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Milky Moor posted:"It's bad because they're supposed to be bad!" Like, the First Order are founded and commanded by Snoke, a guy who pretty much spends his entire screen time getting his kicks from humiliating those around him. These are the principles the First Order runs on. They are not a cold, calculating and efficient military, they're sadistic bastards who find true victory in breaking their opponent's will and terrifying them. It's entirely in character for them to stretch out the Resistance's torture and desperation as long as possible, forcing them watch as their fleet is slowly destroyed.
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Dec 16, 2017 11:06
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The very start of the film has Snoke slamming Hux around because the Resistance fleet escaped and took out a dreadnaught in the process. The obvious implication is that he wants them dead and dead promptly. Snoke is obviously very unhappy with Hux! The fact that Hux's pleading 'but we have them on a string!' is somehow then turned into 'Well, just wait them out' is weird to say the least.
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Dec 16, 2017 11:07
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I'd have to see it again but doesn't Hux complain about not being able to crush them right away, and to keep firing to remind them "that we're still here." I dunno, seems like a more effective characterization for Hux or whomever to call back the TIEs, say how he wants to watch them squirm. The enjoyment they get out of picking off the support ships is sadistic, yes, but they don't seem to be enjoying the chase. Milky Moor posted:The very start of the film has Snoke slamming Hux around because the Resistance fleet escaped and took out a dreadnaught in the process. The obvious implication is that he wants them dead and dead promptly. Snoke is obviously very unhappy with Hux! I found this moment weird. Thought there'd be some sort of traitor, but it's just a boring tracking device that only one ship is using... KaptainKrunk fucked around with this message at 11:11 on Dec 16, 2017 |
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Dec 16, 2017 11:07
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And anyway, note that when Snoke's out of the picture the First Order tactics immediately change. They try and loving obliterate Luke the second they see him as they're now a tool of Kylo's rage rather than Snoke's sadism. This is called good characterisation.
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Dec 16, 2017 11:09
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KaptainKrunk posted:I'd have to see it again but doesn't Hux complain about not being able to crush them right away, and to keep firing to reminder them "that we're there." Like many of the aspects of that whole plot, literally all that'd be required to fix it is some minor script changes. Make it explicit that Hux wants to cripple the fleet and then stalk it. Like, here's the exchange from that scene. What is the point of all this if we can't blow up three tiny cruisers? Well, they're faster and lighter, sir. They can't lose us, but they can keep at a range where our cannons are ineffective against their shields. Well, keep up the barrage. Let's at least remind them that we're still here. This is absolutely Hux and his friend being "sadists who're getting off at their foes being terrified, unable to escape and crushing their hope" and not him sounding like a child who can't reach his favorite toy. Hux explicitly states a desire to blow them up. Why doesn't he use all the tools at his disposal to do so?
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Dec 16, 2017 11:11
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Hux is a moron who doesn't understand poo poo and is trying to logically contextualise Snoke's emotional tactics that he cannot comprehend. You might find this ironic.
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Dec 16, 2017 11:14
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Mr. Flunchy posted:And anyway, note that when Snoke's out of the picture the First Order tactics immediately change. They try and loving obliterate Luke the second they see him as they're now a tool of Kylo's rage rather than Snoke's sadism. Uh. Not really? Luke shows up. Ren reacts in fear and rage and orders everyone to fire on Luke and over Hux's wishes. Then Hux countermands it and snarks to Ren. No tactics changed. You are inventing things.
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Dec 16, 2017 11:15
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Milky Moor is complaing about TLJ in three threads and he spoiled the ending of the movie for me.
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Dec 16, 2017 11:16
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Handen posted:gently caress off. That was literally the only thing that made me happy walking out of the theatre was that she loving died because she shouldn't have been a character in the first place and then she loving died. Something about the potency of the edibles I was eating throughout the movie made it incredibly difficult to follow what was going on from pretty much when Leia wakes up in space and reveals she's had rocket thrusters this whole time. OH WAIT NO, THAT WAS JUST HOW loving TERRIBLE THIS MOVIE IS THAT DID THAT Rose was a good character
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Dec 16, 2017 11:17
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It's kind of funny that these films are so explicitly about emotional interactions between people and not about efficient galactic warfare tactics. The film even goes out of its way to poke fun at its one purely logical actor, C3PO, who is told to knock it the gently caress off when he starts to point out a plot hole.
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Dec 16, 2017 11:18
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Mr. Flunchy posted:Like, the First Order are founded and commanded by Snoke, a guy who pretty much spends his entire screen time getting his kicks from humiliating those around him. These are the principles the First Order runs on. They are not a cold, calculating and efficient military, they're sadistic bastards who find true victory in breaking their opponent's will and terrifying them. Mr. Flunchy posted:And anyway, not that when Snoke's out of the picture the First Order tactics immediately change. They try and loving obliterate Luke the second they see him as they're now a tool of Kylo's rage rather than Snoke's sadism. Your definition of good characterisation is that the villains are violent. In truth the Empire and the First Order have always been very callow baddies. Their evil isn't based on ideology or class. There's no real weight or meaning to their actions, they simply commit atrocities to further the cause of.... a centralized state? A counter-example can be found in The Hidden Fortress. The occupying army is harsh and sadistic, but its evil actions are also utterly banal. This serves the story because the real moral conflict is within the heroes, while the good-and-evil struggle of the Sequel Trilogy is completely vapid. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 11:21 on Dec 16, 2017 |
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Dec 16, 2017 11:19
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Without the John Williams score and the childhood nostalgia no one would have thought this was a solid movie, the same can't be said of TFA ergo TFA is much better despite being a soulless husk of a movie. I grew really loving tired of all the obligatory french horns and bassoon all over the loving place. I tried listening for strings anywhere in the third act but it was all loving blaring fortississimo brass and thundering timpani. And for what? Nothing. There was no subtlety to any of the soundtrack and themes weren't edited to match the pacing of the scenes they were hamfistedly barfed up into and oh dear lord what am i doing with my life 
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Dec 16, 2017 11:21
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Your definition of good characterisation is that the villains are violent. In truth the Empire and the First Order have always been very callow baddies. Their evil isn't based on ideology or class. There's no real weight or meaning to their actions, they simply commit atrocities to further the cause of.... a centralized state? If the Empire/First Order were merely violent they'd be terrible villains. The reason they work is because they're obsessed with projecting force to enact cruelty and inspire terrified awe in their opponents. I mean, you get that they're space Nazis right? Were the Nazis 'just' violent? edit: This is why they're obsessed with planet destroying superweapons - not because they're itching to destroy planets, but because of the constant existential terror something like a Death Star causes.
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Dec 16, 2017 11:22
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fridge corn posted:Rose was a good character I really liked Rose after her initial scene, too bad the whole storyline she and Finn (another character I like a lot) were in was such a wet fart and felt so alien to the movie and like wheel spinning. Also they both together with poe are indirectly responsible for several hundreds or thousands of their comrades dying, which sits not well with me to be honest.
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Dec 16, 2017 11:23
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https://twitter.com/churdchamp/status/941758552284192768
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Dec 16, 2017 11:25
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Mr. Flunchy posted:If the Empire/First Order were merely violent they'd be terrible villains. The reason they work is because they're obsessed with projecting force to enact cruelty and inspire terrified awe in their opponents. I mean, you get that they're space Nazis right? Were the Nazis 'just' violent? Again, you're definition of good characterization is that the villains are violent. Both the heroes and villains of Star Wars "project [F]orce," "enact cruelty," and "inspire terrified awe in their opponents" - one side just does it more consciously. On the commentary track of Phantom Menace, George Lucas compares the Jedi fighting the Trade Federation to Godzilla crushing humans. Good characterisation might include some distinct ideology for the villains to represent, but as has been long established, both the heroes and villains of Star Wars are just two sides of the same coin. They both are the Republic, and the Republic is evil, as symbolized by its elected leader revealing his true face as a Satanic monster. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 11:36 on Dec 16, 2017 |
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Dec 16, 2017 11:31
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Mr. Flunchy posted:Loving the griping about why the First Order don't quickly and efficiently take out the Resistance ship with a couple of TIEs and be done with it. They're sadists who're getting off at their foes being terrified, unable to escape and crushing their hope. They're a cat toying with a dying mouse. They're Captain Phasma deciding not to 'just' execute Finn and Rose but to make it excruciatingly painful. Please wipe your fan fiction on the doormat before you come in please.
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Dec 16, 2017 11:37
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Good characterisation might include some distinct ideology for the villains to represent, but as has been long established, both the heroes and villains of Star Wars are just two sides of the same coin. They both are the Republic, and the Republic is evil. I agree entirely with this and TLJ does too by having a handy dandy hologram Powerpoint presentation explaining this. But while fascism and liberalism are both bad, given the choice I'd go for liberalism and work from there.* I also agree that it's a flaw in these movies that they never actually define the ideologies and endgoals of the opposing sides, but you can interpret them from the actions of the various characters so it's just fuzzy rather than ignored. edit: *Funnily enough the new Wolfenstein games properly get into this, contrasting the Nazism with the racist capitalism of the Allies and wondering what the difference is. But I don't know if a Star Wars film is going to go places like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KQLifOQC_g Necrothatcher fucked around with this message at 11:41 on Dec 16, 2017 |
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Dec 16, 2017 11:38
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fridge corn posted:Rose was a good character I also liked Rose, what a funny and excellent intro too. This movie to me felt fast paced, and it's around 2 and a half hours, so to me that's pretty much perfect for a movie handling this much. It's two minutes shorter than Pulp Fiction apparently, maybe that should be the new rule, no movies longer than Pulp Fiction, it's the perfect length for a longer movie. Ok Peter Jackson can go above that but only if he directs a Godzilla movie.
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Dec 16, 2017 11:39
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Mr. Flunchy posted:I also agree that it's a flaw in these movies that they never actually define the ideologies and endgoals of the opposing sides, but you can interpret them from the actions of the various characters so it's just fuzzy rather than ignored. Ah, what good characterization - never defining ideologies or goals of characters.
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Dec 16, 2017 11:40
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This series was originally about good vs. bad, then it became reason and freedom vs. emotion and tyranny. Now it's old vs. new for some reason. It should have stuck with good vs. bad. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 11:49 on Dec 16, 2017 |
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Dec 16, 2017 11:40
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Good ideas, poor execution by the Director. It will be interesting to see Folding Ideas and RLM (if RLM actually will spend the time to do it, and not do a crap job like that did for Rogue One) explain why the movie worked, and why the movie did not work. They could have avoided a lot of plot holes by having the Rebel fleet "run into the forest" of a gas cloud - we can't deploy fighters into the gas, we can't hyperdrive in front of them but we can track them and once they run out of fuel they will be overrun. Then again, the Director kept making self inflicting plot holes that the movie would drive into like that was the point. And not in a good way. This could all be solved if the next Director could explain the plot holes away....but it's JJ. And I doubt he will or even bother too. -edit- Huh, Folding Idea's did already. Comstar fucked around with this message at 11:44 on Dec 16, 2017 |
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Dec 16, 2017 11:42
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Ah, what good characterization - never defining ideologies or goals of characters. Yeah, it's a flaw. I agree with you. You're right.
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Dec 16, 2017 11:42
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All the dialogue from the pilots of the ships on the casino planet during the chase was from the OT somewhere, but I cant remember exactly where. Can someone remind me?
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Dec 16, 2017 11:43
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Mr. Flunchy posted:Yeah, it's a flaw. I agree with you. You're right. So the motiveless sadism is also a flaw?
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Dec 16, 2017 11:48
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KaptainKrunk posted:I found this moment weird. Thought there'd be some sort of traitor, but it's just a boring tracking device that only one ship is using... I want to see the full scene of Hux explaining his cunning strategy to Snoke. "You know those brand new, highly advanced sensors we had installed all our ships to track enemies through hyperspace? Well, bear with me, this is a little technical... I plan to use them to track our enemies!" Decius posted:I really liked Rose after her initial scene, too bad the whole storyline she and Finn (another character I like a lot) were in was such a wet fart and felt so alien to the movie and like wheel spinning. Also they both together with poe are indirectly responsible for several hundreds or thousands of their comrades dying, which sits not well with me to be honest. It's all actually a black comedy. They'll keep screwing up in the next film, and it'll all end with Finn being demoted back down to being a janitor.
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Dec 16, 2017 11:50
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:So the motiveless sadism is also a flaw? No, the fact that the characters are sadistic informs their characterisation, but that characterisation is not limited to this aspect.
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Dec 16, 2017 11:51
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Angry Salami posted:I want to see the full scene of Hux explaining his cunning strategy to Snoke. "But only one of them. We will only use one of the tracking devices -- the one on your ship of course. And we're only going to track one of the four ships. Now, if they happen to destroy your ship Supreme Leader Snoke, we'll just boot up one of the other trackers." It's like the BSG episode where the Cylons are tracking one specific ship in the convoy... just without anything that made the setup interesting.
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Dec 16, 2017 11:54
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Milky Moor posted:"But only one of them. We will only use one of the tracking devices -- the one on your ship of course. And we're only going to track one of the four ships. Now, if they happen to destroy your ship Supreme Leader Snoke, we'll just boot up one of the other trackers." Look dude, I mean you do you and all, but approaching movies like this is a guaranteed way to have a bad time with them. There is more to life than 'Everything Wrong with X' videos.
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Dec 16, 2017 11:57
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Mr. Flunchy posted:No, the fact that the characters are sadistic informs their characterisation, but that characterisation is not limited to this aspect. Without any ideology or comprehensible political stance, their characterisation is in fact limited to sadism.
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Dec 16, 2017 11:58
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Without any ideology or comprehensible political stance, their characterisation is in fact limited to sadism. They're space Nazis. Fascism is their political stance. I've got to split for now to run some errands and there'll no doubt be hundreds of replies by the time I'm done, but PM me if you want to chat more about this. x
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Dec 16, 2017 12:00
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KaptainKrunk posted:I found this moment weird. Thought there'd be some sort of traitor, but it's just a boring tracking device that only one ship is using... Everytime they discussed being tracked over Hyperspace the camera inevitably panned to the little tracking beacon they had for Rey. I assumed that thing was bugged or what was being tracked.
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Dec 16, 2017 12:05
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Mr. Flunchy posted:They're space Nazis. Fascism is their political stance. There's no indication that they're fascist, only generically authoritarian. They dress up similarly to Nazis, but the heroes of Star Wars also get medals in a ceremony recalling Triumph of the Wll. This would make them about as fascist as the villains. Empire Strikes Back revealed the horrible truth that there are no real heroes or villains in the universe.
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Dec 16, 2017 12:06
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This movie was better than all the Marvel movies because I can remember what happened in it and who the characters were and it's possible to have a conversation about it. I always immediately forget what happens in the Marvel movies, it's like I black out for 2 hours when I'm watching them. Also, this movie added a bunch of new ships and stuff for video and board games. Manbaby toys are one of the most important components of a Star War.
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Dec 16, 2017 12:07
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Mr. Flunchy posted:Look dude, I mean you do you and all, but approaching movies like this is a guaranteed way to have a bad time with them. The weird thing is that when a film is made well -- like, say, the OT and big parts of the PT -- all the motivations are consistent and logical and based on characterization. Why doesn't Tarkin deploy fighters? Because he is overconfident, and this is made clear. But Vader, who is smarter and more aware of the danger, still deploys. The Rebels do what they can but, ultimately, are saved because Han has a change of heart. Why does the Hoth battle unfold how it does? Because Admiral Whatshisname makes a gross tactical error (and he is already established to be an idiot). The Rebels must use their more powerful fighters to cover their evacuation while the speeders try to delay as long as they can. Why doesn't the Imperial Fleet at Endor engage the Rebels immediately? Because Palpatine explicitly wants them to remain hemmed in to use them against Luke. Lando has the Rebel fleet dive into the Imperial one to evade the DS2. You imply that TLJ is the same setup as the Battle of Endor (that Snoke wants to keep the Fleet around for... some reason that is never explained or even implicated) but Snoke never seems to care about it or follow up on it or even display any interest in the Fleet beyond the beginning of the film where he's angry that they're not dead. What kind of sadist ignores his victims entirely? That's strange characterization. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 12:15 on Dec 16, 2017 |
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Dec 16, 2017 12:11
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emanresu tnuocca posted:This series was originally about good vs. bad, then it became reason and freedom vs. emotion and tyranny. Now it's old vs. new for some reason. This is a good post. Milky Moor posted:You imply that TLJ is the same setup as the Battle of Endor It is, in that it should be wiped out of your memory because it's loving terrible.
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Dec 16, 2017 12:17
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KaptainKrunk posted:TFA, Rogue One, and TLJ are all bad in different ways, which is probably statistically harder than making okay movies.
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Dec 16, 2017 12:29
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I think Rian might make a decent trilogy. All the bad stuff in TLJ is really just detritus from the setup of TFA.
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Dec 16, 2017 12:34
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Milky Moor posted:I think Rian might make a decent trilogy. All the bad stuff in TLJ is really just detritus from the setup of TFA. I think either he or Abrams would have a good shot at it, but as it stands both have been underwhelming and I really don't know what would intrigue me about the third offering. I also wonder how much say Rian had in making the film, so many scenes smack of directing by committee.
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Dec 16, 2017 12:45
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moolchaba posted:Leia is a stroke victim mushmouthing all her lines (she probably did a couple lines before each take If nothing the film being created just so this post can exist makes it worth it, holy poo poo lol
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Dec 16, 2017 12:52
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).