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xtothez posted:Oh no, I agree with you that the retcon would be stupid. The fact it's such a silly idea is precisely why it's been picked as the primary justification by these people to excuse what they really think, and also why they shouldn't be take seriously in any way. Agreed. bonds0097 posted:Heck yes, but I have to paint all my grey plastic first. Currently working on tzeentch stuff, which is about as representative and progressive a faction as you can get! I would argue that you don't get much more inclusive than Papa Nurgle. I don't think I will ever conquer my painting backlog. Fortunately my airbrush at least makes my current army go much faster.
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Dec 15, 2017 15:09
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Gyro Zeppeli posted:Because people would then demand Slaaneshi female CSM and that's a dark road to go down. Just throw some ladies in a new standard CSM sprue. People can do them how they like. Fluff-wise, they can say that Fabius Bile figured out a new Space Marine process so they can be the size of Primaris Marines too.
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Dec 15, 2017 15:41
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Broken Record Talk posted:That Salamanders retcon is so cringey. I've always had mixed feelings about this. On one hand we had a chapter we could point to and say "Okay, we've got some representation here, even if it's literally ghetto-ized to Nocturne", but I usually come back around to the position that having a "black planet" and a "black chapter" in a setting full of white guys was lovely and token as gently caress. Similarly I don't like the idea of Fenris as a planet of all Scandinavians and paint half my Wolves black or brown. I also think having something that people opposed to representation in the hobby can point to and say "see, these marines are all black, these sisters are all female, 40k doesn't have a problem" is troublesome in its own way. I don't like seeing these groups pigeonholed all into one faction or another.
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Dec 15, 2017 15:52
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I don't think anybody wants female Orks because that retroactively makes regular Orks male and right now they're all asexual fungus
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Dec 15, 2017 16:02
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... but they're also Boyz.
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Dec 15, 2017 16:03
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Deified Data posted:I've always had mixed feelings about this. On one hand we had a chapter we could point to and say "Okay, we've got some representation here, even if it's literally ghetto-ized to Nocturne", but I usually come back around to the position that having a "black planet" and a "black chapter" in a setting full of white guys was lovely and token as gently caress. Similarly I don't like the idea of Fenris as a planet of all Scandinavians and paint half my Wolves black or brown. I also think having something that people opposed to representation in the hobby can point to and say "see, these marines are all black, these sisters are all female, 40k doesn't have a problem" is troublesome in its own way. I don't like seeing these groups pigeonholed all into one faction or another. It's monoculture at a planetary scale. It would be cool if they used the fleet-based chapters and Deathwatch to showcase the alternative. Same with Primaris since those guys are literally grown from banks of genetic stock.
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Dec 15, 2017 16:05
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:Same with Primaris since those guys are literally grown from banks of genetic stock. Again, they're not.the first bunch were heresy/immediately post heresy neophytes put on ice once their augmentation was completed, any more made now are literally just 3 extra steps added to the process of making a marine.
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Dec 15, 2017 16:12
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there's an old, old black library book, Storm of Iron, about the Iron Warriors besieging an imperial fortress on a desert planet. one of the IW characters is a khorne-worshiping warsmith, and one of the subplots is his interaction with a slave he chooses from the imperial prisoners the IW take in the course of the fighting, a female Guard captain. Her work mostly consists of cleaning the Iron Warrior's power armor of all the encrusted blood he gets on it in the course of a day, but all the while she's seeing and hearing the insanely cruel uses to which the other slaves are being put. the hate that sparks and stokes in her for the Iron Warriors generally, and her captor in particular, is enough to get the attention of the Khorne daemon hammered into this warsmith's battle plate. the demon feeds on her hate, and feeds more back to her, whispering that she can have her freedom if she just puts on the power armor herself. towards the end of the campaign the warsmith returns to his quarters to find his armor occupied and the slave, now fully fused with the armor through the daemon's influence, kills him and takes her former master's place in the IW ranks for the assault on the last imperial bastion. the guardswoman-in-armor goes on to wreak so much slaughter among the IG and Imperial Fists that she ascends to full daemonhood at the climax of the final battle. definitely one of the more interesting ideas graham mcneill ever had 1994 Toyota Celica fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Dec 15, 2017 |
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Dec 15, 2017 16:18
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I'm sure at some point Bulbasaur will come in to remind us that space marines abduct young boys to recruit and someone else will mention that there's a bunch of tongue-in-cheek dark humor about a fascist human patriarchy among slightly less worse aliens and much worse aliens and demons of chaos. And all of that means absolute dick in 2017. I was born in 1987, so I can't speak to what 40k was like back then and only learned about the game's existence in 2009 and didn't get involved until 2012. So I have no idea if people that consumed this media were in on the joke or just as clueless about the subtext then as they are today. Reader experience matters in media and exists in a living culture. There is no reason that women can't be space marines. The lore makes it so, but that's because it was written in a time where inclusiveness in male-dominated nerd hobbies was not on the radar like it has been over the last several years. Make it so that women can be space marines. Make it so that women are visibly in the Astra Militarum by providing models of both sexes. Make it so that females of alien species are represented (exceptions apply for asexual aliens, but an alien race ruled by a hivemind having their troops almost entirely named after female monsters implies poor decisions in design and orks all being essentially male).
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Dec 15, 2017 16:22
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Guy Goodbody posted:I don't understand why people want female Space Marines so much when female Chaos Space Marines would be so much better. One does crop up in one of the books. A CSM takes a human woman prisoner as a slave, but Khorne decides that her hatred and rage are so much more fun than her master's, who's on the verge of deteriorating into another common berserker. She makes a deal with Khorne for revenge, steals the CSM's armor, murders him, and subsequently more or less becomes a daemon prince[ss].
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Dec 15, 2017 16:26
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Star Man posted:There is no reason that women can't be space marines. The lore makes it so, but that's because it was written in a time where inclusiveness in male-dominated nerd hobbies was not on the radar like it has been over the last several years. It's not just that, the whole Imperium is very Catholic. The Emperor is god, the Primarchs were his apostles, the Space Marines are priests, the Sisters are nuns. IMO, for that reason it's fine to keep the Space Marines all men as long as Sisters get proper representation in the fluff and the game, and IG, Eldar, and Tau get a decent male/female split in the minis, and they throw in a female Necron character or two. Also there should be female Chaos Marines.
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Dec 15, 2017 16:29
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Cythereal posted:One does crop up in one of the books. A CSM takes a human woman prisoner as a slave, but Khorne decides that her hatred and rage are so much more fun than her master's, who's on the verge of deteriorating into another common berserker. She makes a deal with Khorne for revenge, steals the CSM's armor, murders him, and subsequently more or less becomes a daemon prince[ss]. 
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Dec 15, 2017 16:29
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Artum posted:Again, they're not.the first bunch were heresy/immediately post heresy neophytes put on ice once their augmentation was completed, any more made now are literally just 3 extra steps added to the process of making a marine. There's an implication in the Blood Angels codex that it may be an entirely separate process to create Primaris. I personally think it's just poorly worded and nerds who are bitter about the new models are getting way too worked about about it. The relevant section : "In the wake of Leviathan’s defeat, the Blood Angels begin to rebuild. Their gene-seed stocks are recalled, taking their rightful place beneath the rising arches of the restored Arx Angelicum. The several thousand grizzled aspirants who survived the siege are all inducted, and those that endure are funnelled into the outsized Scout Companies authorised by Commander Dante for his Chapter and their successors. The ranks are further bolstered by a huge influx of Primaris Space Marines, unfrozen from the vaults of the Zar-Quaesitor or produced upon Baal itself using the newly installed mechanisms brought by Archmagos Caw" It wouldn't make any sense for the Blood Angels to keep making small marines but it does seem to imply that the huge batch of new scouts are separate from the Primaris production.
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Dec 15, 2017 16:31
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Deified Data posted:I've always had mixed feelings about this. On one hand we had a chapter we could point to and say "Okay, we've got some representation here, even if it's literally ghetto-ized to Nocturne", but I usually come back around to the position that having a "black planet" and a "black chapter" in a setting full of white guys was lovely and token as gently caress. Similarly I don't like the idea of Fenris as a planet of all Scandinavians and paint half my Wolves black or brown. I also think having something that people opposed to representation in the hobby can point to and say "see, these marines are all black, these sisters are all female, 40k doesn't have a problem" is troublesome in its own way. I don't like seeing these groups pigeonholed all into one faction or another. They're definitely pushing to get more diversity within factions with the more recent releases, at least as far as skin tones go. And there are definite plans for more women in the model ranges. Marines are an odd one because while they do fall into the Star Wars trap of person from world X is Y so all people from X are Y, the colour of their skin is entirely down to the individual painter and not fixed at one canonical tone. Except the Salamanders who were never meant to be black in the Afro-Caribbean sense, but rather black with red eyes in a demonic twist on the trope of the least beautiful being the most humane.
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Dec 15, 2017 16:31
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Artum posted:Again, they're not.the first bunch were heresy/immediately post heresy neophytes put on ice once their augmentation was completed, any more made now are literally just 3 extra steps added to the process of making a marine. Huh, didn't know that. Guess I should read the fluff. OTOH since there are enough neophytes to make entirely new chapters you would think at least some of them could be brown.
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Dec 15, 2017 16:32
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Except the Salamanders who were never meant to be black in the Afro-Caribbean sense, but rather black with red eyes in a demonic twist on the trope of the least beautiful being the most humane. The original official GW models were literally brown skinned men. GW retconned it, it wasn't a question of how things were "meant to be" and getting corrected.
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Dec 15, 2017 16:37
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Guy Goodbody posted:It's not just that, the whole Imperium is very Catholic. The Emperor is god, the Primarchs were his apostles, the Space Marines are priests, the Sisters are nuns. There is one female Necron character in the fluff: Xun'bakyr, the Mother of Oblivion. She's from the Maynarkh Dynasty, introduced in some Imperial Armor book or other in 7E, and is notable for somehow permanently killing a C'Tan and being the military leader of an infamously bloodthirsty and ruthless Necron dynasty. No, she got no artwork and wasn't a tabletop model.
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Dec 15, 2017 16:39
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zeal posted:there's an old, old black library book, Storm of Iron, about the Iron Warriors besieging an imperial fortress on a desert planet. one of the IW characters is a khorne-worshiping warsmith, and one of the subplots is his interaction with a slave he chooses from the imperial prisoners the IW take in the course of the fighting, a female Guard captain. Her work mostly consists of cleaning the Iron Warrior's power armor of all the encrusted blood he gets on it in the course of a day, but all the while she's seeing and hearing the insanely cruel uses to which the other slaves are being put. the hate that sparks and stokes in her for the Iron Warriors generally, and her captor in particular, is enough to get the attention of the Khorne daemon hammered into this warsmith's battle plate. the demon feeds on her hate, and feeds more back to her, whispering that she can have her freedom if she just puts on the power armor herself. towards the end of the campaign the warsmith returns to his quarters to find his armor occupied and the slave, now fully fused with the armor through the daemon's influence, kills him and takes her former master's place in the IW ranks for the assault on the last imperial bastion. the guardswoman-in-armor goes on to wreak so much slaughter among the IG and Imperial Fists that she ascends to full daemonhood at the climax of the final battle. This is cool and good and I forgot I had that book.
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Dec 15, 2017 16:39
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zeal posted:there's an old, old black library book, Storm of Iron, about the Iron Warriors besieging an imperial fortress on a desert planet. one of the IW characters is a khorne-worshiping warsmith, and one of the subplots is his interaction with a slave he chooses from the imperial prisoners the IW take in the course of the fighting, a female Guard captain. Her work mostly consists of cleaning the Iron Warrior's power armor of all the encrusted blood he gets on it in the course of a day, but all the while she's seeing and hearing the insanely cruel uses to which the other slaves are being put. the hate that sparks and stokes in her for the Iron Warriors generally, and her captor in particular, is enough to get the attention of the Khorne daemon hammered into this warsmith's battle plate. the demon feeds on her hate, and feeds more back to her, whispering that she can have her freedom if she just puts on the power armor herself. towards the end of the campaign the warsmith returns to his quarters to find his armor occupied and the slave, now fully fused with the armor through the daemon's influence, kills him and takes her former master's place in the IW ranks for the assault on the last imperial bastion. the guardswoman-in-armor goes on to wreak so much slaughter among the IG and Imperial Fists that she ascends to full daemonhood at the climax of the final battle. I remember that. I always liked that from the Imperials' perspective, a super angry Iron Warrior started smashing up the other Iron Warriors, then smashed through the lines into the Imperials, smashed through them for awhile, and then just disappeared and was never seen or heard from again.
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Dec 15, 2017 16:46
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Just picked up a couple of wave serpents, and it turns out that the kit comes with enough weapons/covers to have a primary and sideboard for quick-swaps. Shurilen Cannons are default but the second option is a bit more of a difficult choice. Can someone give me the mathhammer between Twin Bright Lance, Twin Star Cannon, Twin Aeldari Missile Launcher and Twin Scatter Lasers?
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Dec 15, 2017 16:54
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Guy Goodbody posted:I don't think anybody wants female Orks because that retroactively makes regular Orks male and right now they're all asexual fungus Literally the only thing supporting that is just that they say they are. Orks present as male in every other way possible. They use male pronouns, call each other Boyz, are masculine, and so on.
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Dec 15, 2017 17:02
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Cythereal posted:One does crop up in one of the books. A CSM takes a human woman prisoner as a slave, but Khorne decides that her hatred and rage are so much more fun than her master's, who's on the verge of deteriorating into another common berserker. She makes a deal with Khorne for revenge, steals the CSM's armor, murders him, and subsequently more or less becomes a daemon prince[ss]. Storm of Iron, and it is a great moment. As for female Necrons, would they look any different?
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Dec 15, 2017 17:04
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JoshTheStampede posted:Literally the only thing supporting that is just that they say they are. Orks present as male in every other way possible. They use male pronouns, call each other Boyz, are masculine, and so on. There's a squig for everything.
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Dec 15, 2017 17:06
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Storm of Iron is the only good book McNeill has written.Beer4TheBeerGod posted:The original official GW models were literally brown skinned men. GW retconned it, it wasn't a question of how things were "meant to be" and getting corrected. This is a Rogue Trader era Salamander.  I'm open to the idea that I'm wrong about this, GW did some lovely things 35 years ago. However the story I've always heard was that the brown skin was a miscommunication with the painting team when they did that army after many years of the chapter laying fallow. Cythereal posted:No, she got no artwork and wasn't a tabletop model. How would you tell a female Necron model from a male one?
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Dec 15, 2017 17:06
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DiHK posted:Just picked up a couple of wave serpents, and it turns out that the kit comes with enough weapons/covers to have a primary and sideboard for quick-swaps. Shurilen Cannons are default but the second option is a bit more of a difficult choice. Against what?
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Dec 15, 2017 17:06
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Uroboros posted:Storm of Iron, and it is a great moment. Only slightly, narrower shoulders wider pelvis and the like and hard to tell at a glance, but then being space Egyptians a lot of it would be down to their manner of dress anyway. Artum fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Dec 15, 2017 |
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Dec 15, 2017 17:06
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Quote was not edit. * Finally happened, well it was a good 5 and a half years.
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Dec 15, 2017 17:07
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:How would you tell a female Necron model from a male one? I don't think you could, but Xun'bakyr remains the lone Necron ever identified in the fluff as a woman and I for one am not prepared to give GW the benefit of the doubt that "oh your army is totally mixed gender now please stop making a fuss while we constantly refer to them with masculine pronouns and there's only one token female character in the fluff." I don't buy it with Tau or Guard, and I don't buy it with Necrons.
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Dec 15, 2017 17:08
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Cythereal posted:I don't think you could, but Xun'bakyr remains the lone Necron ever identified in the fluff as a woman and I for one am not prepared to give GW the benefit of the doubt that "oh your army is totally mixed gender now please stop making a fuss while we constantly refer to them with masculine pronouns and there's only one token female character in the fluff." I don't buy it with Tau or Guard, and I don't buy it with Necrons. Uh huh. Cool. That's not actually what GW says but okay. While you're on your high horse please start telling us about how ADB is a paedo again.
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Dec 15, 2017 17:13
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:This is a Rogue Trader era Salamander. Huh. Look at me being wrong.
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Dec 15, 2017 17:14
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:Huh. Look at me being wrong. It's possible they also had colloquially 'black' Salamanders at the same time, I don't know how much of a handle they had on stuff then. But at the very least it makes the story plausible.
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Dec 15, 2017 17:16
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:How would you tell a female Necron model from a male one? Probably like this 
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Dec 15, 2017 17:16
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Zark the Damned posted:Probably like this Eww
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Dec 15, 2017 17:18
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Zark the Damned posted:Probably like this Your image isn't showing for me in thread, but it is on the reply page. Odd.
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Dec 15, 2017 17:18
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Schadenboner posted:It's an Our Martyred Lady thing and they're the postergirl order so people think it's SoB-wide. Not sure why OML does it, maybe Katherine was a child of the corn? Katherine was one of the original sisters who accompanied Dominica to see The Emperor. After seeing the Big E on the golden throne it was noted all of their hair turned white. So the sisters of The Martyred Lady all dye their hair in her honor, same with their black and red colored armor which is considered funerary garb. Least I think that's why they do it, been a long while since I looked at the Sister's lore.
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Dec 15, 2017 17:20
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I really hope that when the do plastic Sisters you have the option of giving them all helmets. The SoB helm is one of the coolest designs GW have ever made for power armour.
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Dec 15, 2017 17:24
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Zark the Damned posted:Probably like this 
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Dec 15, 2017 17:28
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My favorite Aaron Dembski-Bowden moment is when Octavia in the Night Lords trilogy gets hosed to orgasm by a Strike Cruiser.
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Dec 15, 2017 17:29
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I hope so as well, the sisters helms are so drat cool but so rare! I have about 40 regular sisters and only 8 of them have helms, I use them as Celestians. Being the vets they are the only ones smart enough to wear all of their armor.
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Dec 15, 2017 17:32
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Storm of Iron is the only good book McNeill has written. The one comment I remember about that book is reading a forum post, I believe either on SA or some other old 40k forum I posted on, was someone hurling that book against a wall because they thought it was so bad. Lovely Joe Stalin posted:I really hope that when the do plastic Sisters you have the option of giving them all helmets. The SoB helm is one of the coolest designs GW have ever made for power armour. Meanwhile all I'd ask for is a whole bunch of different hairstyles. Even something as base as a sidecut because the page style has never worked for me all that much.
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