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Lurks Morington posted:I’ll get a lesbian haircut and press jacket and be drowning in no time Cool, make sure you do what Caro should have done and die quietly tia.
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Dec 17, 2017 06:49
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| # ? May 12, 2024 16:17 |
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Vladivostok Until you are pressed into the Russian mob because you can't pay up
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Dec 17, 2017 06:51
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Viva Miriya posted:Cool, make sure you do what Caro should have done and die quietly tia. Hahahaha you’re getting a futwa bud. I kid! I kid!
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Dec 17, 2017 07:08
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Now you’re telling me things I already know. Do any of you guys know Matt Rosia, or his gay friend Kale? Do any of you guys know Matt Strom, doctor of cryptology? No so shut the gently caress up. Actually, I should be shutting the gently caress up. They could be dead or washed out. Like Josh Lewis. Who knows these things. I still owe him a picture of me next to a WWU statue Lurks Morington fucked around with this message at 07:16 on Dec 17, 2017 |
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Dec 17, 2017 07:09
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Lurks Morington posted:Now you’re telling me things I already know. Do any of you guys know Matt Rosia, or his gay friend Kale? Do any of you guys know Matt Strom, doctor of cryptology? Caro?
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Dec 17, 2017 07:25
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windshipper posted:Caro? Oh god, ban me it’s not even fun anymore. Lurks Morington fucked around with this message at 07:29 on Dec 17, 2017 |
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Dec 17, 2017 07:26
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Hey man, there’s always growing pains when you start a new career field. Just because you suck at lovely trolling now doesn’t mean you can’t get better at it. But yeah you really suck at this.
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Dec 17, 2017 08:07
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windshipper posted:
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Dec 17, 2017 08:54
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Lurks Morington posted:Oh god, ban me it’s not even fun anymore. ~ me while still in the navy except irl
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Dec 17, 2017 09:00
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Lurks Morington posted:Oh god, ban me it’s not even fun anymore. Sorry you suck at being funny. You should enlist as a Navy SEAL. When you get ASMO'd out of your 800 div or flunk Pre-BUD/S you can go undes to the fleet and watch paint dry for the next 6 years. I think that would be best for all concerned.
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Dec 17, 2017 13:18
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https://www.navytimes.com/news/your...m_medium=social "Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships"
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Dec 17, 2017 15:56
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Elendil004 posted:https://www.navytimes.com/news/your...m_medium=social Everything in there is true and has been said for years and nobody is going to fix it because the senior ranks are filled with people who didn't get the gently caress out of the toxic environment.
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Dec 17, 2017 16:14
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While I agree with a lot of the sentiments, neither collision would have been fixed if the skipper had better training as a JO. The FTZ bridgewatch team spent the night on the port bridgewing and didn't pay attention to the starboard side. That's basic loving watchstanding and 6 months at SWOS for that watch team that focused on shiphandling would mean dick because it was poor watchstanding not necessarily bad shipdriving that caused it. Likewise, JSM's collision was caused by a skipper's hubris, an inexperienced helm, and a general lack of casualty response on the part of the watchstanders. More time in a sim isn't going to help if the people can't grab the red loving book next to the helm and use it properly. Like I agree - SWOs in general need better shiphandling training, however, it wasn't poor shiphandling that caused the two collisions. Rather it was general jackassery.
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Dec 17, 2017 16:38
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More SWOS means more time in simulators and learning basic navigation and shiphandling. That's useful with pulling into a port unaided by pilot/tugs or in general how to usefully drive the ship. It won't do anything about a captain refusing to put a proper nav watch up before entering the SoM or a collective watch team (with 2-3 SWOs and dozen enlisted people in combat and the bridge) from playing with their dicks instead of looking outside. Yes, both collisions were major failures, but there isn't any seamanship training for the couple of SWOs would have fixed over people just generally pulling their heads out their asses.
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Dec 17, 2017 16:45
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Mr. Nice! posted:More SWOS means more time in simulators and learning basic navigation and shiphandling. That's useful with pulling into a port unaided by pilot/tugs or in general how to usefully drive the ship. Yeah, I don't think you can draw a straight line from the SWOS problems to those collisions in particular but I do think the general lovely culture and lack of professionalism and mentorship which the article also described played a part. e: I mean, what did it say to the SWO community about priorities and professionalism when every other designator needs months of schooling to even begin to do their jobs but hey you guys, just show up on a ship after your butterbars are on, you'll be fine? Stultus Maximus fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Dec 17, 2017 |
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Dec 17, 2017 16:48
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I mean, I totally agree that the ship handling of the SWO community has decreased over time. I am certainly not as good a ship handler as some of the grey beard captains I had as a DIVO. I don't know if I buy that it's because of a lack of sea time though. That certainly is part of it but I think the bigger factor is the general risk aversion the community developed over the last 20 years. Ships used to be able to bump and scrape the pier (and each other to some extent) in the name of ship handling training for SWO's but as ships got more delicate and expensive to fix the community was less and less tolerant of it and got more and more dependent on tugs and pilots until that became the new normal and we developed an absolute zero defect mentality for ship handling. It definitely affected me growing up. Out at sea, and even in restricted waters, I'm pretty confident and ballsy, but as soon as I get near a pier I get really anxious and self doubting. I hate pulling in and there were nights I couldn't sleep as captain because the next morning's sea and anchor was expected to be hairy. That said I hesitate to join the growing chorus calling for, "more sea time," for JO's. The SWO community is already incredibly isolated from the rest of the Navy let alone the joint world. Sucking officers back to sea for extra DIVO and DH tours is going to exacerbate that and cut us off from other skills and knowledge that will be needed if surface ships ever need to actually integrate into MCO (God forbid). I think the right lesson to draw from the last year is exactly what Mr. Nice said. The Fitz collided because an entire watch team was negligent. JSM collided because a captain made a bad call. There are ways to address these issues without tearing the SWO pipeline down and rebuilding it from scratch.
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Dec 17, 2017 17:00
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Part of how I learned not to gently caress off on the bridge wing for an entire watch as an OOW was having my rear end handed to me repeatedly in the simulator. I still have nightmare about a stupid fast ferry that came out of Calais at gently caress you knots while I was busy plotting the giant LNG carrier I was overtaking. I didn’t hit the fucker, and it just got me a stern talking to from the instructor, but man did I learn a lesson about tunnel vision that day. We spent like 45 hours on actual ship handling, everything else was coastal navigation and anti collision in the simulator. Ship handling was something we were expected to learn on the job, which makes sense. A lot of employers send their skippers and pilots to manned model courses, which look  as gently caress
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Dec 17, 2017 17:10
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Like it's totally reasonable to say SWOs in general are lovely shipdrivers. I got pretty good at pier work myself, but it's ultimately not that big of a deal. There are much more prevalent issues in the community (dickwaving about lack of sleep, SWOs eat their young, etc) that no amount of time in a sim will fix.
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Dec 17, 2017 17:18
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The best ship handling training I've gotten in the Navy was during what they then called, "High Speed OOD," as part of the LCS pipeline when I was a JG. That class was no loving joke. All of the scenarios had a time limit which ensured that you had to maintain a minimum level of speed while navigating and dealing with contact management. The final scenario was a night time, low vis, transit through Hong Kong harbor from pierside to sea with a man overboard at the end. You had like 35 minutes to complete it which meant you needed to average about 40 knots during the transit to pass. What I'm getting at is that no other ship handling training I've gotten has had that level of pressurization. They've tried, but none have matched it. We rarely take advantage of the simulators we have to really put people in scenarios that are harder then what people will probably see in real life. The final ship handling scenario as part of the Command Qualification Assessment was pretty close which is good at least.
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Dec 17, 2017 17:26
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Navy thread got Navy as gently caress! Chain lockers and ship driving! High speed OOD is the best Navy school I went to, and the only school where I felt pressure. Part of what is needed is that, but the other part that's hard to train to is training people to be bored. We obsess about casualty control, but you need to be checked periodically during slow watches with little happening to test your resolve, to ensure that you're going to do what's necessary. You could accomplish this in a simulation, but it's hard to justify 6 hour open ocean simulations where nothing happens. That really needs to happen in vitro. I was under the assumption that MML's predecessor might not be able to sleep and may come up any time, and I was consistently ready to explain my position, justify my actions and any violation of standing orders I was committing (sorry I didn't call when CPA on the DIW fishing vessel dipped within reporting criteria and that I didn't wake you up because barometric pressure increased--I'm fine with this situation and I need you to sleep or tomorrow will be a shitshow--mast me). That's because he would come up and check how things were going. And he did so in a way that didn't feel like I was on the spot or about to get blasted, like it was a test or that he was worried. He just seemed interested. He was probably making GBS threads bricks at my incompetent ship driving but his behaviour didn't make it feel that way. Simulators can't teach that I think.
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Dec 17, 2017 18:05
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Mr. Nice! posted:Likewise, JSM's collision was caused by a skipper's hubris, an inexperienced helm, and a general lack of casualty response on the part of the watchstanders. More time in a sim isn't going to help if the people can't grab the red loving book next to the helm and use it properly. I don't know what exactly a SWO sim usually entails, but would more sims and drills really not have helped with the JSM? It seemed like at least part of the problem was the buffoonery with transferring steering control in a panicked situation. You mention an inexperienced helm and casualty response, which are two things that, in aviation at least, sims are a great help for. The first thing I thought when I read the JSM report was that it sounded like a sim scenario gone bad.
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Dec 17, 2017 18:57
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piL posted:Navy thread got Navy as gently caress! Chain lockers and ship driving! I just want to say I completely agree with this. Boredom is a massive factor in this job.
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Dec 17, 2017 19:13
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Our best year was one where the culture had a brief positive peak under our skipper. There were lots of little signs that things were going well. (Goal oriented field days being one of them.) But the biggest effect of people feeling motivated was that we actually started doing walkthroughs and simulations. And by the end we really got into them, because the more people played along he more fun it was. So to set the stage, this is on a pacific submarine, and we spent about 4 months doing important but incredibly boring work. And for TF and skimmers et al, "Maneuvering" is the submarine engineering control room, and is this tiny 8x8 box with literal thousands combined of gauges, meters, switches, buttons, and indicator lights. And around the clock, at sea and in port, it has poor idiotic navy nukes cramped inside it. So needless to say it he's very boring when you're on mission. We started spending our six hour stints crammed in a little box talking through responses to various events. Alarms, emergencies, routine but difficult operations, and random what-if fuckups. The fuckup discussion turned into crawls through tech manuals to see who could come up with big problems that would be hard to detect or masked by knock on symptoms. It got into reviewing incident reports. And at the end of a week of this every other watch team and the rest of engineering got in on this because everybody wanted to seem smart. And then we started acting out emergency response and got really into it. And by really into it I mean we were making all the motions as if we were really doing things, calling out imaginary changes to readouts, imitating screeching wails of alarms and somehow having a blast doing it. It was dumb, but the more we chewed the scenery on our metaphorical stage the more hilarious this got. So eventually the rovers in the rest of engineering got in on this and started playing along with their actions and indications outside the box. Calling in reports and etc. The cone (tactical side of the submarine) saw us having fun doing our job and got in on it too. Their lives were far more hectic than ours thanks to constant tsunamis of contacts to deal with. But they too had long long chunks of time where nothing much would happen. So the control room started doing these pantomimed plays too. Ton of the junior people were begrudging at first, because drat if the fire control people didn't hate their jobs and fun in equal measure, and drat if the sonar techs wanted anything less than to sit in their dark room being pissed before immediately going back to their rack to sleep. But eventually their moods turned thanks to the exuberance of everyone else. And so the ship control party got a hell of a lot of practice drilled in too. They didn't want to feel outdone by stupid nukes back aft. And the reason it worked and spread was because the officer rotation worked. The engineering guy would claim the supiriority of his team over the others, and spur competition. But more importantly they were all our friends, and didn't try and force us to be perfect drones. And they also slowly made the simulations more and more professional. Started with like 60 second tidbits "walk through this part like the inspection team is in the room" and by the end of four months we were doing a whole hours worth of practice with perfect communication and professional demeanor. After that deployment we destroyed every inspection. It was the easiest workup ever because it was decided that we didn't need to do extra hours or Vulcan death watches to get still practice in. Then we went to shipyard and the CO changed and the new guy was a tool and all of that went out the window and the boat, I hear, still hasn't recovered from the morale pit.
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Dec 17, 2017 19:51
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Wingnut Ninja posted:I don't know what exactly a SWO sim usually entails, but would more sims and drills really not have helped with the JSM? It seemed like at least part of the problem was the buffoonery with transferring steering control in a panicked situation. You mention an inexperienced helm and casualty response, which are two things that, in aviation at least, sims are a great help for. The first thing I thought when I read the JSM report was that it sounded like a sim scenario gone bad. You are correct that more training for that specific helm/conn/ood situation would have helped. However, the JSM situation would have been prevented entirely if the captain had listened to the XO and had a proper watch team in place for a SoM transit. You don't drive into anything without an experienced helmsman. A master helmsman standing at the console would have prevented the situation entirely.
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Dec 17, 2017 21:11
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So one thing to remember in the case of JSM - it is SOP to have a master helmsman for any special evolutions and casualty response situations. Master helmsman is a specific qualification that is signed off specifically by the captain. I've known plenty of helms that could handle the SoM even though they're not master qualified, but i also know plenty of them that would have ended up in the same situation. There's a reason it's a separate qualification and it requires a lot of work.
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Dec 17, 2017 21:14
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Nautical as gently caress up in here.
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Dec 18, 2017 00:15
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Parallel rulers or triangles?
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Dec 18, 2017 00:21
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FrozenVent posted:Parallel rulers or triangles? Triangles. 
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Dec 18, 2017 00:30
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ManMythLegend posted:Triangles. I expected better of you, MML. 
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Dec 18, 2017 00:32
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Not sure how I feel about so much useful knowledge being thrown around here.
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Dec 18, 2017 00:33
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M_Gargantua posted:.... Hahahaaaaa. Yup, navy.txt right here.
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Dec 18, 2017 00:35
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FrozenVent posted:I expected better of you, MML. No way. Triangles are the best, and if you know how to use them people think you're some sort of sorcerer.
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Dec 18, 2017 00:46
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Obviously the solution to the collision problem is an all-battleship Navy or all ships with a large enough displacement to do more damage than they receive. At this rate we're going to have a real life enactment of the "ship vs. lighthouse" chicken story eventually.
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Dec 18, 2017 00:50
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BIG HEADLINE posted:Obviously the solution to the collision problem is an all-battleship Navy or all ships with a large enough displacement to do more damage than they receive. That's a true story man I know a guy who knows a guy that was on the lighthouse
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Dec 18, 2017 01:04
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Slavic Crime Yacht posted:That's a true story man I know a guy who knows a guy that was on the lighthouse I know a guy who met a dude who did his GMDSS with a guy who was nearby and heard the whole thing on 16. ManMythLegend posted:No way. Triangles are the best, and if you know how to use them people think you're some sort of sorcerer. They’re poo poo for long lines though.
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Dec 18, 2017 01:09
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FrozenVent posted:They’re poo poo for long lines though. That's true, but I still think they're overall way better and easier to use.
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Dec 18, 2017 01:53
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For pilotage and plotting, sure. Coastal navigation and planning? Parallel all day erryday.
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Dec 18, 2017 01:56
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Navigation neeeeerrrrrddddss *Drives a keyboard in cyberspace*
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Dec 18, 2017 02:58
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Dividers and a ruler https://www.mathopenref.com/constparallel.html Edit: right click -> position EBL piL fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Dec 18, 2017 |
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Dec 18, 2017 02:58
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| # ? May 12, 2024 16:17 |
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The best thing to use for navigation is a deck officer
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Dec 18, 2017 06:01
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