering plot.
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Dec 14, 2017 15:13
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Just got back from seeing it. It was better than TFA, which to be honest really isn't all that hard to do. Ok, but not great. The casino detour is in the same order of tempo derail as the Ewoks in RotJ, it just didn't need to be there at all. The ending also felt like it should have been the ending of movie 3, not movie 2. None of the humour worked for me either, it all felt crass, forced, and essentially American. It had no timing or subtlety. In fact, the funniest things in the whole movie were watching these super important JJ characters getting cheaply merked after doing nothing of consequence, to the point that Phasma didn't need a name, and the secret mystery of Snoke turned out to be "He's the macguffin". Rian Johnson actually found a way to make the bad movie that preceded TLJ look even worse by comparison. NTRabbit fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Dec 14, 2017 |
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Dec 14, 2017 15:42
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People keep saying that they like Rey being a nobody because it means she's not special, but the thing is, she is special. Just for no explainable reason. I mean, the Supreme Leader says that someone has to balance out Ren's darkness, but why her, specifically? I don't understand how a divine blessing for no particular reason makes a character less special than being the descendant of someone special does. I mean, maybe that ending scene is supposed to imply that kind of thing will happen all over the galaxy, but there's not enough information to believe that, yet.
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Dec 14, 2017 15:50
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For all the people thrilled that Rey is no one in particular: I get the sentiment that it's cool to just pass on the Jedi legacy to anyone, and you don’t have to have special bloodlines or anything. But how in the world is her parents being irrelevant compatible with the existing narrative? Basically the only thing Rey learns about herself in TFA is that she is someone very special—and everyone around her believes that, too. She originally thinks she is just a worthless nobody and only wants to go home. But Han practically decides to adopt her, Maz Kanata is super excited about Luke's lightsaber calling to her, and Kylo is outraged at hearing that some mysterious girl happened to be seen with BB-8, even when he knows nothing else about her. She has visions of Luke's past and has dreamed for years about the island where he lives. And so the resolution to this is to just drop all the mystery threads and say gently caress it? There's no new context with which to understand her abandonment, there's no one in particular who's responsible for her hardscrabble life, no one for her to rage at and maybe eventually forgive?
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Dec 14, 2017 15:57
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Beeez posted:People keep saying that they like Rey being a nobody because it means she's not special, but the thing is, she is special. Just for no explainable reason. I mean, the Supreme Leader says that someone has to balance out Ren's darkness, but why her, specifically? I don't understand how a divine blessing for no particular reason makes a character less special than being the descendant of someone special does. I mean, maybe that ending scene is supposed to imply that kind of thing will happen all over the galaxy, but there's not enough information to believe that, yet. It further reinforces the "balance" aspect. Kylo is someone, Rey is noone
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Dec 14, 2017 16:02
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Okay, but if Kylo's opposite number is a nobody, why this nobody in particular? It'd make sense if she had awakened those powers once she and Kylo's minds touched, but before that she already has Anakin's lightsaber calling out to her for no particular reason.
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Dec 14, 2017 16:19
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Beeez posted:Okay, but if Kylo's opposite number is a nobody, why this nobody in particular? It'd make sense if she had awakened those powers once she and Kylo's minds touched, but before that she already has Anakin's lightsaber calling out to her for no particular reason. Because that's after Luke has cut himself off from the force. After that the force is looking for it vessel and Rey is it. I'll like "why am I my parents child?" "I just am".
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Dec 14, 2017 16:23
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The shattering of Snoke's ship was so loving cool.
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Dec 14, 2017 16:26
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