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I was confused about the plains farm too, didn't seem like a very good tile. Only time I build those is to spread irrigation. What did you end up doing with the Great Generals? Magil Zeal fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Dec 17, 2017 |
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Dec 17, 2017 22:30
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Man, I really appreciate the succession game going on here, but the past few posts are just the sort of math that fascinates me when I read a report yet stresses me out when I try to run an empire in any civ game.
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Dec 17, 2017 22:51
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Yeah, the math stuff can get a bit much, but the real takeaway here is food trumps everything. It just goes into the why's of it.
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Dec 17, 2017 23:17
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Magil Zeal posted:I was confused about the plains farm too, didn't seem like a very good tile. Only time I build those is to spread irrigation. Nothing yet, we don't really need them at the moment. We should probably make one into a super medic.
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Dec 17, 2017 23:19
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Super medic is pretty great. I usually just end up settling them in the units factory.
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Dec 17, 2017 23:20
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Learning all kinds of things about trade routes over here
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Dec 18, 2017 02:18
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Botswana's up next, I'll explain Great Generals and a bit more about specialist usage (Samog asked for this) when I can post again. Samog if you can go into more detail about what you want to know about specialists that might help.
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Dec 18, 2017 09:58
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Can we add anything on combat and on units? Something that had been in Melth's LP was that Warriors are terrible, and you're better off waiting for Archers or Cavalry (but never for squatting on your cities). Now, Civ2 had veterns, but Civ4 had levels, and at each level you could pick an improvement, or a heal (unless I'm confusing it with Civ5). How does that affect strategy for combat units? Is defense multiplicative in Civ4?
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Dec 18, 2017 10:41
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painedforever posted:Can we add anything on combat and on units? Something that had been in Melth's LP was that Warriors are terrible, and you're better off waiting for Archers or Cavalry (but never for squatting on your cities). Now, Civ2 had veterns, but Civ4 had levels, and at each level you could pick an improvement, or a heal (unless I'm confusing it with Civ5). How does that affect strategy for combat units? Is defense multiplicative in Civ4? Combat is weird. -Every unit has a base combat strength (e.g. warriors have 2, axemen 5, swordsmen 6). -Every unit has 100 max HP. An unit that engages combat while at less than 100 hp loses combat strength, so that a unit that has 73 HP will fight at exactly 73% of its base combat strength. -This doesn't apply to HP loss during current combat: an axe that engages at full HP will fight at 5 for the whole combat. -The "combat" series of promotions increases base strength by 10% each (additive). Thus a combat 1 axe has a base strength of 5.5 and a combat 5 axe is 7.5. Out of the top of my head this is the only thing that affects base combat strength. -Basically every other modifier behaves differently; let's take an axe attacking another axe as an example, on neutral ground so terrain doesn't matter for the sake of the argument. Axes have +50% vs melee before the shock promotion, 75% after shock promotion. This does not mean than an axe attacks/defends at 7.5/8.75 vs other melee units. Instead, all the modifiers are added together for both units and whomever has the highest modifier gets the difference. So, if both axes are the same the fight is a 5 v 5. If only one axe has the shock promotion, then that axe has a +75%, the other has +50%, and in the end the shock axe gets a +25% (=75 - 50) for a 6.25 vs 5 combat -This way of calculating the modifiers is because the combat engine looks at only the strength ratio between combatants, not at the absolute difference. Thus, a 6.25 vs 5 fight has a ratio of 1.25, while a 8.75 vs 7.5 fight has a worse ratio of 1.1(6) As for the actual combat, oh god I'll give the cliff notes version -Combat is made of rounds. -for each round, the winner of the round deals damage to the loser. The chance of winning a round is based on the strength ratio. -the damage dealt also depends on the combat ratio; the baseline is 17 HP per round for evenly matched combatants. -first unit to lose all HP dies. special ability: first strike and first strike chance Unit with "first strike" cannot be damaged for the first N rounds of combat, where N is how many first strikes they have. I assume that if both sides have first strike they cancel each other out as much as possible. "First strike chance" is like first strike, but it's only a chance for a first strike each combat. I have no idea on the numbers though. Some units have innate first strikes and chances (e.g. archers); the "drill" series grants first strike and chances; add all first strikes and chances together for the final tally, the Chu-ko-nu (China's UU) is infamous for being able to reach 5 guaranteed first strikes and 3 further first strike chances. special ability: withdraw This ability only works on the attack, and triggers on the round where the unit would get killed. Upon losing an attack, an unit with this ability has the chance to cancel the combat round that killed it (reversing the fatal damage) and instead break off from combat. All other damage that the combatants sustained is there to stay. Some units have innate withdraw; the "flanking" promotions grant withdraw too; add all percentages together for the final chance. Omobono fucked around with this message at 14:18 on Dec 18, 2017 |
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Dec 18, 2017 13:17
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turns 150-160 We turn our warrior into a super medic with a Great General. I think it's generally better to assign a GG to a lower strength unit bc not only will they get a free upgrade to, say, a rifle down the line, but also because they're bottom priority when the game decides who fights who in a stack. It makes all of our damaged units in that city heal in two turns! Whoaw!  Shaka keeps sending pitiful stacks at us. This lil stack gets reinforced a lil later by more Horse Archers and some swords, but it only manages to kill an axeman during a city siege. We also produce a Longbow for Edirne, just bc I feel more comfortable with one there when we move out to attack Shaka a lil later.  Otherwise this engagement is the only other one of note. We need to renegotiate this treaty with him at some point. I hope Shaka has some good surplus resources! I've gone Guilds > HBR > Aesthetics and this turn Literature finishes. This is so we can get the Heroic Epic, which helps us pump out more units (confers a 100% bonus to unit production in a city.) We're still first in GNP. Hell yeah bahbey. Next guy notes: Get some knights and kill Shaka now!! He doesn't have Longbows yet so you could still feasibly take a city or two without too much hassle if you start whipping all of the knights we have on production right now and then move out to Umgungundlovu. Even if he had longbows it wouldn't be too bad, but it would mean we'd have to drag our catapults everywhere. Ganbatte!!
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Dec 18, 2017 14:29
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What was the Great Scientist used on?
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Dec 18, 2017 18:46
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I know Cyrus had fish in his territory, so he probably hooked it up and that's why he's decided to cancel that deal. Should probably still be able to get Incense if needed by trading Gems.
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Dec 18, 2017 19:54
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So first up, I'm supposed to be next but this LP has been going faster than I expected and I have family stuff going on right now so I'm going to need to pass out of the roster for a while. Second, whoever takes the next turn instead of me can't do it without a save lol.
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Dec 19, 2017 05:13
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I can take the turn tomorrow--but yeah, I'll need the save, doesn't appear to be in the latest post!
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Dec 19, 2017 05:45
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I like watching people who are good at Civ play Civ. I play usually in the mid-difficulties, but I don't have the patience to move workers around so I usually automate them and I only move citizens around on the city screen if something is going really wrong with the AI.
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Dec 19, 2017 17:04
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Oh gently caress I forgot to post the save lol. Ill post it now
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Dec 19, 2017 19:50
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http://www.mediafire.com/file/c2basuzeueba3ah/CIV_4_LP_T160.CivBeyondSwordSave
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Dec 19, 2017 21:21
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Since this turn is warfare focused I won't be doing a city-by-city sit-rep this time. Shaka has a lot of cities for us to take, but we need to do so before he reaches Feudalism and upgrades his Archers to Longbows! That will let us win a clean victory. Note: when I started this turn, a huge portion of our worker force was fortified in Ankara. I put them back to work building roads, chopping, and rearranging tiles. There's still plenty to be done, not the least of which making sure we have roads from our territory to Shaka's.  First thing I do is hit up Cyrus to see what I can do in regard to resources. He won't do anything but one-for-one trades, to nobody's surprise. He also doesn't want to trade off his techs. I get incense for gems. As I suspected, he no longer wants fish because he has his own source.  We have Bureaucracy, but never swapped to it? Weird. I swap off Literature for now for Monotheism, which can be done in 1 turn even at 100% gold. We can get Literature after that.  And we have a Great Scientist we never used. If we want a mega-capital, now is the time to use it. An Academy in our Bureaucracy capital will do nicely.  Everywhere that can build Knights, does. I throw up a Stable in our main military production center, and continue to produce Knights.  Only one turn for a double-revolt. Done.  Once I have Knights I start to cautiously advance our stack through Shaka's territory, eliminating another stack along the way.  Even our Spearmen pick up some EXP, though one manages to die at >95% odds. Our Knights "flank" catapults!  Catapults and other siege units are immune to normal collateral damage, but mounted units can "flank" a stack to inflict collateral damage to siege units. However, a flanking attack only happens if your attack is successful or the unit withdraws, so "suicide" tactics don't work like they do with catapults. Bombard, send the catapults in, take the city. We don't suffer any major losses, I think maybe one knight, one axe, one catapult, and one spearman were lost over my whole turn.  I pillage Shaka's horses and iron to prevent him from producing Horse Archers (which could potentially raid our lands) and Swordsmen. Swordsmen can still take knights when entrenched, not as well as longbows due to lacking an innate city defense buff, but with the same base strength they'll still give you bad odds when behind walls.  See? Not good odds.  After we take the city, Shaka slams a stack into our units parked in the city. They manage to kill one knight but otherwise we win all the fights.  War weariness is starting to creep up... I continue to produce knights everywhere that can make them to finish this asap.  This will likely be our eventual Heroic Epic spot, but for now I continue to simply make more knights. The next leader may have different priorities.  Engineering comes in. I chose this tech because it dramatically improves our movement on roads, and I've been keeping our workers busy making sure our units have a clear path to the front line.  We could potentially make a play for Liberalism, and it may still be a good idea, but I thought it'd be a shame if we didn't get to show off our unique unit when there's a good opportunity for it, so I put us in for Gunpowder afterward.  Perhaps I am playing too cautiously, but I still don't like these odds. I'll let the next leader decide on the proper method of attack. If it was just one or two swords in the city I might go for it, but there are several.  We're starting to lag behind in GNP. Islam was founded in a far away land. With Bureaucracy and an Academy, our capital is producing over 100 beakers per turn, but we need Shaka's land to keep up. From the looks of it he has some good cities and not so good cities (I would think we might want to raze that city that has like 5 total land tiles, one of which is a peak). The city we've taken isn't super amazing, lots of plains, but it has pigs, horses, and potentially iron (if we take it off the Zulu cap) so it could be another good production city with some elbow grease. It has a Granary and a Forge already. Press the attack, for the Ottomons! Shaka is 12 turns out from Feudalism, which gives is a nice cushion, and that should lengthen if we can take a couple of cities. We also receive a Great General right on turn 170, so use it how you wish (Shaka slammed some chariots into us between turns, getting us the last few points needed). Here's the save. Magil Zeal fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Dec 20, 2017 |
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Dec 20, 2017 03:19
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Bluff Buster posted:Man, I really appreciate the succession game going on here, but the past few posts are just the sort of math that fascinates me when I read a report yet stresses me out when I try to run an empire in any civ game. You want some absolutely terrifying civ 4 let's play math? check Sulla's stuff here. The guy uses the score chart to work out how and when and where his opponents are building units and buildings. http://www.sullla.com/civ4MP.html
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Dec 20, 2017 13:01
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Looking over it now, and just thinking about it. Do we want to make Shaka our Vassal or just flat out kill him?
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Dec 21, 2017 00:55
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I don't have much experience with taking the AI as a vassal, I pretty much always go for the kill (I mean, I usually play with vassal states off anyway, gently caress having an AI I'm destroying vassalize to someone more powerful). I say take his stuff, but others with more experience with that kind of mechanic might want to weigh in.
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Dec 21, 2017 16:10
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Kill him 
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Dec 21, 2017 17:24
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Eric the Mauve posted:Kill him
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Dec 21, 2017 17:32
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Right, gonna make up for last time now: And just a warning, as the people who play pitbosses with me know, combat isn't my strong point, so feel free to correct any mistakes I make. T170  So, this is pretty much gonna be stack vs stack combat, my stack is arrayed at the bottom and is made up of 7 Knights, 7 Catapults, 6 Axemen and a Spearman, things with the green dot haven't moved and are able to attack, things with red dots have moved and can't attack. In addition to this, due to our massive espionage on Shaka, we can actually see what he's building in his cities, it's mostly Catapults, which Knights just manhandle. As for Ulundi, it's building a Spy and it has +40% defense due to a combination of walls and culture (I'm always a bit hazy on this), but thankfully, we have Catapults. Catapults (and siege as a whole) in this game have two main uses. Firstly, they can attack stacks effectively due to the fact they deal collateral damage, allowing them to damage multiple units in a stack, which is good, but they can't kill stuff while attacking it, so don't make your entire army out of catapults! Secondly, they can bombard down the defenses of a city, this is completely safe for them to do, but it counts as their attack for the turn, and it lowers the defensive bonuses of the units in the city, so, while in Magil's last picture, he was getting odds of around 67%, let's see what happens after I bombard.  That's acceptable odds for me, my Knights slaughter everything, but then there's basically 1 Axeman left in the city, which I get bad odds on with my own Axes, so best to wait for a turn and bring up the Great General to begin healing my troops.  Just as a suggestion, I'd HIGHLY recommend using our great generals on two movers like Chariots over Warriors, the odds of us getting enough exp on our Warriors to get Woodsman 3 (which would make it worth it) is so low that by the time we do it we'd have probably won the game. With that in mind, I use our Great General on a Chariot, so at least we'll have something able to follow our Knights and 2 movers and help them out, which also allows me to split my stuff into 2 movers and 1 movers.  Either way, I grind the stack down over 2 turns then take Ulundi. And then...speaking of 2 movers splitting off.  My Knights go and take kwaDukuza while the 1 movers go East. We lose 3 Knights but seriously, I think it's worth it. Anyway, I carry on inching East, sacrifice some Catapults to work down another city, but while I'm doing that, I decide to be cute and go up the Optics part of the tech tree to see if we can get caravels to explore the rest of the world and if this +1 ocean sight range will do anything.  Bingo. Few words about Justinian, he has a sickass theme, and he's one of the ultra religious leaders. He will get a religion and he will spread it like an absolute psycho. This means that starting next to him is really, really good because you'll basically get his religion in all of your cities because he'll just build 20 missionaries to flood you. Starting further away is a bit more annoying. He also loves to build Wonders, but he has 0 in this game, which suggests there's someone who likes to build them even more, like Louis or something.  Excuse to listen to his theme longer and solve our happiness/health problems a little, this is known as a win-win.  Rather annoyingly, taking all these cities didn't stop his Feudalism progress at all, but Borsche should be able to just slam Knights into Ndonda and then just take Ondini with our remaining 1 movers or just get it in a peace deal, regroup for 10 turns and then just loving finish him. Anyway, Borsche is up, I'm getting Paper because ??????? https://chucat.s-ul.eu/JaukUIoH
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Dec 21, 2017 20:04
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I think we should raze Ndoukusuka because every single good tile it has can be worked by the city SW of it, and by the looks of things it doesn't have any sea resources. That's a really bad city. Mmm, looking forward to getting workers to those Zulu cities and shaping them into something nice and productive. Edit: And reflecting on more recent Civs, it's nice that we basically just ran over Shaka, took all his cities, and our best friend Cyrus is totally cool with it. I miss that. Byzantium has 14 cities, that's quite a bit compared to the Civs on our continent (well, except for us post-Shaka conquest). Magil Zeal fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Dec 21, 2017 |
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Dec 21, 2017 20:28
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Magil Zeal posted:Edit: And reflecting on more recent Civs, it's nice that we basically just ran over Shaka, took all his cities, and our best friend Cyrus is totally cool with it. I miss that. Oh god THIS. This so much. You so much as sneeze at an opponent's city in 5 or 6 and suddenly all the world treats you like the unholy spawn of Sauron and Cruella deVille. As to walls: they only work against non-gunpowder units, they make the city more resistant to the bombardment of catapults and trebuchets, and if the cultural defenses of a city are less than 50% they are increased to 50% (before bombardment reduction is factored in). EDIT: castles further reduce bombardment damage and raise the cultural defense floor to 100%; that also happens to be the maximum. Castles are still useless against gunpowder-based units and have some other benefits. Walls and castles suck, don't bother building them. Omobono fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Dec 21, 2017 |
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Dec 21, 2017 21:56
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Magil Zeal posted:I think we should raze Ndoukusuka because every single good tile it has can be worked by the city SW of it, and by the looks of things it doesn't have any sea resources. That's a really bad city. can't, Nongoma blocks all better plants it's still a really bad city though. hopefully the lighthouse survives capture. e: oh you meant and just ignore the coast. eh, it'll probably pay for itself. barely. Omobono posted:Walls and castles suck, don't bother building them. walls are great, but shouldn't be built until you actually need them. they can buy you a serious amount of time.
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Dec 21, 2017 22:25
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Yeah I'd disagree about not building Walls and Castles. They're really, really, really good at making Ancient era wars a total waste of time before Construction, and they're even better at making Medieval wars a hellslog for attackers. Also a trade route is nothing to sneeze at.
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Dec 21, 2017 23:00
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explain your tech choices and alternatives!
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Dec 22, 2017 04:07
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Interesting thing about medics: to get the best of both "high mobility unit" and "weak combat strength" on a GG Super-Medic, I've often seen Great Generals used on Explorers for Super Medics. Only about as strong as a Chariot, with move 2 and the ability to ignore rough terrain!Samog posted:explain your tech choices and alternatives! I can't speak for Chucat's turn, but on mine I chose: Monotheism: Though Judaism is long gone, I wanted this for the Organized Religion civic, primarily for the benefit of +25% production towards buildings in cities with our state religion. I believe every city we own or capture from Shaka has Confucianism, so it'll be a nice boon to building infrastructure. Moreover, I wanted to swap to Bureaucracy, and figured getting two civics in an anarchy period was better than one, so I went for it right away. Literature: This was finishing off someone else's tech choice, but the primary benefits of this civics are the Heroic Epic and the National Epic. The Heroic Epic gives +100% production towards military units in a city, and the National Epic gives +100% towards Great People points in a city. We'll need to decide the best location for the National Epic before we get good use out of that (typically you run it in a city with a very high food surplus and assign the maximum possible amount of specialists), but the Heroic Epic will go nicely in our production hub. Keep in mind you don't really ever want to build the Heroic Epic in a mixed city, every hammer you spend on infrastructure in a HE city is essentially a wasted hammer that could've been put towards a unit. Literature also unlocks the Great Library world wonder, which I'm not certain we're going for, but it's a pretty good one, especially in a GP farm city with the National Epic. Engineering: The primary reason I went for this tech is the increased movement speed on roads. Normally, moving along roads costs half of a move point, but Engineering reduces that to one-third. As we were in a hot war with Shaka at the time, I wanted our war machine to keep on rolling as fast as possible, and that meant keeping our knights stomping over the border as quickly as possible. Engineering also unlocks the Notre Dame world wonder, a powerful wonder that increases the happiness of all of your cities on the same continent as it by 2. It also unlocks the Castle building (which has been discussed, it's a very strong defensive building that grants a trade route), as well as the Pikemen and Trebuchet units. The pikeman unit is pretty much what you expect, a stronger spearman (pike 6 spear 4). The trebuchet is a slightly weaker catapult (catapult 5 trebuchet 4) that has +100% strength when attacking cities. While trebuchets are better at attacking cities and bombard city defenses better than catapults, they're also more expensive at 80 production to the 50 production catapult. Gunpowder: Pretty much just for the Janissary, our unique unit. Some alternatives I could've gone for: Paper + Philosophy + Education to Liberalism: Lots of goodies along this path, with the ultimate goal of being the first Civ to research Liberalism, which grants a free tech to the first Civ to discover it. We could use that on Nationalism and adopt the Nationhood civic to draft Janissaries, a pretty potent weapon! My problem with this path is that it would've taken quite a while and drafted Janissaries wouldn't really be in time to help us against Shaka, we want him dead quick. Along the way, Philosophy would found Taoism for the first Civ to discover it, Education unlocks Universities, and Paper enables Map Trading (a few other wonders are allowed along the way). Music: If we were the first Civ to discover it, we'd get a Great Artist! If nothing else this would be able to grant us a Golden Age. Decided to go for other techs given our war status. And frankly not sure if the GA is even still up for grabs. Printing Press: This is actually a really good tech that gives +1 Commerce to Villages and Towns (advanced cottages). We should get it soon, we'd get a nice commerce boost for that.
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Dec 22, 2017 16:22
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yeah!
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Dec 22, 2017 17:40
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Chucat posted:Yeah I'd disagree about not building Walls and Castles. They're really, really, really good at making Ancient era wars a total waste of time before Construction, and they're even better at making Medieval wars a hellslog for attackers. Also a trade route is nothing to sneeze at. This is true but with the caveat that you really don't want to waste the hammers on them until you know the attack is coming. The +1 trade route isn't bad and you do get +25% espionage from the Castle too, but it obsoletes very early, and unless you're protective/have stone it is a little bit too much of an investment. For defense, you're better off spending hammers on catapults and other collateral damage units.
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Dec 24, 2017 04:11
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I'm at my brothers atm, by the way. I'll take the turn at some point tomorrow.
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Dec 24, 2017 04:12
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I don't have anything to add gameplay wise but I was sorting through my files and found this illustration I did a few years back of what Isabella is like in this game. 
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Dec 24, 2017 12:12
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The only inaccurate thing with this image is that she usually goes for Buddhism.
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Dec 24, 2017 13:04
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Captain Fargle posted:I don't have anything to add gameplay wise but I was sorting through my files and found this illustration I did a few years back of what Isabella is like in this game. Seems legit. She's even worse than Montezuma, with the caveat that if you spawn next to her you can just wait until you get her religion (usually Buddhism) and then enjoy a flank completely, 100% guaranteed to be war free no matter what and a Just never, ever switch out of her religion.
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Dec 24, 2017 14:07
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Kassad posted:The only inaccurate thing with this image is that she usually goes for Buddhism. you WILL embrace tranquility isabella screams as she stomps on my face again and again
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Dec 24, 2017 23:14
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Magil Zeal posted:The trebuchet is a slightly weaker catapult (catapult 5 trebuchet 4) that has +100% strength when attacking cities. While trebuchets are better at attacking cities and bombard city defenses better than catapults, they're also more expensive at 80 production to the 50 production catapult. More importantly, they look completely ridiculous when attacking.
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Dec 25, 2017 06:52
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Alright I took my turns. Finished Paper and got Education, but midway through researching Edu someone popped the free tech at Liberalism. This is kinda a bad sign since it means we're at least 3 techs behind on the tech leader, someone that's on an island we haven't discovered yet. But the war against Shaka continues. We take raze a city and continue to develop our recently captured ones. As far as the tech picture goes, I think we should move towards Military Tradition so we can build Cuiraissiers and start gearing our war machine to take over Cyrus. These continent games are usually just a race to see who can take over their own continent first - hopefully this at least either gives us the commerce base to advance, or an industrial base so we can invade another continent. AI is pretty bad at prioritizing space race at least, so if worse comes to worse we'll have that.  I do want to take a time out again to talk about micro. This ties in with my last post but this city was awful. Those 2 grassland tiles were cottaged over, giving us only a +6 food surplus. That's not even enough food to work all the tiles in the BFC! We have 12 plains tiles so we need at least +12 food to work those tiles (if we wanted too, realistically we'll probably just work the 4 river plains and then specialists). I went ahead and farmed the grassland tiles to up our surplus to eight, so the city will grow faster and actually work good tiles. http://www.mediafire.com/file/acxe32a7f0zz4g1/CIV_4_LP_T190.CivBeyondSwordSave
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Dec 28, 2017 03:12
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I was also interested in fixing that city but it had only barely regained its borders at the end of my turn, still culturally crushed by the Zulu capital  It's one of those cities that will be difficult to make much out of but we can make it do a few things with some worker attention and focus. I do dislike working plains cottages though. Magil Zeal fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Dec 28, 2017 |
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Dec 28, 2017 16:26
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