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cargohills posted:This doesn’t mean anything but “I don’t like it”. Again, that’s fine - but it’s boring to talk about. "Goofball that gets clowned on" is ok characterization for some sideplot minstrel. It's not good for someone that is supposed to be like the #3 in charge of a galaxy wide army. It just seems cheap and reduces *any* threat he had to zero. They cut the legs off of their own tension with him.
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Dec 17, 2017 15:20
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cargohills posted:This doesn’t mean anything but “I don’t like it”. It's a basic and true observation actually. It's bad because the baddies are supposed to be both incompetent clowns and overwhelming force. This is the kind of doublethink Umberyo Eco identified as one of the basic ingredients of fascism, and Star Wars movies tend to be highly fascistic.
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Dec 17, 2017 15:21
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Fart City posted:What character in the prequel trilogy did I come to distrust that I cared about? By definition all of the characters in its overarching narrative were preordained. I never trusted Anakin Skywalker because I already knew he would become Darth Vader. I never doubted Obi-Wan because he's, well, Obi-Wan. Obi Wan, Yoda, Mace Windu, Padme, Senator Palpatine You can answer honestly here: when have you last watched 1-3? Slowly unraveling that the Jedi (especially Yoda and Obi Wan) are full of poo poo is essentially The Point(tm) of the prequels Fart City posted:Okay, how you want to play this? Because you have two options, and this only works if you've never seen the prequels and don't completely understand why Obi-Wan lied in the first place. Are you suggesting that finding out someone lied to you about your parentage wouldn’t make you re-examine your trust in them? Luke spends the last 10 minutes of Empire muttering about “why didn’t you tell me” and the audience wonders the same thing. We think “oh poo poo what else is Obi Wan hiding? Waffles Inc. fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Dec 17, 2017 |
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Dec 17, 2017 15:23
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:It's a basic and true observation actually. It's bad because the baddies are supposed to be both incompetent clowns and overwhelming force. This is the kind of doublethink Umberyo Eco identified as one of the basic ingredients of fascism, and Star Wars movies tend to be highly fascistic. Donald Trump is the President of the United States and is one of the most bizarrely incompetent people alive.
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Dec 17, 2017 15:25
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Or you could look at the drug-addled clownshow that was the actual Nazi leadership. Besides, they make a point that being incompetent, petty and emotionally unstable when in a position of massive power makes someone even more dangerous, that's basically Kylo Ren's whole character.
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Dec 17, 2017 15:28
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Nephthys posted:Donald Trump is the President of the United States and is one of the most bizarrely incompetent people alive. Yes but he is just that—a Total loving clown moron. No one (with a brain) thinks he’s a calculating menace. Meanwhile when Obama was president the right thought he was both an idiot and also a cunning mastermind of the new world order
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Dec 17, 2017 15:29
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Inescapable Duck posted:Or you could look at the drug-addled clownshow that was the actual Nazi leadership. Besides, they make a point that being incompetent, petty and emotionally unstable when in a position of massive power makes someone even more dangerous, that's basically Kylo Ren's whole character. Except Star Wars always makes a point to show that the simplest of mistakes can be awarded with a force choke death. Kylo only rises because he is closely guarded and taken under Snokes wings. He rises despite his instability... not because of it. He takes over at the end because of his unbridled use of violence and aggression. So it just seems odd that a bumbling idiot would get so high up.
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Dec 17, 2017 15:32
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Nephthys posted:Donald Trump is the President of the United States and is one of the most bizarrely incompetent people alive. You seem to be fantasizing that the Republicans are the First Order.
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Dec 17, 2017 15:33
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Waffles Inc. posted:Yes but he is just that—a Total loving clown moron. No one (with a brain) thinks he’s a calculating menace. Meanwhile when Obama was president the right thought he was both an idiot and also a cunning mastermind of the new world order But he still managed to bully his way into the most powerful position on Earth. That hes a moron just makes him more dangerous in a way, like Inescapable Duck says. But I suppose the actual Nazi's are a better example. They were complete lunatics and often very incompetent. Hitler himself was seen as a clown and people of the time didn't take him that seriously. And look at what he managed to do. Also Snoke points out himself why he keeps Hux around. His sniveling nature has a degree of cunning to it. BravestOfTheLamps posted:You seem to be fantasizing that the Republicans are the First Order. The First Order as the Alt Right has been pointed out already as a very plausible analogy. Nephthys fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Dec 17, 2017 |
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Dec 17, 2017 15:35
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Nephthys posted:But he still managed to bully his way into the most powerful position on Earth. Actually, he was voted in.
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Dec 17, 2017 15:37
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Palpatine is not George Bush. Snoke is not Trump. The Empire is not Nazi Germany. The Republic is not the USA. The First Order is not the Alt Right.Nephthys posted:But I suppose the actual Nazi's are a better example. They were complete lunatics and often very incompetent. 
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Dec 17, 2017 15:39
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BonoMan posted:"Goofball that gets clowned on" is ok characterization for some sideplot minstrel. It's not good for someone that is supposed to be like the #3 in charge of a galaxy wide army. Why? Milky Moor posted:Palpatine is not George Bush. Snoke is not Trump. The Empire is not Nazi Germany. The Republic is not the USA. The First Order is not the Alt Right. Are you trying to say that nothing about the world of Star Wars is inspired by things that have happened in real life?
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Dec 17, 2017 15:40
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This movie is why it's loving dumb to have different writers and directors for every film in a series. In TFA it was lauded for it's fan service and direct parallels to the original trilogy, down to having a goddamn Deathstar again. This movie is now lauded for "throwing out everything you know about Star Wars." I can get behind either direction and see the merits but it's loving jarring for these 2 films to be back-to-back. For the 3rd and final film we return ultrasafe JJ Abrams to the helm with a script co-written by the godawful Chris Terrio of Dawn of Justice/Justice League fame. WTF is this poo poo. Most of the reason this movie feels like poo poo is because of the differences in style and writing between Abrams and Johnson. I'd definitely take the consistent work of a single visionary filmmaker even if it takes 4-5 years per movie rather than whatever the Disney chop shop can spit out every 2 years. Kathleen Kennedy gotta go.
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Dec 17, 2017 15:43
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Milky Moor posted:Palpatine is not George Bush. Snoke is not Trump. The Empire is not Nazi Germany. The Republic is not the USA. The First Order is not the Alt Right. Next you'll be telling me that a Saarlac isn't actually a giant vagina in the desert that swallows men whole. 
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Dec 17, 2017 15:44
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Nephthys posted:The First Order as the Alt Right has been pointed out already as a very plausible analogy. ...no, it’s not. The characteristics of the alt right are race and “lulz” driven. It’s an ideology governed by wanting men and whites to be the most powerful. It’s also one where they specifically do not dress like fascists; they dress from the Belk sales rack. They spend most of their days on 4chan, Reddit and Twitter making fun of “normies” and destroying their coffee makers to “trigger” libs The First Order not only has women, but women of color on the bridges of their ships and they have a Stormtrooper Queen. People think the first order are the alt right because...Hux is young and also bad Waffles Inc. fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Dec 17, 2017 |
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Dec 17, 2017 15:45
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Nephthys posted:But he still managed to bully his way into the most powerful position on Earth. You are fantasizing that a bunch of loathsome political activists are the equivalent of Nazi Germany and a massive authoritarian sci-fi space state.
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Dec 17, 2017 15:45
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Nephthys posted:Next you'll be telling me that a Saarlac isn't actually a giant vagina in the desert that swallows men whole. The Sarlaac is not representative of your relationship with your mother, no.
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Dec 17, 2017 15:47
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What I'm saying is, you are Hux.
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Dec 17, 2017 15:47
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BonoMan posted:"Goofball that gets clowned on" is ok characterization for some sideplot minstrel. It's not good for someone that is supposed to be like the #3 in charge of a galaxy wide army. That is literally the plot of Final Fantasy 6, star wars but with a clown. It had a good story that is generally regarded as one of the best final fantasy stories.
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Dec 17, 2017 15:52
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https://youtu.be/u51xWB1NMJQ This is why that light speed ram was loving stupid.
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Dec 17, 2017 15:53
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gohmak posted:https://youtu.be/u51xWB1NMJQ None of the ships that get destroyed there are going at light speed. (Also who loving cares? It's one of the absolute coolest moments in the movie and if it actually was contradicted by an also cool moment in another movie... that's fine. It doesn't matter.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UinaxxXXt40 Here's a version of that clip that isn't completely poo poo, by the way.
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Dec 17, 2017 15:58
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gohmak posted:https://youtu.be/u51xWB1NMJQ It wasn't a lightspeed ram, it was a religious extremist driving an IED into a convoy of ships. It was the USS Cole.
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Dec 17, 2017 15:58
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Something that I am wondering will be addressed in the next film is where are the other students that left with Kylo Ren?
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Dec 17, 2017 16:59
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gohmak posted:https://youtu.be/u51xWB1NMJQ That's like comparing a large conventional to the Little Boy that was dropped on Hiroshima and bitching about them not doing the same thing. Yeah they're both bombs and the same weight, but the mechanisms are completely different. jisforjosh fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Dec 17, 2017 |
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Dec 17, 2017 17:04
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cargohills posted:Why? Because it removes any sense of credible threat. There's no weight or drama to his character. The writers have set it up to where I will always assume he gets dunked on. I don't mind him being the kind of "doesn't have the natural talent but struggled to the top and still struggles" kind of bumbling. But when you add literal loving phone prank jokes on it... it just removes any sort of threat I might feel from him.
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Dec 17, 2017 17:05
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When people point out that we have unstable dumbasses in charge of the most powerful military on earth *right now*, it does not need to mean that alt right=first order as some kind of 1:1 thing. What it does is refute the idea that Hux is some kind of ludicrously implausible figure. We just had the government allow Jared Kushner to try to negotiate Israel/Palestine peace for fucks sake. Idiots absolutely can get into power, and they absolutely can gently caress your poo poo up despite being idiots. Anyway long time listener first time caller I enjoyed TLJ and laughed a lot, and thought the ending was totally badass, but also thought it could use a better editor thanks very much I'll take my answer off air.
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Dec 17, 2017 17:14
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I didn't mind Hux's incompetence because 1) I am a big fan of the children's book series Animorphs and this is very Visser 3 behavior and 2) the Resistance leadership was shown to be exactly as incompetent. This is is just how military governance works in Star Wars now. Just a series of jealous subordinates stabbing each other in the back.
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Dec 17, 2017 17:16
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Waffles Inc. posted:Are you suggesting that finding out someone lied to you about your parentage wouldn’t make you re-examine your trust in them? Luke spends the last 10 minutes of Empire muttering about “why didn’t you tell me” and the audience wonders the same thing. We think “oh poo poo what else is Obi Wan hiding? Are you roleplaying Luke in this scenario? Because if you're taking about we, the audience, I would refer to your own work regarding "three movies of this." The prequels (and supplemental series) did nothing but paint Obi-Wan as a good, if not sometimes naive man who was failed as much by the Jedi Order as anyone. At no point is he shown to be distrustful or manipulative (without acting in motive for the greater good). By the time Empire ends you've sat through five movies reinforcing this. And, honestly, I rewatched AOTC and ROTJ about a year ago. I stand by my initial point.
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Dec 17, 2017 17:29
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Dec 17, 2017 17:35
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Hux’s threat is exactly the same as the Nazis’ threat - that regardless of competence, he’s actually willing to use the vast power at his disposal to the most horrific effect possible. The terror of the Nazis wasn’t that they were especially good at what they did. The Nazi state was massively inefficient and massively corrupt. The terror of them was that they inherited a European state, a power honed over the past century through racist, classist oppression into a perfect weapon for genocide, and actually used it to commit genocide. In fact, that genocide was a manifestation of their idiocy - wiser but no more moral minds saw no value in wiping out millions of their own citizens, especially when they needed the troops entrusted with the genocide to fight a war against an existential threat. Hux inherited an economy transformed by the incompetence of the Republic and the malice of the Empire to feed off suffering and death, and used it to blow up a solar system. Starkiller Base was a giant boondoggle that probably cost a ridiculous amount of money and was riddled with design flaws, but Hux wanted to kill a shitload of people, and he killed a shitload of people. He saw a hospital ship falling behind, and he made it die. He saw a bunch of unarmed transports fleeing for safety, and he made them die. He was an incompetent clown, but he was an incompetent clown who was in charge of immense military might and was willing to do whatever it took to satisfy his petty grudges and make his dick feel big, and so he ground down the Resistance from a respectably-sized fleet into enough people to fit on a single light freighter with room to spare because exercising that level of power only requires intent, not competence.
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Dec 17, 2017 17:37
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Fart City posted:Are you roleplaying Luke in this scenario? Because if you're taking about we, the audience, I would refer to your own work regarding "three movies of this." The prequels (and supplemental series) did nothing but paint Obi-Wan as a good, if not sometimes naive man who was failed as much by the Jedi Order as anyone. At no point is he shown to be distrustful or manipulative (without acting in motive for the greater good). By the time Empire ends you've sat through five movies reinforcing this. I just...I dunno man I guess we just have to leave it at that then? I cannot fathom the mind who watches confirmation of Obi Wan purposefully lying to Luke and thinking “Yes This Man is good and not deceitful”
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Dec 17, 2017 17:54
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The absolute best scene in the movie is Luke milking a softly hooting creature before angrily swigging its blue milk while glaring at Rey.
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Dec 17, 2017 17:57
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Tender Bender posted:The absolute best scene in the movie is Luke milking a softly hooting creature before angrily swigging its blue milk while glaring at Rey. I wish there was a gif of that.
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Dec 17, 2017 18:07
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Tender Bender posted:The absolute best scene in the movie is Luke milking a softly hooting creature before angrily swigging its blue milk while glaring at Rey. He's not angry and glaring in that scene.
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Dec 17, 2017 18:08
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Mr. Flunchy posted:He's not angry and glaring in that scene. Okay.
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Dec 17, 2017 18:11
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Mr. Flunchy posted:He's not angry and glaring in that scene. I certainly remember him being so.
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Dec 17, 2017 18:16
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Luke just kind of has that 'grumpy old man' thing going real hard for the whole movie. It feels like the different subplots of the movie had different people doing them (and that's probably accurate) but the Luke parts were great. Mark Hamill really grew into the 'jaded, angry failed revolutionary' thing. Also Zizek.
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Dec 17, 2017 18:19
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BlindSite posted:Eh, it's kind of an OK movie but it has some seriously lazy handling of characters. I hated the casino sub plot because it was almost entirely loving pointless. There's 0 possible reason it makes sense for the admiral not to tell Poe of her plan to launch the smaller ships and they really could have spent that time better expanding on Snoke and his role in turning Kylo Ren. Likewise, there was very little reason for Poe not to tell Holdo about his plan to disable the tracking beacon. Both of them are too focused on their own plans and this leads to disaster. Compare that to Rey and Kylo's sincere communication with each other, which ends with Rey becoming the successor to the Jedi and nets Kylo a huge promotion.
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Dec 17, 2017 18:22
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Holy poo poo, nerds are evolving into insufferable sperglords. Everytime I think I may be done being ashamed of my kin, they prove me wrong. TLJ is fine. It wipes its rear end with TFA. Sure, the Leia bit was moronic and the lack of communication creating conflcits was excessive. Big loving deal. I'll actually give a mulligan on the dumb miscommunication issues. The resistance is obviously a group of ragtag people and interests with nowere near the rigid chain of command of an actual established military, and people would butt heads even if they were not in a desperate situation, which they were. As for the Hyperspace Ram? That may have been the most beautiful cinematography I've seen in a sci-fi movie in years. You could have Michael Bay blow poo poo up for the next 50 years at max volume and it would never look that stark and grimly beautiful. Screw if it doesn't work like that or why don't more people do it in space battles if it's so powerful It's loving -shorthand-; a visual representation of how cornered they are and the extremes that someone on the verge of defeat will go to. And also bit of a callback to the Inquisitor being brought down by a suicidal ram back in ROTJ (Obligatory Lucas "See, it rhymes" RLM quote). Not gonna say the Space Monaco bit was good, but it was far from bad. It added a bit more flesh to the worldbuilding in a much better way than any of the prequels: See, there's people in this galaxy who don't give a gently caress about this resistance and New Order poo poo as long as they can live high. AND there's exploited people who could be future resistance/rebels. Pointless? 80% of everything the good guys tried this movie was pointless and _that was the point_: there's only so much you can do that works when you are being crushed left and right. Losers tend to keep losing as their options grow fewer and worse. It was a breath of freshair to see the plucky suicidal-odds gambit by the good guys actually fail, for a drat change. Everyone had an arc. Finn learning to stand and fight instead of flee. Poe learning that there's a limited number of costly maverick moves you can pull before you've killed every veteran in your team. Rey realizing that some people cannot be reached no matter how much you relate to them, and to stop counting on an idealized past to fix the present. Fighting choreagraphy was the best it's ever been. More kinetic than the slow sparring of the origianl trilogy, with far more weight and fury than the acrobatic ballet-fights of the prequels. I also have to admire the restraint in the writing and directing. It would have been SO EASY, to be lazy with important dramatic elements. Just give Rey a Yoda-like Jedi training like in Empire Strikes Back, people would have loved it; if she had levitated Luke's X-wing out of the water people would have drooled. Make Rey be Obi-Wan's daughter of Lando's albino nephew and fanboys would soak the theater floor in jizz. Turn off the tracker and the megaweapon is neutralized. But every time they took a different path, and kept the parallels low-key. No miracle victory at the 11th hour. They get to survive and renew their purpose, and that's all you get for now, all you can feasibly get sometimes. TL:DR- TelekiLeia was dumb. And if the ramming bothers you, you might as well rant about no grate on Death Star deathpipes and why laser guns make sounds in space.
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Dec 17, 2017 18:23
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There was a super brief scene that showed Rey had taken the books from the Tree on Ahch-To, right? Like Finn or someone opened a drawer on the Falcon for a blanket to put on Rose and the books were there? Or did I imagine that?
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Dec 17, 2017 18:25
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