|
FreshlyShaven posted:Why exactly would we have to do that? The Palestinians are not responsible for the cowardly and unjust actions of the Iraqi or Jordanian or Yemeni or Egyptian (etc.) governments, especially since the PLO and other Palestinian factions had always opposed those expulsions. I support pressuring the Arab governments who ethnically cleansed or otherwise grossly mistreated their Jewish populations to apologize for the expulsions/mistreatment and to offer compensation and citizenship to the expelled and their descendants. However, a) these efforts have nothing to do with ending Israeli apartheid or fighting for the Palestinian Right of Return since the Palestinians are not the perpetrators of these acts and b) the Middle Eastern Jews themselves have little interest in their Right of Return; when Israel signed peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan, Israel never demanded that the latter governments offer citizenship to Jews of Egyptian or Jordanian descent, presumably because they felt it unimportant(they would have had no problem getting both governments to agree, given the small numbers and considering that both countries made far greater concessions, had they actually pushed it) and felt no political pressure to secure such rights from their own Mizrahi population. When Iraq granted the Right of Return to the Jews it had previously ethnically cleansed and their descendants, how many Iraqi Jews left Israel to claim their new Iraqi citizenship(hint: not many.) I'm not linking the two. The Palestinians didn't do this and in fact it certainly made things worse for them. The Arab nations did it of course.
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2017 21:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 16:39 |
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:There's this wonderful book called "One People: The Story of the Eastern Jews" that chronicles the cultures of the various Mizrahim across the regions, from Morocco to Bukharia. It has dense text and gorgeous photographs. It also describes in detail the heartbreaking kind of antisemitism they faced, which was not quite so bad as the Ashkenazim got at the hands of the friggin' Europeans, but still pretty drat bad. You'd be better served if you recited your posts to some refugees' faces, or maybe some poor fuckers detained without trial, or to a family without electricity
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2017 21:32
|
|
|
A two-state solution is probably the best bet, and the Palestine nation has to be a real state ... not swiss cheese with Israeli settlements scattered about the territory. Don't see how it ever happens unless imposed by others.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2017 21:35
|
|
|
Nebalebadingdong posted:You'd be better served if you recited your posts to some refugees' faces, or maybe some poor fuckers detained without trial, or to a family without electricity "Sorry dude, you can't return to the home the people I self-identify with kicked you out of because in the time of the Caliphates, all the non-Muslim men of age were taxed at a different rate in return for not being compelled to serve in the military and the freedom to practice their religion with relative autonomy. I know that doesn't sound that bad, but some Arabs took advantage of the system and we just can't have that happen again. Better safe than sorry!"
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2017 21:38
|
|
|
I tried to buy a McDouble with hunger, but they wouldn't give it to me. I complained to one of the other customers, but they refused to get a McDouble on my behalf. I got my stick and told the staff that giving me a free McDouble was their best bet. Please send help; I told the cops about my broken childhood but they still won't let me go. Please don't fight, guys. This will all be decided in the 3rd Intifada.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2017 21:44
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:Grand Mufti Amin al-Husseyni gave a speech demanding that Jewish immigration be banned, that Jews be banned from purchasing land, and recent immigrants be deported. Man, that sounds horrible. Good thing Rabbis are so much better than Muftis. Refusing to sell or rent land to people from the "other" group is a horrible crime. I'm glad we had this talk about why Palestinians are uniquely bad and evil.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2017 21:50
|
|
|
It's great seeing a genuine apologist for ethnic cleansing. Truly wonderful. Yes, Jews were mistreated under the Ottoman and previous empires. While tragic and infuriating, it's not a justification for ethnic cleansing or apartheid in the here and now nor is it fair to target Palestinians for ethnic cleansing become you've deemed them intrinsically antisemitic. In most places, people behaved quite differently and held much different beliefs than they do today, but of course not for the eternal Oriental, right? quote:The fact that this is used as basis for claims of indigeneity specifically to Israel/Palestine is particularly disturbing (I am not native American just because my great-great-great-grandmother was Sacagewea. This isn't how indigeneity works) This is just crazy talk. Palestinians are indigenous to Palestine; this is beyond question. It's also disturbing to hear you claim that as soon as someone converts from Judaism, they lose their rights; you do realize that Palestinians are descended from numerous peoples of the Levant, including the ancient Israelites and Judeans, right? Or does their right to live in their homes at peace disappear as soon as they marry a non-Jew or convert to Christianity or Islam? quote:Early Zionism featured Jews immigrating to the area You do not seem to understand the difference between immigration and colonization. There's a huge difference and learning that difference might help you understand the issue. As Jabotinsky wrote in the Iron Wall, quote:There can be no voluntary agreement between ourselves and the Palestine Arabs. Not now, nor in the prospective future... it is utterly impossible to obtain the voluntary consent of the Palestine Arabs for converting "Palestine" from an Arab country into a country with a Jewish majority. quote:buying farmland from Syrian and Turkish absentee landlords, letting go of the Palestinian workers. The Ottoman government took weak measures to counteract this, but the ineffective bureaucracy was easily foiled. Anger that Jewish immigrants were coming to Palestine and 'taking our jobs' persisted through the British Mandate era. That's a very, um, interesting way to describe an act of racial and religious discrimination which devastated innocent civilians' lives. If you were expelled from the land your ancestors had farmed for centuries and where you had buried your parents and married your spouse and which served as your main source of income simply because of your race or ethnicity, I'm sure you'd consider it no big deal, right? quote:In 1920, the Nebi Musa Riots happened. The colonized frequently rise up in acts of violence against the colonizers. There were plenty of massacres of Europeans in Asia and Africa in response to European colonization and there were plenty of massacres of white colonists at the hands of Native Americans. Brutal as these massacres are, they do not justify colonialism or ethnic cleansing nor do they prove the impossibility of peaceful coexistence within an egalitarian state. quote:Not all Palestinians are Hamas supporters, but what would happen if Hamas or a Hamas-like party came to power in 1SS Palestine More racist caricatures and more "tiger by the tail" fallacies; we can't grant Palestinians their rights and allow them to participate in the state because they might use that power to do to us what we had done to them. Hamas is not the racist caricature you make it out to be (though it certainly has a lot to hate about it) and the Palestinians have no interest in starting a civil war once they've gained their rights and can start building their future. For one thing, Hamas barely cracked 50 percent of the vote of the Occupied Territories (and most of that had to do with Palestinian disgust at PLO corruption and collaborationism) and has virtually no support within the Green Line and little in the diaspora. Secondly, Hamas does not thirst for Jew blood as you seem to assume. Third, were apartheid to end and the Right of Return to be recognized, Hamas would be under intense pressure to moderate its program (more than it already has) or fade into irrelevancy; after achieving an end to 70 years of persecution and exile and suffering, few Palestinians would vote for a party that calls for armed struggle against a state of which the Palestinians are now part and endangers everything they've gained. Your attitude only makes sense if you assume Palestinians to be bloodthirsty savages.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2017 21:51
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:For the record, I'm in favor of limited right of return combined with recompensation and patriation to their host countries. I'm just saying things are not so simple as letting them take "their" land back and historical patterns of prejudice, combined with current attitudes, have to be acknowledged. You cannot haphazardly subject Jews to the kind of conditions that could possibly facilitate another genocide–– we won't survive another, and the international community has always been absolutely terrible at preventing or punishing genocides. There's already a Hamas-like party running Israel - it's called Likud.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2017 22:07
|
|
|
Wow the Hasbara must be giving out their holiday bonuses this week for someone so stupid to start spewing nonsense here. Nameless_Steve posted:Okay, let's talk about actual discrimination against Jews in Palestine. Loving already the fanatical and ahistorical setup you start with, you've already started with the ISIS like mentality of this being a struggle between all of Judaism and the Palestinian people and not what it actually is which is a modern settler colonialist invasion and occupation and ethnic cleansing and apartheid by one group of religious/racist fanatics against an innocent group of people, this typical Zionist tactic seeks to take the argument into an larger 'clash of civilizations' which has no basis in reality nor does it have any relevance to what we're talking about, so I'm going to throw out everything your saying with regards to ancient history, since it's really obliviously not just misinformation but also a misdirection tactic idiot hasbara types like to engage in. If you want to have a discussion about the larger relationship between different Jewish groups and different Islamic groups that's a whole different beast than the modern day struggle of the Palestinian people. quote:Early Zionism featured Jews immigrating to the area and buying farmland from Syrian and Turkish absentee landlords, letting go of the Palestinian workers. The Ottoman government took weak measures to counteract this, but the ineffective bureaucracy was easily foiled. Anger that Jewish immigrants were coming to Palestine and 'taking our jobs' persisted through the British Mandate era. Actually if you had half a brain cell or any kind of honesty in you, you would've mentioned the fact that early Zionism included literature and outright proclamations by Theodore Herzl and his ilk that specifically declared that Palestine must become the homeland 'of the jewish people' (at least his definition of what that should be, namely a colonialist supremacist state in the same vein as other colonialist outposts of europe) and when someone outright asked him about the fact that many people already lived there he responded with the french proverb "he who Desires the Ends, Desires the Means" which was widely published and read by arab intellectuals as an outright threat. so you kinda forgot that part. Also Jabotinsky in the Iron Wall directly referenced the native Americans when describing the Palestinians so lol you're a loving moron if you thought that early Zionism has any sort of innocent background to it. quote:
I like how in your typical Zionist fashion you like to loving outright lie to people in a slimy and ridiculous way, first, you set up a date like '1920' without mentioning three things. 1) this was after Palestine had come under British occupation and Arabs far and wide were beginning to resist colonialism. There were PLENTY of anti-colonial riots around the world, including the one you're talking about. 2) This was THREE YEARS after the British outright declared that the Palestinians will LOSE THEIR COUNTRY BY FORCE through the Balfour declaration. and unlike many of your propaganda likes to say Palestinians were well read and understood the full ramifications of what that meant. 3) that Britain was ACTIVELY SUPPRESSING the Palestinians and ENFORCING colonialism by gunpoint, calling for a ban on that British-sponsored immigration thats OBVIOUSLY an implementation of the balfour declaration is pretty loving right by the palestinians considering that it was their country that was being handed off to non-natives. Riots was absolutely going to happen as a response to this. 4) Your addition of 'chants' and stuff doesn't mean anything and is just there for the sake of falsely painting Palestinians as subhuman anti-semites, and hajj amin al husseini can say what he wants, he wasnt an elected representative of the Palestinian people and clerics saying extreme things when you're homeland is being colonized and handed over is normal. The Palestinian people as a whole has zero culpability for what an unelected cleric says. considering that at this point the wheels of colonialism were in motion, riots and violence by the colonized people was absolutely going to be a case and this belies your notion of the palestinians being 'the oppressors' or whatever garbage you tell yourself. quote:The Balfour Declaration is infamous, promising a homeland in Palestine for the Jewish people. But this was a meaningless and non-binding. Lol except for the fact that it actually meant everything and that within three decades it did actually destroy the Palestinian people and ended up with them becoming enslaved and ethnically cleansed by a group of (initially) largely European settlers and colonialists so gently caress you. quote:Due to pressure from crucial Arab oil allies, the White Paper shortly followed, which met several of the Palestinians' demands, including severely restricting Jewish immigration (this was not lifted until well after the Holocaust) and banning Jews from buying land in certain areas, as well as retconning the Balfour Declaration to mean a non-state homeland.This discrimination was demanded by the Palestinians and enforced by the British. I like how you tried to argue that the white paper (which was never implemented btw because WW2 happened) was more important than the balfour declaration, and how you tried to paint this as the palestinians being the oppressive force while conveniently forgetting a little something called the 'the great Arab Revolt' of 1936-1938 in which the Palestinian people (many of them having become landless and jobless and marginalized economically and politically by the british sponsorship of the Zionist movement) tried to free themselves from colonialism, foreign occupation and the implementation of the Balfour declaration by the British mandate, TENS OF THOUSANDS were killed, wounded, detained and exiled by a combined British-Zionist force. AT NO POINT were the Palestinians in any form of power to decide the fate of their own country outside of British demands let alone being the 'Oppressors'. quote:No matter who was in power, the Palestinians were no magical exception to the maxim that goyim have been historically, really loving terrible to Jews. First off, again, this has nothing to do with 'Jews' or whatever you're saying, second the Palestinians were never given any power, third, the Zionists pretty much proved that the Palestinians were right all along to be as paranoid as they were, since historical facts pretty much showed that it was the racist, supremacist and fundamentalist ideology of Zionism that was the oppressors and that was never going to budge on erasing Palestine and enslaving the Palestinians under apartheid. read a book or two sometime, or maybe not since it's pretty clear you're an insane fanatic who wont bother. Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Dec 14, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2017 22:32
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:The fact that this is used as basis for claims of indigeneity specifically to Israel/Palestine is particularly disturbing (I am not native American just because my great-great-great-grandmother was Sacagewea. This isn't how indigeneity works) lmao how dumb are you Is this the Zionist version of those morons who believed the Afrikaner government when they said South Africa was empty until whites arrived, and really it's the black people who are the latecomers trying to colonize us. Oh all those ancient ruins, hm well they're just evidence of a lost white civilization and/or communist fakes.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 01:47
|
|
Grouchio posted:I think that both Israel and Palestine have very, very bad karma with roots going back 100 years since Balfour, and equally deserve whatever comes to them. Did you ask someone on the forum to give you a 250 word summary of the subject before you made this completely vacuous and useless post?
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 08:25
|
|
|
Palestinians not being autochthonous really doesn't effect the morality of a group of Europeans who haven't seen Palestine in a thousand years appearing there and evicting literally whoever the gently caress is living there. Israel complains that Palestinians retain refugee rights across two generations, on the other hand.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 08:32
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:lmao how dumb are you Al Saqr: Jabotinsky wasn't early-stage Zionism. He was a Revisionist Zionist. Early Zionism was about individual settlement; Revisionist Zionism arose in response to Palestinian Arab violence (Battle of Tel Hai; Nabi Musa riots; the Hevron Massacre; and the Safed Massacre). It split from the mainstream Zionist organizations, who rejected the idea of Jewish statehood. Middle stage Zionism saw independence and self-defense as necessary for Jews to exist safely in their homeland, the only place non-assimilated Jews have ever called home, but this was different from the early Zionists. Zionist kibbutzniks didn't even first pick up guns until after 1920.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 09:20
|
|
|
Honestly, it's unsurprising how ill-informed you all are. Let's start with some of the claims that the British were helpful to the Zionist cause. They weren't.quote:subhuman anti-semites quote:the white paper (which was never implemented btw because WW2 happened) quote:British-sponsored immigration Holocaust refugees illegally immigrated to Mandate Palestine and if they weren't sent right back to Axis territory, the British imprisoned them at internment camps such as the Atlit Detention Camp, which imprisoned dozens of thousands of Jews for the crime of escaping the Holocaust between 1939-1945. The British kept them imprisoned because were going to send them back to Europe after the war, but Irgun attacked the camp and busted out the prisoners. If you want a thrilling tale of loving heroism, check out Redemption of the Unwanted from your local library.  Jews in the British-run Atlit Internment Camp, where thousands of "illegal immigrant" Holocaust refugees were imprisoned between 1939-1945In 1942, the British did everything they could to prevent the MV Sturma, a ship containing 800 holocaust refugees, from reaching Palestine. It was eventually towed out to sea without working engines or food and water, and then fired upon and sunk by a Russian submarine. All but one aboard were killed.  quote:2) This was THREE YEARS after the British outright declared that the Palestinians will LOSE THEIR COUNTRY BY FORCE through the Balfour declaration. and unlike many of your propaganda likes to say Palestinians were well read and understood the full ramifications of what that meant. You mean the one that said "it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country." Also is it propaganda to note that the pre-1932 literacy rate among non-Jewish Palestinians was only 22%? It seems to me that the literate upper classes simply lied to the lower classes to rile them up and keep them afraid and under their control. Let's take a look at that 1939 White Paper again, which we've now established was law, as opposed to the Balfour Declaration, which was a letter. Its effect, limiting Jewish immigration to the only place they've ever belonged (while every other country of the world closed their ports) in the middle of the Holocaust, is responsible for unknown thousands, hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions of deaths. That's why it's more important. White Paper of 1939 posted:It has been urged that the expression "a national home for the Jewish people" offered a prospect that Palestine might in due course become a Jewish State or Commonwealth. His Majesty's Government do not wish to contest the view, which was expressed by the Royal Commission, that the Zionist leaders at the time of the issue of the Balfour Declaration recognised that an ultimate Jewish State was not precluded by the terms of the Declaration. But, with the Royal Commission,His Majesty's Government believe that the framers of the Mandate in which the Balfour Declaration was embodied could not have intended that Palestine should be converted into a Jewish State against the will of the Arab population of the country. That Palestine was not to be converted into a Jewish State might be held to be implied in the passage from the Command Paper of 1922 which reads as follows So as we can see, the British quickly did everything they could to placate Arabs and Palestinians almost immediately after the Balfour Declaration, including limiting Jewish immigration and walking back any notion of promised Jewish statehood. This is why Irgun directed their "terrorism" campaign at the British, although it seems too noble for the word when your terrorism campaign includes courtesy calls to warn your target to evacuate civilians. SO TL;DR "British-sponsored immigration" BULLSHIT LIE "white paper never enforced" BULLSHIT LIE Nameless_Steve fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Dec 15, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 09:42
|
|
|
yeah the king David or Omagh were really heroic things to do and it's basically the civilians' faults for not evacuating the area when they got the bombers really lovely attempts at warnings
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 09:55
|
|
|
Arab immigration following the so called Roman diaspora wasn't at all an immigration wave that replaced and absorved the remaining jewish and Christian population. The expansion of Islam and Arabic culture in the centuries following Muhammad is known as "arabization" as the existing population was absorbed into Arabic culture and became Arabic. All demographic studies show that there was no massive immigration wave replacing the indigenous population and that the majority of Jews remained in-situ. Palestinians are as much (if not more) descendents of the ancient judeans, and they never lost their claims to their own homes just because some of them chose to convert to Islam. If the follow-up questions is: so where did the Jewish diaspora come from? Historical studies show that even before the ruination of the second temple the majority of the Jewish population already resided outside judea, with massive communities in Rome, Persia, Greece, Alexandria and other major cities.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 10:00
|
|
|
First, apologetics for ethnic cleansing, now the romanticization of Irgun, a bunch of bloodthirsty terrorists. Here's a list of Irgun attacks. Bombing marketplaces, cinemas and cafes, gunning down Palestinian civilians on the way to work or to pray, massacring Deir-Yassin like something straight out of the Eastern Front of WWII. Certainly sounds "heroic" and "noble." How can you get more noble than throwing bombs into crowded marketplaces to kill as many Arabs as possible? What is more heroic than bragging about massacring entire villages and threatening that any Arab they find still in Palestine will meet the same fate?
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 15:28
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:So as we can see, the British quickly did everything they could to placate Arabs and Palestinians almost immediately after the Balfour Declaration, including limiting Jewish immigration and walking back any notion of promised Jewish statehood. First and foremost, I'd question your use of "immediately after the Balfour Declaration", given that pretty much everything you listed took place at least two decades after the Declaration. It almost seems like you're deliberately clouding the timeline in order to make an argument that's plainly not supported by the historical facts. Aside from that...well, of course the British took measures to placate the Palestinians. After all, for some reason, the Palestinian population took just a little bit of offense when the British openly announced their intention to ethnically cleanse part of Palestine. With the resource and manpower demands of war, the British could no longer afford to deal with the civil unrest that caused, and in fact the White Paper was issued in direct response to the large-scale civil unrest now known as the "Arab Revolt". Neither brutal collective punishment nor openly arming Jewish terrorist groups was working, and the British could no longer spare the forces needed to pacify the Mandate, so they ended their pro-Zionist policies and made concessions to the Arab population in hopes that it would calm the region while the colonial troops were off fighting elsewhere.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 16:34
|
|
|
wait are we trying to glorify lehi now Literally Promised Adolf Hitler A Fascist Kingdom Of Israel In Eternal Alliance With The German Reich In Exchange For Cooperation, that lehi looool
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 16:56
|
|
|
Ah, I see we're back to the old chestnuts of "the Romans enslaved or dispersed most of the Jews thousands of years ago, they're just taking back what's theirs" and "the Palestinians are an invented people". We get it, you're well-indoctrinated, Nameless_Steve.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 17:01
|
|
|
FreshlyShaven posted:First, apologetics for ethnic cleansing, now the romanticization of Irgun, a bunch of bloodthirsty terrorists. Here's a list of Irgun attacks. Bombing marketplaces, cinemas and cafes, gunning down Palestinian civilians on the way to work or to pray, massacring Deir-Yassin like something straight out of the Eastern Front of WWII. Certainly sounds "heroic" and "noble." How can you get more noble than throwing bombs into crowded marketplaces to kill as many Arabs as possible? What is more heroic than bragging about massacring entire villages and threatening that any Arab they find still in Palestine will meet the same fate? Sounds familiar.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 17:26
|
|
|
emanresu tnuocca posted:so where did the Jewish diaspora come from? Historical studies show that even before the ruination of the second temple the majority of the Jewish population already resided outside judea, with massive communities in Rome, Persia, Greece, Alexandria and other major cities. FreshlyShaven posted:Secondly, Hamas does not thirst for Jew blood as you seem to assume. Hamas suicide bombers' videotape: We Drink Jews Blood The video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSftYIGH6-w Also, this is not a good look:  And then there's the fact that, as shown in its charter, Hamas was literally founded on Nazi propaganda and genocide: quote:"[T]he Hamas Covenant of 1988 notably replaced the Marxist-Leninist conspiracy theory of world politics with the classic anti-Semitic tropes of Nazism and European fascism, which the Islamists had absorbed when they collaborated with the Nazis during World War II. That influence is apparent in Article 22, which asserts that “supportive forces behind the enemy” have amassed great wealth: "With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. With their money, they took control of the world media. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about here and there. With their money, they formed secret societies, such as Freemason, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there." The Hamas Charter also cites the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, Hitler's favorite antisemitic fantasy conspiracy novel, and quotes the Hadith of the Garqhad tree as the Slogan of Hamas: quote:Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah's promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: And cites Jews as the enemy, and its purpose to drive out the enemy, and thus its purpose is the purging of the land of Jews: quote:Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims. This attitude persists in Hamas' propaganda and statements by its leaders: "Now more than ever I tell you – we will never recognize Israel… We will form the Palestinian state on all of Palestine's territories and the sun of liberty will burn the Zionists. To them I say – you will lose. You will leave and we will keep hounding you." And in the acts and words of Hamas' terrorists, who smile when being told how many children they murdered: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkAuvIQTzWU and describe the public's delight to hear the casualty counts coming in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uH1CS9PGI4Q Now, of course, not all Palestinians favor Hamas, and the ones who don't (especially the ones within Israel proper or here in the US) are usually quite lovely. As usual, the moderates are not the problem. This is not a matter of me choosing to see the ugly side of Palestinians and ignore the good, this is a matter of me understanding that the ugly side exists and that the antisemitism preached and practiced by Hamas and other extremists would poison and doom your one state solution. Hamas is a genocidal organization and whatever population that believe in its brainwashing and dogma cannot possibly coexist in a one state solution. You believe that antisemitism decreases over time, as though antisemitism has not flared up time and time again across the world, becoming uglier and uglier each time, and as though complacency has not been a major factor in Antisemitism's rebirth. Over 50% of the population in the Occupied Territories voted for Hamas, for this genocidal loving madness, and you're dismissive of its significance? A 1ss is playing with fire, and Jews cannot afford to be burned again. Israeli Jews, and most American Jews, understand this and will never give a chance to try this horrendous and stupid idea. You cannot expect a newly liberated people, still recovering from a major genocide, to suicidally submit itself to a potential new one.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 18:00
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:You cannot expect a newly liberated people, still recovering from a major genocide, to suicidally submit itself to a potential new one. So you’re talking about Palestinians in this scenario right? E: more seriously this is fundamentally identical to arguments supporting South African apartheid fool of sound fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Dec 15, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 18:10
|
|
|
Autism Sneaks posted:Ah, I see we're back to the old chestnuts of "the Romans enslaved or dispersed most of the Jews thousands of years ago, they're just taking back what's theirs" and "the Palestinians are an invented people". We get it, you're well-indoctrinated, Nameless_Steve. Sicarii did nothing wrong. Kill all togas.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 18:44
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:Hamas is a genocidal organization and whatever population that believe in its brainwashing and dogma cannot possibly coexist in a one state solution. You believe that antisemitism decreases over time, as though antisemitism has not flared up time and time again across the world, becoming uglier and uglier each time, and as though complacency has not been a major factor in Antisemitism's rebirth. Over 50% of the population in the Occupied Territories voted for Hamas, for this genocidal loving madness, and you're dismissive of its significance? Why don't you apply this same sort of criticism to Israel? I mean, they've actually succeeded in killing a hell of a lot more civilians than any Palestinian organizations. At the end of the day, your argument seems to entirely boil down to the "tiger by the tail" thing other posters have mentioned, and relies entirely upon the racist assumption that Palestinians will inevitably execute bloodthirsty genocide if allowed any sort of freedom and autonomy. Also, younger American Jews aren't nearly as dogmatically supportive of Israel as you are. Most of the other Jews I know are just sort of ambivalent on the topic (and I'm obviously strongly opposed to Israel's actions).
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 18:53
|
|
|
fool_of_sound posted:So you’re talking about Palestinians in this scenario right? South African Apartheid was founded on imaginary threats. I just outlined a shitload of very real ones. European Whites regularly steal minorities' narratives of persecution to justify their own. You may as well say that White Lives Matter proves that Black Lives Matter is a supremacist organization, and you'd be every bit as wrong. South African Apartheid was also founded on the preservation of an imaginary culture. The Boers were the most invented people of all time. FreshlyShaven posted:First, apologetics for ethnic cleansing, now the romanticization of Irgun, a bunch of bloodthirsty terrorists. Here's a list of Irgun attacks. Bombing marketplaces, cinemas and cafes, gunning down Palestinian civilians on the way to work or to pray, massacring Deir-Yassin like something straight out of the Eastern Front of WWII. Certainly sounds "heroic" and "noble." How can you get more noble than throwing bombs into crowded marketplaces to kill as many Arabs as possible? What is more heroic than bragging about massacring entire villages and threatening that any Arab they find still in Palestine will meet the same fate? I only "romanticized" the campaign against the British, I stated as such specifically, and alluded to the civilian evacuation courtesy calls. Irgun's campaign against Arab civilians, conversely, was straight-up terrorism and featured no such courtesy calls. (BTW, a one state solution seems like a great way to create bloody street battles between Hamas and a neo-Irgun, which I guarantee would reassemble and massacre more Arabs.) Of all the people romanticizing terrorism in this thread, I'm the one who has done it the least. See the chucklehead caping for Hamas a little ways up, or any one of the people who have said that anti-Jewish violence like the Nabi Musa Riots and Hebron Massacre was the Jews' fault.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 19:06
|
|
|
Ytlaya posted:Why don't you apply this same sort of criticism to Israel? I mean, they've actually succeeded in killing a hell of a lot more civilians than any Palestinian organizations. quote:At the end of the day, your argument seems to entirely boil down to the "tiger by the tail" thing other posters have mentioned, and relies entirely upon the racist assumption that Palestinians will inevitably execute bloodthirsty genocide if allowed any sort of freedom and autonomy. quote:Also, younger American Jews aren't nearly as dogmatically supportive of Israel as you are. Most of the other Jews I know are just sort of ambivalent on the topic (and I'm obviously strongly opposed to Israel's actions). Freshly Shaven posted:Except that no Israeli offer has ever included an actual Palestinian state with control over its own borders, its airspace and its foreign affairs nor is it conceivable that the current Oslo paradigm will ever produce such an offer (at least without the threat of international sanctions against Israel). Even the so-called "dove camp" is unwilling to sacrifice the Jordan Valley, much less East Jerusalem and the surrounding settlements; allowing an actual Palestinian state was never on the table. That's where you're wrong, my dude. Ehud Olmert 2008 offer
Everything on the Palestinian wishlist, a highball offer, which Abbas turned down, nominally because he didn't get enough time to look at the nitty-gritty of the land swaps. Because that's what you do when your people are suffering under Apartheid: you turn down peace offer after peace offer until you get a perfect deal that meets your every desire. /s. It's like someone starving to death turning down food because it's a little dirty. The reality is that the internal corruption of the PLO depends on the siphoning of aid money, and the internal economy is too dependent on the Martyrs' Fund, combined with other facts on the ground that haven't changed, for Abbas to ever accept a peace offer in bilateral negotiations. The goalposts will always move. Plus, any Palestinian leader who agrees to a two state solution will be assassinated like Sadat or Rabin or Arafat. This is why peace will only come through the end of Likud rule and a leftist-zionist-sponsored unilateral 2SS, not through bilateral negotiations. Israel will draw the borders, probably keep East Jerusalem, and take a bite from the 1967 lines to absorb some settlements; if the Palestinians don't like it, they can either make the most of it or start another war and see how well that ends for them. Anyone who's Pro-Palestinian would be well-advised to urge them to accept peace while they can and not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. The Palestinian state will likely have a 20% Jewish minority, to match Israel's 20% Palestinian minority. This levity will be a good way to keep each other accountable for the rights and safety of each other's citizens. I support repatriation for the Palestinian refugees that Israel can handle, with no family history of terrorism, and recompensation for the rest. That's a realist solution. Keep boycotting Sabra Hummus and yelling colonialism and apartheid, though.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 19:53
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:No, actually, it is very, very human to be antisemitic. Most humans throughout history have been. That's the root of this entire problem in like 20 different ways. Nameless_Steve posted:You believe that antisemitism decreases over time, as though antisemitism has not flared up time and time again across the world, becoming uglier and uglier each time, and as though complacency has not been a major factor in Antisemitism's rebirth. Nameless_Steve posted:I'm opposing anti-Zionism and the one-state solution, and I think that the end of Jewish autonomy inevitably results in genocide. I don't trust America to be this philosemitic paradise forever, either––Poland was once the same way––and we can't ever again take any risks that no port will open to us if things go south in a diaspora country. There are people more capable than I am of addressing most of what you've said, but I just wanted to chime in to say that I find it profoundly sad that you've apparently been convinced that antisemitism is some inevitable, intractable problem inherent to humanity rather than simply another permutation of bigotry that happens to have benefited from historical happenstance. I can't help but feel like this is the root of most of your arguments, disingenuous though they might be. And of course the saddest part is that whether you realize it or not, the things you are advocating are more likely to fuel antisemitism than fight it - not because it's rational to blame Jews as a whole for Israel's crimes, but because insisting that Israel represents all Jews while carrying out ethnic cleansing is sadly and unsurprisingly going to result in some people blaming Jews as a whole for it. Nameless_Steve posted:For the same reasons, I support Kurdish independence, Tibetan independence, the Republic of Lakotah, and, yes, the creation of a Palestinian state. Where should the Roma homeland be, and will it be necessarily to ethnically cleanse the land of its previous inhabitants beforehand? Viscardus fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Dec 15, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 20:24
|
|
|
Viscardus posted:There are people more capable than I am of addressing most of what you've said, but I just wanted to chime in to say that I find it profoundly sad that you've apparently been convinced that antisemitism is some inevitable, intractable problem inherent to humanity rather than simply another permutation of bigotry that happens to have benefited from historical happenstance. I can't help but feel like this is the root of most of your arguments, disingenuous though they might be. The main issue with that viewpoint is that it is, in itself, extremely antisemitic.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 20:45
|
|
|
While Israel Trots out it's women to promote colonialism and apartheid racism, let's have a look at an actually brave and strong female role model:- http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2017/08/palestinian-supermom-170815125403131.html also lol this Israeli oval office got blasted when she tried to arrest a little girl, the woman who rescued that girl is a hero:- https://twitter.com/mobeid/status/941379804611391488 Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Dec 15, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 20:56
|
|
|
Viscardus posted:There are people more capable than I am of addressing most of what you've said, but I just wanted to chime in to say that I find it profoundly sad that you've apparently been convinced that antisemitism is some inevitable, intractable problem inherent to humanity rather than simply another permutation of bigotry that happens to have benefited from historical happenstance. Antisemitism traces back to ancient Egypt and has been called "the Oldest Hatred." The first recorded antisemitic propaganda was written by the Egyptian scholar Manetho. What makes antisemitism unique? It might have something to do with the two largest religions in the world having a bunch of bad things to say about us in their texts, or the amount of antisemitic propaganda that's still floating around thanks to European cultural imperialism. Seriously, have you been on the internet? quote:I can't help but feel like this is the root of most of your arguments, disingenuous though they might be. And of course the saddest part is that whether you realize it or not, the things you are advocating are more likely to fuel antisemitism than fight it - not because it's rational to blame Jews as a whole for Israel's crimes, but because insisting that Israel represents all Jews while carrying out ethnic cleansing is sadly and unsurprisingly going to result in some people blaming Jews as a whole for it. Thanks for the heaping dose of respectability politics, friendo. Being "one of the good Jews" has never been a viable long-term strategy for us. There's no good excuse for antisemitism, anyway. You're reminding me of conservatives who think that the "discrimination" of affirmative action is going to result in white people hating black people. quote:Where should the Roma homeland be, and will it be necessarily to ethnically cleanse the land of its previous inhabitants beforehand?
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 21:39
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:Thanks for the heaping dose of respectability politics, friendo. saying ethnic cleansing in the name of Israel is bad is now respectability politics, you heard it here first folks
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 22:39
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:I don't trust America to be this philosemitic paradise forever, either––Poland was once the same way––and we can't ever again take any risks that no port will open to us if things go south in a diaspora country. If America decides to go genocidal against Jews, I'm pretty sure diaspora Jews are going to be a lot better off than Israeli Jews are. If Trump decides to start a second Holocaust, I'm going to Germany, not Israel. Your description of Olmert's peace offer is dishonest, deliberately misleading, and intentionally uses provocative racist terminology to describe "withdrawing from illegally-occupied land". In particular, it didn't include a full withdrawal from the West Bank, it did include the annexation of a number of settlements, it didn't provide for complete control over the borders, and it heavily limited the right of return. But what's even more important than you outright lying about the content of the deal is the fact that you omitted the context: at the time, Olmert was a lame duck who was under investigation, had already announced his imminent resignation, and was mere months away from handing control of the government over to Likud. Maybe you're unaware, but this isn't the forum for posting blatant propaganda. If you're just going to spout easily-disproven lies in hopes of deluding the uninformed, maybe take it to GBS or something? I don't want to just hurl accusations of bad-faith posting willy-nilly, but you posted a link and then straight-up lied about what the linked page said. I can't interpret that as anything other than hoping that we're all too stupid and gullible to click links or verify sources. Not to mention that you posted videos from outright propaganda outlets like MEMRI.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 22:43
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:How loving stupid do you have to be to be saying this in 2017? On the internet, of all places? I'm not sure whether you're willfully misrepresenting what I said or you just misread it incredibly badly, because you appear to have missed the point completely. I didn't say that antisemitism isn't a problem or that it doesn't have a long history; I said that it is not inevitable or intractable. Your explanation of why antisemitism is "unique" doesn't actually make a case for uniqueness, just prominence. And it certainly doesn't explain why you think it's impossible to overcome. I realize I'm not actually going to convince you of anything here; I'm mostly just commenting on the fact that it seems to me to be a deeply sad thing to believe that you are doomed to be eternally hated just because of your ethnicity/culture/religion. It's a supremely dark view of humanity that I can't imagine holding, personally. Nameless_Steve posted:Thanks for the heaping dose of respectability politics, friendo. Again, I think you've badly misunderstood me, and made a rather ridiculous comparison on top of it. I'm not saying to be "one of the good Jews", I'm saying that Israeli policy fosters antisemitism by equating the Israeli government with Jews as a whole (who they do not represent) while committing atrocities. It doesn't mean that those who are influenced toward antisemitism as a result are any less wrong, of course, but it does mean that the people influencing them bear some responsibility. Of course, that's not the main reason to oppose Israel committing atrocities, but it still matters. Nameless_Steve posted:Israel, basically. Jews and Roma/Sinti are tight. Do you know any Roma/Sinti statehood advocates? First I've ever heard of it. So why don't they get their own state? Because they haven't asked for it? If enough of them want a strictly Roma state in a place that's already occupied by non-Roma should they be allowed to forcibly remove the people already there? I'm just curious because the other states you made comparisons to involve people who, you know, already live there.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 22:55
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/YousefMunayyer/status/941743091337322497
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 22:57
|
|
|
quote:A Palestinian who stabbed an Israeli Border Police officer in the upper torso before being shot, died on Friday evening, the Palestinian Authority health ministry said, naming him as Mohammed Aqal, 29. Knifeman dead, knifedman lives! In second intifada, Israel had 5-1 K/D ratio. If they can improve on this, it will be a sign they are winning in the long term. 
Preen Dog fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Dec 15, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2017 23:09
|
|
video in article)
|
"Never again, unless we do it" is kind of a bad slogan.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2017 01:00
|
|
|
The IDF's explanation for this pretty much openly admits to using live ammo against protesters who posed no particular threat to soldiers, BTW. The IDF's statement says that soldiers "fired selectively towards main instigators", without even trying to suggest that those "main instigators" were armed, violent, or posing any kind of threat. It's the IDF's favorite protest-breaking tactic over the last couple of years: "selectively" fire into crowds with live ammo in hopes of killing enough "instigators" that the crowd disperses in fear.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2017 01:53
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:If America decides to go genocidal against Jews, I'm pretty sure diaspora Jews are going to be a lot better off than Israeli Jews are. If Trump decides to start a second Holocaust, I'm going to Germany, not Israel. Since when have antizionists cared about unfair labels? You're being so apartheid right now. quote:In particular, it didn't include a full withdrawal from the West Bank, it did include the annexation of a number of settlements, it didn't provide for complete control over the borders, and it heavily limited the right of return. Debatable; maybe I should have said 95% withdrawal; I didn't say complete control; and ...really? Why let the perfect be the enemy of the good? Any 2ss, if it succeeds and results in years of peace, will feature increased right of return in the long run. All it takes is enough peace to cast doubt on security concerns. This is the most generous offer ever given to a subjugated people, especially one so thoroughly, justly and repeatedly defeated, and there was no good reason to turn it down. To hear you describe it, Palestinians are beggars, yet you also insist they also must be allowed to be choosers. quote:But what's even more important than you outright lying about the content of the deal is the fact that you omitted the context: at the time, Olmert was a lame duck who was under investigation, had already announced his imminent resignation, and was mere months away from handing control of the government over to Likud. quote:Maybe you're unaware, but this isn't the forum for posting blatant propaganda.  that's hilarious, are you reading the same thread I am?quote:If you're just going to spout easily-disproven lies in hopes of deluding the uninformed, maybe take it to GBS or something? I don't want to just hurl accusations of bad-faith posting willy-nilly, but you posted a link and then straight-up lied about what the linked page said. I can't interpret that as anything other than hoping that we're all too stupid and gullible to click links or verify sources. Not to mention that you posted videos from outright propaganda outlets like MEMRI. MEMRI isn't propaganda, it just translates notable content. Good and accurate translations, too. It could be seen as cherry picking if you use it incorrectly, as though the collection of clips is a representative microcosm of what's going on on Arabic language television, but that's not how it's intended to be used and it's not how I used it. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2017 02:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 16:39 |
|
|
The Jewish claim to this place is that we killed all the previous owners that one time. Really surprising we'd go for it again?
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2017 02:39
|
|
