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Jeb! Repetition posted:Incredibly good decision to replace the guy who made the best Star Wars in 30 years with a hack I even like the "Jedi are dumb, things are morally grey, kill your idols" stance the middle of the movie takes, but then it shits all over itself by having the end be a giant face-off with Luke against everything and he wins because he's Luke loving Skywalker and he's just that awesome and the Jedi are the best and now the Rebels will totally win even though there are like 12 people in a 50 year old ship. Also, the 18 hour chase is the dumbest loving thing
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Dec 16, 2017 01:24
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Jeb! Repetition posted:Luke and Kylo are both right about wanting to burn everything down (literally or metaphorically) even though the latter's presented as evil and the former as stubbornly misguided Like when you say burn everything down, do you mean "start over from first principles and do it right" or do you mean "destroy anything gently caress it man I'm angry"
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Dec 16, 2017 01:24
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Nessus posted:How so? Both 
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Dec 16, 2017 01:26
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If Kylo had stopped about one sentence short in his pitch to Rey (the sentence about them ruling together) then he would've been absolutely right. As he actually said it, he was just trying to become another Snoke (emphasized by Hux calling him Supreme Leader ten minutes later) and thus, betraying his own idea about getting rid of the Empire. A shame. I was really hoping Kylo and Rey just decided to do their own thing.
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Dec 16, 2017 01:26
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This director didn't seem to care about anything but subverting expectations repeatedly, at the expense of good plotting and story beats that aren't dumb. Like Rose's plan to save Finn is to crash her high speed ship into his, a move that till now has consistently ended in death. It's a dumb plan that happens for a dumb reason to subvert the expectation that Finn is going to sacrifice himself, an expectation that didn't exist until the director set it up.
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Dec 16, 2017 01:27
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VJeff posted:If Kylo had stopped about one sentence short in his pitch to Rey (the sentence about them ruling together) then he would've been absolutely right. As he actually said it, he was just trying to become another Snoke (emphasized by Hux calling him Supreme Leader ten minutes later) and thus, betraying his own idea about getting rid of the Empire. If they did, and it turned out episode 8 was the last movie and everything about episode IX was an ARG, it would have been the greatest twist in movie history
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Dec 16, 2017 01:28
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Mr. Flunchy posted:Let it go dude, she's a nobody. It's much cooler this way. She'll be whatever tests well and we'll all argue about it when the most effective retroactive storyline is deployed in the next massive profit grab disguised as a merchandising commercial. There is no active plot just a stitched together set of statistically effective scenes.
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Dec 16, 2017 01:28
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Jeb! Repetition posted:Luke and Kylo are both right about wanting to burn everything down (literally or metaphorically) even though the latter's presented as evil and the former as stubbornly misguided I especially like how Yoda dispenses Very Serious Wisdom in Luke's moment of crisis, but then they sneak the ancient texts out anyway and he's just gotta be chatting with Ghost Luke and being like "Lol, you thought I was serious"
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Dec 16, 2017 01:28
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Jesus, I hated this loving movie. In no particular order: -Why did Luke pull an illusion bamboozle if he was going to die immediately afterwards anyway, why not just do his masturbatory Obi-Wan callback properly and go to the place and get stabbed? -Why did everything on the Evil Capitalist planet even happen, that entire segment was just numbing filler. -Why would you dig up Yoda's musty old corpse from the grave to dispense some wisdom about how material objects don't matter, have him burn the books down, only to show us later that, no, the books were actually saved? Whoops, turns out material objects actually matter? What the gently caress is the takeaway here? -If Finn and Whatsherface can just leave the rebel fleet while it's being chased by Imperials, how is being chased by Imperials a scary situation? -That loving chicken thing?
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Dec 16, 2017 01:35
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Unoriginal Name posted:I especially like how Yoda dispenses Very Serious Wisdom in Luke's moment of crisis, but then they sneak the ancient texts out anyway and he's just gotta be chatting with Ghost Luke and being like "Lol, you thought I was serious" I like how the true sign of a Jedi master has become capacity for epic trolling.
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Dec 16, 2017 01:35
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TildeATH posted:She'll be whatever tests well and we'll all argue about it when the most effective retroactive storyline is deployed in the next massive profit grab disguised as a merchandising commercial. There is no active plot just a stitched together set of statistically effective scenes. Nothing gets past this guy.
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Dec 16, 2017 01:37
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Unoriginal Name posted:I especially like how Yoda dispenses Very Serious Wisdom in Luke's moment of crisis, but then they sneak the ancient texts out anyway and he's just gotta be chatting with Ghost Luke and being like "Lol, you thought I was serious" The fact that they saved the texts pissed me off more than anything else in the movie. I didn't even believe those were really them until someone convinced me afterwards BardoTheConsumer posted:I like how the true sign of a Jedi master has become capacity for epic trolling. Lol
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Dec 16, 2017 01:39
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Jeb! Repetition posted:The fact that they saved the texts pissed me off more than anything else in the movie. I didn't even believe those were really them until someone convinced me afterward It ruins so much of the scene with Yoda and Luke. Still can't get over the arguments that boil down to 'I like TLJ because other people don't like it. Also, subversion.'
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Dec 16, 2017 01:47
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Milky Moor posted:It ruins so much of the scene with Yoda and Luke. That the film appears to infuriate Star Wars nerds is more of a bonus tbh.
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Dec 16, 2017 01:51
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Milky Moor posted:It ruins so much of the scene with Yoda and Luke. It wasnt good because it was subversive. It wasn't good because it was 'cynical' or 'edgy' or any of those buzzwords. It was good because it's subversiveness and cynicism served a purpose. Sometimes, heroes fail. Sometimes they don't turn out to be what you expected. Heroes are only human, and they are capable of screwing up. Not just in ways that make the plot drag on, but in ways that cost lives and destroy the things they're trying to build. The movie is about accepting that, and that Heroes are important regardless.
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Dec 16, 2017 01:52
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BardoTheConsumer posted:It wasnt good because it was subversive. It wasn't good because it was 'cynical' or 'edgy' or any of those buzzwords. It was good because it's subversiveness and cynicism served a purpose. Except Luke Skywalker who can stand against the combined forces of the New Order and literally save everyone by himself e: Sorry, Rey can also save everyone by lifting rocks, which is derided earlier in the very same movie
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Dec 16, 2017 01:54
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Unoriginal Name posted:Except Luke Skywalker who can stand against the combined forces of the New Order and literally save everyone by himself No. Luke Skywalker who can sacrifice himself to trick what is essentially a raging child for the few minutes his people need. And also note how "everyone" can now fit on the Falcon. Edit: Oh, and also, you apparently willfully missed the part where I finished that with "heroes are important regardless." Which is why you pointed out the instance of heroism working as if it deflated my argument.
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Dec 16, 2017 01:56
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Also I like how it's a laugh line that Rey's idea of the force is so sophomoric that she thinks it means you can lift things and then at the end she saves the day by... lifting things
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Dec 16, 2017 01:56
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Despera posted:This According to TLJ, someone with a lot of monies.
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Dec 16, 2017 02:00
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The film flirts with an anti-reactionary egalitarian message before ultimately deciding that the Jedi Order should be recreated, that Luke will be a legend, not by training a new order of psychic enforcers that live apart and above an ultimately corrupt, ineffectual Republic but by inspiring the oppressed with a sanitized message about his martial prowess and bravery. The ultimate goal of the Resistance is still the restoration of the Republic, a political system which by its very nature turns a blind eye to injustice in the galaxy, and fundamentally can't deal with the fascists, the arms dealers, the megacorporations, and slavers.
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Dec 16, 2017 02:06
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Waffles Inc. posted:Guy: we believe FN may have helped in the escape Ey yo, my dude, I watched TFA last night an hour before The Last Jedi so it's very fresh in my mind. Kylo Ren is looking for the map to Luke Skywalker. It's in BB8 who is on Jakku. Poe and Finn escape and crash to look for it. Kylo Ren knows where BB8 is. So when he sends his troops down, they fail, because Finn has met up with Rey and they take the Falcon, and BB8 out of Jakku. I'm explaining this because this is the only reason Kylo Ren flips his poo poo. He doesn't do it because he can sense Rey, or he knows Rey. He's doing this because he got beaten. He asks "What girl" because he literally has no idea who this person is, and why they took the droid away from him. Or he hates that he got bested by a girl. Which ever one works for you is fair. As for Han, connects with Rey pretty fast when she's able to fly the Falcon, and knows her way around. Han is pretty lonely and does feel completely awful about ruining his Son. He sees something in Rey, and wants to help her out, but ya know, Han Solo is a pretty stubborn guy so he has a hard time saying it out right. It's not the greatest thing, and it moves too fast. But it's not out of character for a broken Han Solo to have a heart. And as for Maz, and the lightsaber, someone pointed it out but there's only ONE Jedi left, and he's Luke Skywalker. And his lightsaber is calling to Rey because Rey needs to go to him. She gives it to Luke, and that sets off the chain of events in The Last Jedi. And also, Kylo Ren has no idea Rey has any force powers until he starts mind probing her, and she probes back. So like, yeah. No one knows who she is, other than she's very special.
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Dec 16, 2017 02:07
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BardoTheConsumer posted:No. Luke Skywalker who can sacrifice himself to trick what is essentially a raging child for the few minutes his people need. If your point is ultimately, Heroes Are Important, can you understand why spending the majority of the movie laughing at that idea and proving why it's wrong makes for a muddled message? "The Jedi are stupid and led to the Empire. Luke Skywalker, the greatest of Jedi has cut himself off from the Force because of their errors in the past. It is an endless cycle and it needs to stop ....p.s. refound the Jedi"
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Dec 16, 2017 02:08
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Mr. Flunchy posted:Nothing gets past this guy. Come on dude you're going to let billions of dollars rest on someone's gut instincts? No, you're going to test the hell out of it and go with whatever gives back the best results.
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Dec 16, 2017 02:08
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Man, this movie cut real deep on some real modern anxieties. I’ve seen people talking about how the villains felt lame and unthreatening, but I’d say they tapped into a very particular horror. The new trilogy has been a story of malicious, mercurial children gifted, through no effort of their own, with so much power that their actual competence is utterly irrelevant, and of a system where the greatest profit to be found for the actual smart people is in indulging their limitless appetite for vengeance and sadism until there are no smart people any more, just overprivileged sybarites immersed in an economy of suffering. Kylo is a socially-stunted twentysomething who throws tantrums with enough weaponry to leave fuckin’ mushroom clouds. Snoke is this little, ancient gremlin who likes to pretend he’s some towering colossus while lounging around in a gold lamé bathrobe and playing dumb pranks on his prisoners, and he gets away with it because he’s able to control reality within his line of sight and break your brain from half a galaxy away. Hux is a pathetic loser with awful hair who would almost be lovable if he hadn’t already committed the biggest, most monstrous single act of genocide in any Star Wars film to date. There isn’t some grand, cunning mastermind with an elaborate plan like Palpatine here - the true horror is that the world is now so broken that any overprivileged fuckwit can just walk in and take charge, and the great and the good will welcome them because so much of the pre-existing system is built on people being evil little shits, to the point where even righteous outrage and resistance is commodified (I really can’t help but wonder whether the resort for the executives running the forever war was consciously meant to look quite so much like Disneyland). This, of course, is a worldview antithetical to any sort of Great Man theory - the problem is systemic, and at least partially based in putting too much power in the hands of any single, fallible human. That’s why a systemic response is required - fixing the universe takes more than one lifetime and more than one person, so any victory is worth it if you help and inspire someone, and no victory is worth it if you lose more people than you might reasonably have saved. Rose, Finn, and Poe’s dumbass ‘three people save a fleet’ plan failed, but they showed the galaxy that the machine could bleed when they destroyed that casino, and inspired a whole generation who would have otherwise have grown up without hope. Finn’s Death Star run would have resulted in one more cool but meaningless death (they showed his speeder’s guns melting for a reason), and Rose saving him meant that one more talented fighter got to live, even if it meant he would be humiliated. Every truly heroic sacrifice in the film - the admiral, the hospital ship captain - came after they had made every effort to minimise the risk and save as many people as possible. Heroes are important, but only insofar as they create and preserve more heroes. You beat the bad guys by shrinking them into relative irrelevance, and for that, you need numbers. Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Dec 16, 2017 |
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Dec 16, 2017 02:11
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s.i.r.e. posted:They should have just made it so she didn't care who her parents were because it literally does not matter, but no, we get a dumbshit character that can't stop crying about her stupid parents that didn't care about her and she's holding out that they'll return to her lovely slave planet after two god drat decades. And the whole "payoff" is, hey, your parents weren't poo poo. The films spend too much time with this stuff reinforcing her dumb "I want my mommy and daddy!" plight. gently caress off with this.  tell us more about how you hate that a woman is the lead role in Star Wars
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Dec 16, 2017 02:12
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If there's anyone arguing that the movie's themes aren't muddled, probably by decisions Disney forced, let them step forward
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Dec 16, 2017 02:14
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Unoriginal Name posted:If your point is ultimately, Heroes Are Important, can you understand why spending the majority of the movie laughing at that idea and proving why it's wrong makes for a muddled message? Heroes are fallable and setting out to try to be one is bad, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have them. You understand luke was only half right (according to the Movie itself) right? "The Jedi are stupid and led to the Empire. Luke was stupid and led to whiny space Hitler. Make better Jedi. Or different Jedi. Not the same ones. It won't work."
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Dec 16, 2017 02:14
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The meta-twist that the mysteries are irrelevant is just an admission that there never could be an interesting answer. The answers fans (and CNN for some reason) were offering showed this pretty well: the answer to Rey's parentage could only ever be banal, and Snoke could only ever be a nobody because there's no way he was Mace Windu or Darth Plagueis. This is why the praise for the meta-twist rings so hollow - once you admit that there is no mystery, you've killed the (pseudo-)romance in Star Wars, and all you have is even more banal space adventure. An actual twist would require upending some basic, fundamental truth of the story. Darth Vader being Luke's heroic father completely tore the premise apart, because it was no longer clear who was good and who was evil. "[Character from previous movies] dies" in itself is not a twist - now Rey dying in the middle of the movie would be. Another real twist would be, for example, the Resistance turning out to the bad guys that audiences have been gormlessly cheering on, because it would upend the premise of the movies. It would also be a good twist, because it still builds on what's come before: we've never actually been given a reason why the Resistance is supposedly good. They represent Hope, but so did the Obama administration, and that got basically nowhere. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Dec 16, 2017 |
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Dec 16, 2017 02:15
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I loved it when Carrie Fisher turned into a witch and floated herself frozen through space.
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Dec 16, 2017 02:16
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Mr. Flunchy posted:We're dealing with an cosmic intergalactic energy field, who gives a gently caress about the rules? Just have the next script say that Force exclusivity was a lie put about by the galactic elite to keep the poo poo cleaners, moisture farmers, slaves and drug babies in their place. If you don’t care about the God, why are you watching Star Wars movies? They are all explicitly sci-fi films about people trying to understand what God is. But the Lucas films already answered that: God is dead. Vader was the incarnation of God, and he died for sins. The Light Side is the Holy Spirit, which is the community of believers in Vader. The ‘rules’ are important because they say Luke, Yoda and Rey have gotten things wrong. They did not understand Vader’s sacrifice. If Luke had understood, he would not he moping on this island by himself after the failure of his X-Men school. He wouldn’t have even bothered with a school, because he’d be leading droid uprisings, fighting for an end to slavery in the outer rim, etc.
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Dec 16, 2017 02:17
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Tree Dude posted:Yeah that totally happened. I thought it was a nice little thing to go out on though I thought it was shot a little weird. I heard someone describe that scene as looking as if it were from a commercial and that sounded right. It really did, down to the cheap plastic looking junior Rebellion decoder ring that is 100% on sale somewhere
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Dec 16, 2017 02:17
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Ben Nerevarine posted:Sure, right up until the wettest fart of a kiss in cinematic history. Rose didn't know he was gay until she kissed him.
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Dec 16, 2017 02:21
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akadajet posted:Rose didn't know he was gay until she kissed him. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVR-BPdStxE&hd=1&t=41s
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Dec 16, 2017 02:22
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akadajet posted:I loved it when Carrie Fisher turned into a witch and floated herself frozen through space. Why did they keep the dead woman alive and kill everybody else?! Akbar NOOOOOOOOooooOOO
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Dec 16, 2017 02:23
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Darth Walrus posted:Man, this movie cut real deep on some real modern anxieties. I’ve seen people talking about how the villains felt lame and unthreatening, but I’d say they tapped into a very particular horror. The new trilogy has been a story of malicious, mercurial children gifted, through no effort of their own, with so much power that their actual competence is utterly irrelevant, and of a system where the greatest profit to be found for the actual smart people is in indulging their limitless appetite for vengeance and sadism until there are no smart people any more, just overprivileged sybarites immersed in an economy of suffering. This is 100% why I loved this movie, despite its obvious flaws, put in a much better manner than I have been able to articulate. It just subverts the image and idea of one hero coming to save the day so hard.
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Dec 16, 2017 02:24
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The obvious problem wiith that is that there are no heroes who inspire hope (for what?) in these movies. There are only bad guys, some of whom offer false democracy and some of whom offer authoritarianism.
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Dec 16, 2017 02:26
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Darth Walrus posted:Man, this movie cut real deep on some real modern anxieties. I’ve seen people talking about how the villains felt lame and unthreatening, but I’d say they tapped into a very particular horror. The new trilogy has been a story of malicious, mercurial children gifted, through no effort of their own, with so much power that their actual competence is utterly irrelevant, and of a system where the greatest profit to be found for the actual smart people is in indulging their limitless appetite for vengeance and sadism until there are no smart people any more, just overprivileged sybarites immersed in an economy of suffering. This is a good post. I️ still am bugged by Snoke, but everything else I️ agree with
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Dec 16, 2017 02:29
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Beeez posted:Yeah, a series of movies that is so derivative of the originals and tries to play on the fond feelings people have for anything with that branding can't really make a good point about how the past is irrelevant. Also, Rey steals the ancient texts and the Resistance changes it's name to be more like the good guys from the original trilogy. I mean, if episode 9 ends with no implication that Rey is going to found a new school/order of space monks and the First Order isn't completely destroyed or there's some emphasis on the idea that the Republic won't return as such, then fair enough. But it seems more like the only reason they reset things was so that the new, Disney-created characters could achieve what the original characters achieved, more or less, rather than any true commitment to the theme of war never being over or of progression from old ideas. Star wars. Star wars never changes Despera posted:We learn more about roses backstory than snokes So? Snoke was a dick, better off dead
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Dec 16, 2017 02:30
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:If you don’t care about the God, why are you watching Star Wars movies? Lol Jesus
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Dec 16, 2017 02:30
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:The obvious problem wiith that is that there are no heroes who inspire hope (for what?) in these movies. There are only bad guys, some of whom offer false democracy and some of whom offer authoritarianism. nah the first order are the bad guys and the resistance are the good guys
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Dec 16, 2017 02:33
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