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Seems a little too well documented imo...
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Dec 15, 2017 12:01
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Data Graham posted:"The Holocaust never happened! Also it would be great if it did!" Got told this pretty much by one of the two Nazis I've had to work with. The other one said more or less that the Holocaust was a mistake albeit with the right intentions. They're still wrong but definitely the lesser of two evils in this instance. E: Also Nazi #1 was a stand-up comedian and MMA trainer on the side. #2 was just a skinhead and I worked with them before the internet was ubiquitous, maybe they're more radicalized by now. You young 'uns have no idea how not normal all this poo poo in this thread was, barely a decade ago. The Sausages fucked around with this message at 12:21 on Dec 15, 2017 |
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Dec 15, 2017 12:13
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The moon landing and 9/11 were both some of the most watched news footage ever in human history and both are some of the richest targets of conspiracy. Being extremely well documented seems like it raises the amount of crazy theories about a thing instead of lowering it.
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Dec 15, 2017 14:11
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I wanna say there's like known studies or something that show that the crazier and more implausible a theory like that is, the more likely it is for certain people to believe it. Like, if it's too mundane or too explicable, it still floats in that part of your brain that says "Well if this were true, then X and Y would have had to happen" and you end up rejecting it due to normal everyday rationales like political belief or personal experience. But if it's something that requires you to throw out basically your entire accumulated worldview and perception of reality, like flatearthism or holocaust denial, it means you're basically believing the Matrix is real. It means you're willing to go along with what your senses tell you only insofar as it's necessary for your survival, but you know that everything you're being fed, whether by the news, or history books, or the ground you walk on, is a lie and a simulation. Once you're in that realm pretty much anything is fair game.
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Dec 15, 2017 14:21
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The Sausages posted:Got told this pretty much by one of the two Nazis I've had to work with. The other one said more or less that the Holocaust was a mistake albeit with the right intentions. They're still wrong but definitely the lesser of two evils in this instance. I'm not so sure I could say "Genocide had the right intentions" can be called a lesser evil in any sense.
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Dec 15, 2017 15:55
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chitoryu12 posted:I'm not so sure I could say "Genocide had the right intentions" can be called a lesser evil in any sense. His take was that the Germans should have deported them rather than genocided them. In any case gently caress anyone and everyone who believes in ethnic cleansing/mass murder to any degree.
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Dec 15, 2017 16:06
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germany itself is a hoax by the space jews, duh
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Dec 15, 2017 16:15
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Data Graham posted:if it's something that requires you to throw out basically your entire accumulated worldview and perception of reality, like flatearthism Flat earth seems interesting because it's the opposite. Like the world is super clearly a flat plane with a domed sky if you walk outside and just look around. The tricks to disprove that standing in one general place are fairly obscure and not something most people would know to look for. So flat earth is unique in being the situation your own personal perception will be wrong and you just have to realize that society has a bigger and better view than you do. Like it's super wrong clearly and easy to disprove in the modern world, but it's unique as a conspiracy because it's the default naive theory a human would have about the world if they didn't know otherwise compared to stuff like "the queen of england is a jewish lizard" that requires adding a specific narrative you have to generally hear from someone else.
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Dec 15, 2017 16:28
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Flat earth seems interesting because it's the opposite. Like the world is super clearly a flat plane with a domed sky if you walk outside and just look around. The tricks to disprove that standing in one general place are fairly obscure and not something most people would know to look for. So flat earth is unique in being the situation your own personal perception will be wrong and you just have to realize that society has a bigger and better view than you do. In that vein, some days I can only marvel at the fact that people actually accept things like "washing hands prevents the spread of disease" and "sex and only sex leads to pregnancy" and "your phone contains billions of tiny electrical signals interacting with networks over radio waves and that's where your cat meme came from". And then I remember that large numbers of people are agitating against vaccinations and poo poo and suddenly the entirety of the human endeavor to educate generation upon generation to inherit the knowledge we've accumulated seems completely futile.
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Dec 15, 2017 16:35
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Data Graham posted:In that vein, some days I can only marvel at the fact that people actually accept things like "washing hands prevents the spread of disease" and "sex and only sex leads to pregnancy" and "your phone contains billions of tiny electrical signals interacting with networks over radio waves and that's where your cat meme came from". I wonder if you could split conspiracies up into two groups like this. Like some are a world view where the version you can verify simply with your untrained eyes must be more real than the received information from grade school and ones where the world is not as it seems and you require being someone that learned the tricks and sees through the veil to see the hidden deeper truth.
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Dec 15, 2017 16:45
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I mean there's the "magical thinking" thing, where you've got people willing to believe in religion and other woo woo versus people who demand scientific rigor... but then there's like a totally oblique other axis between people who refuse to accept anything their own eyes don't tell them, and people who are willing to accept that there's more to the world than they can immediately perceive. It's like, to be a scientist you have to be on the one end of one of those axes, but like the opposite end of the other one. It's kind of self-contradictory, if you want to peg a certain kind of person as being susceptible to conspiracy theories.
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Dec 15, 2017 16:49
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Mr. Sunshine posted:What the gently caress, exactly, are you suggesting happpened to those 6 million jews? crisis actors.
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Dec 15, 2017 18:17
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Some of arguments that were getting paraded out in this particular thread were: - that the 6 million number was fabricated, and it was actually closer to 1.5 million - most of them actually died from disease and general war-stuffs - there was no evidence of gas chambers at Auschwitz (Yes, they actually took the Fred Leuchter report seriously) The funny part was that they kept earnestly asserting the classic "I'm not racist, I'm just asking questions!", and the only people backing up them up were flagrantly white supremacists.
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Dec 15, 2017 18:43
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Was Leuchter the one who made a big stink about not fingering any zyklon b residue in the showers like 50 years later or something?
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Dec 15, 2017 18:54
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I think one of his deals was that there was like 20 times the amount of zyklon B residue in the delousing facility than in the "alleged" gaschamber - completely missing that it takes 20 times the amount of gas to kill lice than to kill humans. E: also completely missing that the presence or absence of gas chambers at Auswich is pretty irrelevant, since Auswich was never an extermination camp. Mr. Sunshine fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Dec 15, 2017 |
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Dec 15, 2017 19:20
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Mr. Sunshine posted:I think one of his deals was that there was like 20 times the amount of zyklon B residue in the delousing facility than in the "alleged" gaschamber - completely missing that it takes 20 times the amount of gas to kill lice than to kill humans. Goddamn, lice are hard core. Besides the obvious racism, I've always attributed holocoust denial to the typical refusal to admit that the world could be as horrible as it actually is.
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Dec 15, 2017 22:03
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I don't think I've ever heard Holocaust denial from anyone who wasn't also pushing the "Hitler had some good ideas" line. I'll give you that on some "no one actually got hurt on 9/11" flavors of truther, maybe, but not with this.
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Dec 15, 2017 23:28
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I think in one of the books written by Michael Shermer, he talked about one denier who started out more oriented around debunking some of the actual untrue rumors about the Holocaust, stuff like human skin lampshades, etc. The thing is, the only people who bought his books or wanted him to come to events were white supremacists, and over time he gradually accommodated to meet the needs of his audience.
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Dec 15, 2017 23:44
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My understanding is that Al Queda made a series of incremental attacks against the US consulates around the world. These grievances were religious in nature: they didn’t want infedel boots on the ground in/on Muslim holy ground. Prior to 9/11, there was a World Trade Center bombing. Signal to noise: bush may have had some idea about the potential of an attack: in game theory terms Al Queda called his bluff of “you won’t do it” I could be wrong Furthermore; the obsession about the CIA is related to “blowback”; the US armed and trained people during the Cold War: communists godless; arm the most fundamental of religious people On mental hospitals: many antipsychotics have an opioid ancestor. Basically, during the red scare, these god damned hippies don’t follow the rules and don’t believe in religion. They hurt resolve. It’s probably why AA has a religious component. Reacting against your parents; the 60’s kids of WWII vets were tired of ptsd dad, the 80’s kids wanted their parents to stop smoking weed and to put on their cloths. It’s going to be interesting to see what Internet babies are going to react against On taking your meds: if the doctor is too scary convert to a religion. Causis Clay did so to protest the Vietnam war. Paraphrasing: “the Vietcong never called me a friend of the family” Lurks Morington fucked around with this message at 10:48 on Dec 16, 2017 |
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Dec 16, 2017 10:33
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Data Graham posted:I mean there's the "magical thinking" thing, where you've got people willing to believe in religion and other woo woo versus people who demand scientific rigor... but then there's like a totally oblique other axis between people who refuse to accept anything their own eyes don't tell them, and people who are willing to accept that there's more to the world than they can immediately perceive. yes, definitely no scientists are religious, ever
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Dec 16, 2017 13:39
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botany posted:yes, definitely no scientists are religious, ever Is bioethics the study of what “god” did? Is god what is still mysterious?
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Dec 16, 2017 13:47
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Lurks Morington posted:
AA was developed and popularized in the mid 1930s by two alcoholic people who sincerely believed the only way they could stay sober was the power of a spiritual experience. So not really to do with cold war CIA stuff at all.
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Dec 16, 2017 14:51
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fishmech posted:AA was developed and popularized in the mid 1930s by two alcoholic people who sincerely believed the only way they could stay sober was the power of a spiritual experience. So not really to do with cold war CIA stuff at all. Ahh what about Ken Kesey and the electric koolaid acid test? Why can’t you do AA without hearing all the religious poo poo too? I’d pretend to be an alcoholic to meet alcoholics. Former drug addicts are usually cool. I suppose I’m lucky, but I don’t tie pleasurable experiences to drugs. Like, I don’t go more than a 6 pack deep by my myself. I don’t like weed by myself. I hosed around with hydros when I got my wisdom teeth out. But I (under 18) sold half the bottle to a friend. I like hitting the wall at the gym and smoking a cigarette. It’s probably going to kill me but I’m not very happy anyway Lurks Morington fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Dec 16, 2017 |
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Dec 16, 2017 15:54
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It's built into the core of the philosophy and is popular because Americans are big on the healing power of (the right) religion. There's other programs for addicts that aren't so Jesus-y.
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Dec 16, 2017 16:01
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That’s why I like secular poo poo. I don’t care which imaginary friend you have, just treat me normal
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Dec 16, 2017 16:11
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I feel like saying you don't care and then calling it an imaginary friend sort of betrays that point a bit. But I agree AA is bad. I went because I was required to for a grad school class and they did the Lord's Prayer at the end. I left and I felt them all staring at me but I didnt do it because I'm a perfidious Jew rather than any intended disrespect.
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Dec 16, 2017 16:26
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I’m dismissive because I care
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Dec 16, 2017 16:46
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Isn't Alchanon run by Scientology? And someone I knew in University did an essay about Holocaust Denial, and he got a little to into it, like a "hey some of this stuff makes sense" kind of thing. Lucky he was smart enough when presented with actual evidence was able to see through the BS. I showed him some of the primary sources (translated) I had for my own studies. Reading a camp kommandant's personal record of day to day at a death camp should be enough. Though through his research he found some Deniers claim that the Jews suppositly killed in the Holocaust never existed. There were never that many Jews in Europe at the time, and the claims of dead family members are just made up to blame the totally not evil and genocidal nazis for something that never happened. That ever single thing that points to it happening is just fabricated by the small groups of Jews that lived in Europe to guilt the western powers into given them a homeland and a blanket excuse for everything they do in the future.
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Dec 16, 2017 19:47
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Do the Holocaust deniers also deny the extermination of gay people, gypsies, and the retarded? Or do they only focus on the persecution of the Jews? It would be weird if they accepted that the Nazis wanted to destroy gypsies, gay folk, and the mentally challenged, but rejected the desire to eliminate the Jews, wouldn't it?
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Dec 16, 2017 20:08
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Mad Hamish posted:Do the Holocaust deniers also deny the extermination of gay people, gypsies, and the retarded? Or do they only focus on the persecution of the Jews? It would be weird if they accepted that the Nazis wanted to destroy gypsies, gay folk, and the mentally challenged, but rejected the desire to eliminate the Jews, wouldn't it? Well to be honest a lot of people who don't deny the Holocaust forget many of the other victims. Many people completely ignore the Roma people and the Jehovah's Witness victims for example and just after the war most governments wouldn't mention homosexual persecution for decades. In West Germany many pink triangle prisoners actually risked been put back into prison for violating Paragraph 175 because the law specified a term in prison and not a camp. So yes much of the holocaust revisionism revolves around Jewish casualties. There is one exception though, a group of right wing Christians have been explicitly denying the deaths and persecutions of queer people in the holocaust and even doubled down and insisted that most of the Nazi's were homosexual themselves. They rally behind a book called the Pink Swastika, which funnily enough mostly uses lies cooked up by Stalin's USSR in the 30's for its "evidence".
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Dec 16, 2017 20:33
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botany posted:yes, definitely no scientists are religious, ever He's not merely describing religion though, he's describing the kind of religious person who would not only believe that the Bible must be taken literally but also rejects any concept that feels counterintuitive. That's what really excludes scientists, and really just smart people in general, from what he's describing
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Dec 16, 2017 22:16
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twistedmentat posted:Isn't Alchanon run by Scientology? Do you mean Al-Anon? They're as stated a somewhat veiled evangelical organization. They don't make it outwardly known as far as I know but I've heard, to add to what's been posted, that a big part of it is Jesus and things related to Jesus. RocknRollaAyatollah fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Dec 17, 2017 |
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Dec 17, 2017 00:40
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Mad Hamish posted:Do the Holocaust deniers also deny the extermination of gay people, gypsies, and the retarded? Or do they only focus on the persecution of the Jews? It would be weird if they accepted that the Nazis wanted to destroy gypsies, gay folk, and the mentally challenged, but rejected the desire to eliminate the Jews, wouldn't it? I am pretty sure that like 50% of americans think gypsies are some type of fictional witch type creature in the same category as a leprechaun or something. Or is an olde timey 1800s thing, or is a quasi 'profession' like rail riding hobo was. Outside europe I think more people don't know "Gypsy" is an ethnic group than people that do know that.
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Dec 17, 2017 01:50
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twistedmentat posted:Isn't Alchanon run by Scientology? That's Narconon.
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Dec 17, 2017 01:54
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Alcoholics Anonymous is the original 12-step program which gets a bad rap for several legit reasons but otoh works for a few people. South Park took the piss pretty well imo. Narcotics Anonymous is the 12-step program but for drug addicts. It's the 2nd largest 12-step program organization. Narconon is the Scientology organization that looks to exploit the vulnerable and inadvertently kills a bunch of people. There is no Alchonon program, don't give them ideas. The Sausages fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Dec 17, 2017 |
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Dec 17, 2017 01:57
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"Inadvertently" seems to be awfully generous phrasing.quote:Narconon began operations in Oklahoma in 1990, as an unlicensed facility on the site of the Chilocco Indian Agricultural School near the town of Newkirk, claiming that it did not require a state licence, as it was operating on an Indian reservation. In 1992 it applied for a state licence, and was twice refused by the Oklahoma Mental Health Department, which found "no evidence that drug and alcohol abuse education was part of the program" and declared the program "not medically safe"
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Dec 17, 2017 03:53
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it's not that they forget there were other victims it's that "the holocaust" refers to the genocide of the jews (it was the translation used for shoah) generally speaking. the destruction of the roma is porajmos.
Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 04:07 on Dec 17, 2017 |
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Dec 17, 2017 04:04
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Yeah get with the pogrom you antisemites. It’s almost as if Germany rounded up all the “undesirables” and they became Jewish because they shared their stories while they were in camp.
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Dec 17, 2017 04:11
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what.
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Dec 17, 2017 04:12
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The conspiracy theory is coming from inside the house.
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Dec 17, 2017 04:35
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