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Neurolimal posted:he wasn't ready and that wasn't his plan when he first entered the tent; he says as much "that thought entered my mind in an instant....and was immediately replaced with shame." or somesuch. The point was that he failed Ben by not having faith that he could be saved, and although he recovered that faith it was too late, and Ben misunderstood. I'm amazed at how many dumb-fucks don't get this. This same scene is shown from three different points of view with each one adding some detail the last left out. I strolled into the RT viewer reviews and watched some youtube reviews to see what the average non-CineD Star Wars nerds think and almost all of them were saying that "they ruined Luke Skywalker!!"
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Dec 16, 2017 15:58
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Sombrerotron posted:I am mad as hell that Luke didn't lift his old X-Wing from the water and shoot up some fuckers with it. I don't think you get Star Wars.
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Dec 16, 2017 16:01
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Neurolimal posted:presumably projecting like that took its toll on him, seeing as he was an old man persisting on anteater milk and giant pirhanas. It's worth noting though that every force ghost you see in the series ends their life on their own terms, which could be important; Vader chooses to pass away seeing his son eye-to-eye, Kenobi lets Vader strike him down, and Yoda passes away in his sleep. As for why not show in the flesh; he probably figured Ren would try to shoot the poo poo out of him with every cannon. Also, its a big ask for the X-Wing to still be working after ten years of sitting underwater. How else would he get there? SolarFire2 posted:1. Yes. He probably could have kept on, but he decided that his time had come and he had fulfilled his puropse to that point. I'm almost certain he'll be coming back as a force ghost to talk to Rey. At least he better be. gently caress that, I want "see you around kid" to be prophecy and he taunts Kylo Ren from the grave all next movie. Or both. I suppose he could also be the third wheel in their forcetime chats.
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Dec 16, 2017 16:06
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Filthy Casual posted:gently caress that, I want "see you around kid" to be prophecy and he taunts Kylo Ren from the grave all next movie. Or both. I suppose he could also be the third wheel in their forcetime chats. I wonder if Kylo or Rey will figure out how to keep those chats going, given that it was Snoke facilitating them
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Dec 16, 2017 16:07
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jivjov posted:I wonder if Kylo or Rey will figure out how to keep those chats going, given that it was Snoke facilitating them Pretty sure they were still in contact after Snoke was gone but I may be mis-remembering
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Dec 16, 2017 16:11
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yeah right at the end, he tries to see Rey and she closes the door of the ship on him
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Dec 16, 2017 16:14
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UmOk posted:Pretty sure they were still in contact after Snoke was gone but I may be mis-remembering You just know sometime Kylo's gonna pull a chatroulette and have his dong hanging out on purpose when the connection reestablishes.
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Dec 16, 2017 16:19
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UmOk posted:I don't think you get Star Wars.
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Dec 16, 2017 16:22
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Did Luke ever say what lesson three was?
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Dec 16, 2017 16:27
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I can understand why some wouldn't like it and preferred her force presence be passive, but I liked Leia pulling herself back to the ship; it was a nice nod to fan theories of Leia influencing events in ANH without turning her into a wacky force ninja, and plays with your expectations twofold. You expect Leia to die in this episode because Carrie passed away, but also the immediate prior scene showed Ren breaking away with the squadron, suggesting he might be coming to save her/retrieve her corpse.
Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Dec 16, 2017 |
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Dec 16, 2017 16:28
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Sombrerotron posted:I really have to watch it a second time I guess, because I'm struggling to come up with a single moment watching TLJ that I was genuinely emotionally stirred, whereas I had a very different experience seeing TFA. Somehow it all felt forced (ho ho) and insincere to me this time round. Most of the genuinely affecting bits on my end were fueled by nostalgia. Luke and R2's reunion on screen had a profound effect on me, as mentioned with R2 playing back Leia's old message. Also Yoda's return, which came unexpectedly. That threw me for a loop, especially when he starts dropping wisdom bombs.
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Dec 16, 2017 16:32
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UmOk posted:I'm amazed at how many dumb-fucks don't get this. This same scene is shown from three different points of view with each one adding some detail the last left out. I strolled into the RT viewer reviews and watched some youtube reviews to see what the average non-CineD Star Wars nerds think and almost all of them were saying that "they ruined Luke Skywalker!!" See, my problem is that while I get what the film was going for, I don't find it in any way convincing or satisfying. The biggest question between movies was why Luke, that optimistic farmboy turned Jedi, became a bitter old man who hid away from the galaxy-and the film tried to answer it by saying he tried to kill Ben, and felt bitterness and regret over it ever since. But that explanation falls flat in a lot of respects, because it still doesn't address how Luke went from someone who saw goodness in loving Darth Vader to someone who was on the precipice of killing his own nephew. All the film says is that Luke detects that Snoke filled Ben up with 'Darkness', which is as lame of an excuse as there could possibly be. The sad thing is, it wouldn't have been that hard to address this. For just an extra minute or two of screentime (Which you could have easily cut out of almost anywhere else in this bloated film), you could've had Luke describing Ben's training, and perhaps things that drove him to the point of the unthinkable-maybe show Ben torturing an animal with the force, asking uncomfortable questions about power, nearly killing a fellow student, or showcasing his classic anger issues. Hell, you could've even given a line or two of dialogue giving a hint of what the gently caress was up with Snoke, and how he was able to draw Ben into his influence. You could've shown Luke struggling with what to do with Ben, before finally, in a brief second, coming to the idea of committing an unthinkable action. But instead, the film reduces one of the most important events to occur between the OT and the new trilogy to a trio of ten second flashbacks, and just tells the audience to go along with the ride. It's unconvincing and unsatisfying.
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Dec 16, 2017 16:33
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Acebuckeye13 posted:
I think it worked as is although it would have been nice to see more. Luke was the kind of person who looked into Vader and saw light. What happens when that same person, now older and stronger in the ways of the Force--and probably desperate not to make the same mistakes as the old Jedi Order--looks into one of his students and doesn't see that spark of goodness? Luke wavered for only a moment, but a moment was all it took.
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Dec 16, 2017 16:43
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teagone posted:Most of the genuinely affecting bits on my end were fueled by nostalgia. Luke and R2's reunion on screen had a profound effect on me, as mentioned with R2 playing back Leia's old message. Also Yoda's return, which came unexpectedly. That threw me for a loop, especially when he starts dropping wisdom bombs. Anyway, TFA was quite successful at playing on my nostalgia, and even Rogue One managed to stir me with the familiar sights of OT tech (I do miss the old Star Destroyer designs) and Vader's great screen presence, but it didn't really click for me when watching TLJ. Perhaps I've just had my fill of nostalgic reminders, though. Well Manicured Man posted:I think it worked as is although it would have been nice to see more. Luke was the kind of person who looked into Vader and saw light. What happens when that same person, now older and stronger in the ways of the Force--and probably desperate not to make the same mistakes as the old Jedi Order--looks into one of his students and doesn't see that spark of goodness?
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Dec 16, 2017 16:58
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I'm glad that The Last Jedi has given this thread something new to argue about.
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Dec 16, 2017 17:12
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Yeah for being as gung ho as Luke was about saving Vader and then Luke sensing a speck of the dark side in Ben so he considers murdering him was definitely off. They could have taken two minutes of screen time and fleshed that out way better. Bongo Bill posted:I'm glad that The Last Jedi has given this thread something new to argue about. What did you think was gonna happen honestly?
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Dec 16, 2017 17:13
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Sombrerotron posted:That seems a bit weird/unlikely. I mean, in TFA it's explicitly mentioned multiple times that Kylo is in conflict with himself, and is fighting hard against the light inside himself. Then in TLJ, Rey makes it plain that she thinks he can be redeemed. Doesn't seem probable to me, then, that Luke would've only sensed darkness in Ben prior to his fall. I just don't see redemption in the cards for Kylo. Rey thinks Kylo can be redeemed pretty much solely because Kylo and Snoke were pulling a fast one on her. The first Newtype astral projection facilitated communication scene obviously took both of them by surprise but as soon as Kylo figured out what was happening he started to manipulate Rey and turn her. This was part of Snoke's plan to draw her to him and find out Luke's location. As for the light, that could have just been Snoke needling at a major point of anxiety for Kylo in TFA. TLJ makes it explicit that Snoke keeps both Kylo and Hux in line through constant negging.
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Dec 16, 2017 17:13
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Well Manicured Man posted:I just don't see redemption in the cards for Kylo. Rey thinks Kylo can be redeemed pretty much solely because Kylo and Snoke were pulling a fast one on her. The first Newtype astral projection facilitated communication scene obviously took both of them by surprise but as soon as Kylo figured out what was happening he started to manipulate Rey and turn her. This was part of Snoke's plan to draw her to him and find out Luke's location. Also, in TFA when sitting by Vader's mask, Kylo says: "Forgive me. I feel it again... The pull to the light... Supreme Leader senses it. Show me again... The power of the darkness... And I'll let nothing stand in our way... Show me... Grandfather... and I will finish... what you started." It doesn't get much more explicit than that. EDIT: And let's be honest here, even without examining what we've seen in TFA and TLJ, it would not be much of a recommendation for these films if they reduced a character like Ben/Kylo to a two-dimensional monster, would it? Sombrerotron fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Dec 16, 2017 |
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Dec 16, 2017 17:26
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I am genuinely incapable of empathizing in any way with people who didn't like this movie, which owned
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Dec 16, 2017 17:26
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UmOk posted:I don't think you get Star Wars. I was half expecting Rey to lift the X-Wing out of the water as part of her training, but then Luke went all like "the Force isn't just about lifting things" and I was like yeah, that's good poo poo Luke. I like this movie.
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Dec 16, 2017 17:27
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SlipkPIe posted:I am genuinely incapable of empathizing in any way with people who didn't like this movie, which owned Not empty-quoting.
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Dec 16, 2017 17:31
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Field Mousepad posted:Yeah for being as gung ho as Luke was about saving Vader and then Luke sensing a speck of the dark side in Ben so he considers murdering him was definitely off. To be fair, it took three films for Luke to become 100% confident Vader could be saved, and pulling a sabre out when he gets scared by something doesn't necessarily mean "I should kill this sleeping child" is a concrete thought in his head. He's not gung-ho about killing people, but plenty of dead stormtroopers suggest that he's not above defending himself/what he cares about.
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Dec 16, 2017 17:34
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It just occurred to me that the decisive clash between Luke and Ben/Kylo is TLJ's reference to Han shooting/not shooting first in ANH.
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Dec 16, 2017 17:38
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Loved this movie so much. Seeing it for a second time later today. Very glad that none of the fan theories turned out to be true because they were all stupid. It seems like the reason why people are so critical of this film is that they spent two years building up this idea in their head of exactly how they thought the movie would play out. Because it was nothing like that, they instantly hate the Last Jedi.
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Dec 16, 2017 18:42
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That such a bullshit reason and you know it. People have valid criticisms and just because you easy to please doesn’t mean poo poo.
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Dec 16, 2017 18:46
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I said come in! posted:Loved this movie so much. Seeing it for a second time later today. Very glad that none of the fan theories turned out to be true because they were all stupid. It seems like the reason why people are so critical of this film is that they spent two years building up this idea in their head of exactly how they thought the movie would play out. Because it was nothing like that, they instantly hate the Last Jedi. Im ok with it going in just about any direction. I think what some people are upset about is the movie pretty much discards things that were built up in TFA as things that were heading somewhere. These aren't minor things. One of these things (what/who is snoke and what are his goals are) is a pretty fundamental element for why a war is happening in your star wars trilogy. It might actually be a blessing in disguise that JJ is handling IX and can deliver on some of the things he was building on in TFA. Still as things are already, the middle chapter swerves completely off course instead of building off TFA in a logical way and throwing in some suprises/curveballs.
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Dec 16, 2017 18:51
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Bulkiest Toaster posted:One of these things (what/who is snoke and what are his goals are) is a pretty fundamental element for why a war is happening in your star wars trilogy. You mean like how the OT totally explained what\who Palpatine was and what his goals were, other than being Very Evil?
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Dec 16, 2017 18:55
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Nah, giving Snokes motivation would have been completely pointless. His motivation was to end the Jedi once and for all and to train an apprentice, nothing more. This is the story of Kylo Ren and Rey, it was that story from the very start. I completely disagree that this movie veered off course from the Force Awakens.
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Dec 16, 2017 18:56
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Bleck posted:You mean like how the OT totally explained what\who Palpatine was and what his goals were, other than being Very Evil? The Emperor didn't need his background explained because it was irrelevant to the events and characters of the film, and his goals where relevant were clearly explained (Galactic domination through the destruction of the Rebellion and the death or corruption of Luke). As the sequel trilogy is, ostensibly, a sequel to the original trilogy, and Snoke was the singular most important figure in the change of the status quo from the end of VI to the beginning of TFA, it stands to reason there should be a little more daylight on what the gently caress is up with him.
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Dec 16, 2017 19:07
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My interpretation is that Snoke is some guy that found Palpatine's old collection of Sith light novels and seized his opportunity. Anybody at all could've been Supreme Leader of this band of alt-right Imperial revanchists; it's Hux who matters.
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Dec 16, 2017 19:08
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CelticPredator posted:No one respected Kylo Ren. They feared him because he's a crazy person that the supreme leader likes. Hux in no way ever liked or respected him. He just had to put up with him. nobody likes Hux either because he’s a power hungry fool in his position because nepotism.
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Dec 16, 2017 19:14
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I said come in! posted:Nah, giving Snokes motivation would have been completely pointless. His motivation was to end the Jedi once and for all and to train an apprentice, nothing more. This is the story of Kylo Ren and Rey, it was that story from the very start. I completely disagree that this movie veered off course from the Force Awakens. In this way, TFA also set up a new twist on the conflict between the Light and Dark Side. It hinted at Kylo possibly "falling" to the Light again, which could've mirrored Rey falling to the Dark. After all, Rey was shown (and is shown still in TFA) to be very fiery, rather impulsive, and prone to being at her best when angry. I feel all sorts of interesting things could've been done by switching these two characters' roles. Nothing of the sort happens in TLJ, though. That's more a matter of not following through than veering off course, admittedly, but the point stands that TLJ goes its own way, and I'm not sold on the end result. Bongo Bill posted:My interpretation is that Snoke is some guy that found Palpatine's old collection of Sith light novels and seized his opportunity. Anybody at all could've been Supreme Leader of this band of alt-right Imperial revanchists; it's Hux who matters.
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Dec 16, 2017 19:18
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I think the good scenes outweigh the bad and overall it's a decent Star Wars movie but god drat do I miss the more concise and consistent writing of the PT and OT. Everything in those felt more explained and fleshed out. These new one force you to fill in the blanks yourself or just dismiss things as unimportant details. Still, as a lights and effects show TLJ is a a triumph. Derns kamikazee moment was a loving awesome scene. Audible gasps in my theater.
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Dec 16, 2017 19:22
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These new Star Wars movies make a lot more sense when you realize that in the new canon, Return of the Jedi didn't happen. (Except in the extremely literal plot sense that the Emperor and Darth Vader died at some point.)
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Dec 16, 2017 19:23
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Bleck posted:You mean like how the OT totally explained what\who Palpatine was and what his goals were, other than being Very Evil? Well the emperor wasn't defeated in the second part of the trilogy. I do admit you didn't know a ton about the emperor from the movies just he wanted power and to rule. Is Snoke the same? Who knows? I suppose im fine with emperor redux as a means to an end to get a bad guy faction going. But if TLJ was really as original as everyone is saying don't you think they would add a bit more dimension to villain of the trilogy? I guess we still have kylo who is great, but then that brings us back to what the point of snoke was in TFA and TLJ. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 16, 2017 19:27
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Yaws posted:Still, as a lights and effects show TLJ is a a triumph. This I completely agree with.
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Dec 16, 2017 19:28
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Sombrerotron posted:Snoke is awfully adept at the Force, so I'm a little doubtful that he's just some self-taught semi-Sith. And surely you can't be serious about Hux, who's repeatedly mocked, abused, and belittled throughout TLJ. Hux is the essence of the First Order. His ideals are the First Order's ideals, his attitude is the First Order's attitude, and his self-important bluster is the First Order's self-important bluster. He's the face of Empire Fandom and the personification of all the forces that created the First Order. The fact that his enemies don't respect him doesn't make this any less true.
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Dec 16, 2017 19:30
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Vintersorg posted:That such a bullshit reason and you know it. People have valid criticisms and just because you easy to please doesn’t mean poo poo. I'm kind of glad you hate this film because now you can at least understand how I feel about D.C. Movies.
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Dec 16, 2017 19:32
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The space-WW2 naval chase (where Leia space-Jesus'd and purple hair needlessly suicide bombed) was really cool and I'm glad it let them focus on solving income-inequality, war-profiteering, child slavery and animal-rights instead. Luckily they were able to cram the actual movie into 6+ consecutive finale scenes at the very end.
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Dec 16, 2017 19:34
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Bulkiest Toaster posted:Well the emperor wasn't defeated in the second part of the trilogy. I do admit you didn't know a ton about the emperor from the movies just he wanted power and to rule. Is Snoke the same? Who knows? I suppose im fine with emperor redux as a means to an end to get a bad guy faction going. But if TLJ was really as original as everyone is saying don't you think they would add a bit more dimension to villain of the trilogy? I guess we still have kylo who is great, but then that brings us back to what the point of snoke was in TFA and TLJ. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 16, 2017 19:41
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