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it's cool that people think that Admiral "My plan is to die slowly' Holdo was the Right Person to Lead
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Dec 18, 2017 18:56
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Oh yeah on planet salt, I thought when no one was responding to help and then Luke went out there that Leia would broadcast footage of him to the galaxy, showing Kylo and the empire being made fools of by one guy and inspiring everyone. That didn't happen but then the ending scene had the kids re-enacting it. Did word of mouth travel that fast? Did the first order broadcast it thinking they were showing the end of the resistance? Did force broom kid experience everything through the force and tell his buddies? Episode 9 will have Rey and Kylo flirting through their connection again, broken up by Luke and Yoda messing with Kylo and broom kid psychically asking for someone to come by so he can earn his freedom by winning a If they brought in Kasdan to help with episode 7, can they get Lucas's ex-wife Marcia to help with 9? bagrada fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Dec 18, 2017 |
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Dec 18, 2017 19:03
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We're not going to campaign in Michigan Poe
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Dec 18, 2017 19:03
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Seems Tom Hardy was in this is as well.
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Dec 18, 2017 19:12
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bagrada posted:If they brought in Kasdan to help with episode 7, can they get Lucas's ex-wife Marcia to help with 9?
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Dec 18, 2017 19:22
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Right, the issue is text vs subtext. Textually, Poe is not a misogynist. Subtextually, this is about a brash man who immediately and for little reason distrusts a highly feminized woman in power, defies her to do his own plan, fails spectacularly, gets hundreds killed, is only stopped when he’s shot by another woman, and then learns the first woman was totally right all along, leading to him listening and learning. It’s absolutely a story about how men interact with women, in particular the innate disrespect men like Poe often have for women and how that’s wrong. It’s not a coincidence that the debate about Holdo is falling heavily on gender lines. Science fiction is metaphor for the real world hth Z. Autobahn fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Dec 18, 2017 |
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Dec 18, 2017 19:24
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Lessail posted:We're not going to campaign in Michigan Poe
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Dec 18, 2017 19:29
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Everyone C-3PGO to Crait!
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Dec 18, 2017 19:34
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It's ok for the plan to have sacrifices if it is the white women's plan
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Dec 18, 2017 19:40
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Z. Autobahn posted:Right, the issue is text vs subtext. Textually, Poe is not a misogynist. Given reading, what are your thoughts on the women you mention speaking to one another without Poe's awareness about how great he is? Given that that is the text, what are we to make of it? An excuse for sexism in heated times of conflict?
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Dec 18, 2017 19:41
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bagrada posted:Oh yeah on planet salt, I thought when no one was responding to help and then Luke went out there that Leia would broadcast footage of him to the galaxy, showing Kylo and the empire being made fools of by one guy and inspiring everyone. That didn't happen but then the ending scene had the kids re-enacting it. Did word of mouth travel that fast? Did the first order broadcast it thinking they were showing the end of the resistance? Did force broom kid experience everything through the force and tell his buddies? Word of Galactic events in Star Wars, much like the speed of ships in transit, always happen exactly as fast as they need to.
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Dec 18, 2017 19:43
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GoldfishStew posted:I am going to own a lot of you with the following post: Thank you for this. I couldn't totally put my finger on why I liked this movie so much, but you've very well explained what it was I thought I was getting out of it. I just kept summing it us as 'female empowerment,' but this is a better description of how that was actually executed.
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Dec 18, 2017 19:51
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Just came outta seeing this for a second time. Great and fantastic and rad movie. Everything is as good as the first time, or better, except Holdo’s stupidity which was just SO MUCH WORSE this time around. Poe literally yells “TELL ME WE HAVE A PLAN!!!!!” in her face and instead of like, you know, telling him the good plan, she just starts waffling on about “well this is what Leia says about hope”. Then when he finds out about the transport ships plan it would be so easy to say “they’re not scanning for those” yet she doesn’t. She just makes herself seem like the biggest moron, and it slightly ruins what is conceptually a great arc for Poe because he’s completely justified in his mistrust. e: I find the feminism angle being banded about in this thread interesting but ultimately not very legit. If Holdo had been a dude people would be saying “oh it’s about how men in power are arrogant” etc. Escobarbarian fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Dec 18, 2017 |
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Dec 18, 2017 19:52
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The set-up for Admiral Holdo is really poor IMO. If they knew they were gonna promote her, maybe they should have had her appear in the background of The Force Awakens? Because we've seen those command headquarters, and it's just unconvincing that a purple-haired person, hitherto unseen, comes out of nowhere to assume command for Leia. And the purple hair. Are there even any other characters with hair like that? I don't want to hate on it but it just felt terribly out of sorts here. I see the role Holdo served in tempering Poe's rashness and I love Laura Dern, but that whole character was a wet fart.
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Dec 18, 2017 19:56
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What is it with goons and wet farts.
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Dec 18, 2017 19:57
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euphronius posted:What is it with goons and wet farts. it's pretty weird imo
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Dec 18, 2017 20:01
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I saw it last night. Here are my general impressions. Most of the movie felt Star Wars enough for me but the overall package left a bad taste in my mouth. The humor felt really out of place. There is plenty of room for humor, but it just started taking things too far for my liking. Leia Poppins, no. They could have had her save herself in a much less goofy fashion. I know it was supposed to be a badass holy crap she can do that moment, but it fell flat for me. Casino planet felt really out of place. The entire sequence felt like they were channeling the prequels and not in a good way. Also you can't have a casino planet and not give me a Lando cameo at least damnit! The space battles. Well at least we got some this time, but there was no life to them. There are always plenty of nobodies to die in Star Wars fights, but these all went the same way. Fight starts, everyone not important spontaneously combusts. Even the bomber stuff in the beginning showed them for only a few seconds. All of the action took place inside. The big fight on the planet went the same way. No cool fight choreography or anything. Just march forward slowly and all the nobodies explode instantly. Then stand around a while. Yeah...exciting. The red imperial guard guys. I hate their look, just too much red. But beyond that I knew I was going to hate them when the first time they do anything is to make action ninja poses like 10 year olds in the background. Their weapons were on the goofy side too. I am very surprised we didn't see one with laser nunchucks. The fight was otherwise fine. Finn sucks. Seriously, when does he ever do anything but screw up? It's like to get her hyper-competence, Rey had to drain any he might have possessed. Rey was fine though she continues to be super strong with no explanation. At least she trained for like, 3 minutes or so this time? Phasma is the perfect foil for Finn since all she can do is screw up too. Meanwhile all the complaints about R2 getting powered up in the prequels have nothing on BB-8 who they may as well mass produce. He'd take out the entire First Order in a week and then find some way to robo-fart on their corpses. I hated Snoke, but to just unceremoniously off him without any delving into his backstory is even worse. I was expecting the real him to pop out at any second after that fight, but nope. Though I kind of feel that isn't the last we've heard of him. Rey having the 2 halves of the lightsaber implies she is going to build her own I guess. That is fine, but I am not sure I trust them to avoid coming up with some horrendous gimmick lightsaber. (Maybe laser-chucks will exist afterall!) Seems like she would go with a staff-like saber if she strays from the norm, but I don't trust them not to go crazy. For all the uproar about Porgs being the new Ewoks, I didn't find them that intrusive. They barely impacted anything and their few sight gags weren't bad. The lightspeed attack was a really cool visual though Holdo's plan to stay behind and stare out the window while doing absolutely nothing seemed pretty stupid until she was forced into action. It was cool to see Yoda again though he looked a little off. Luke's maneuver was pretty good though the force stroke or whatever you want to call it was kind of anticlimactic. I hope we get some ghost Luke in the next one. I don't mean to sound too negative because unlike the prequels it mostly "felt" like Star Wars to me, but I would not call it a good movie. I'd watch it again on cable, but I'm not rushing out to see it multiple times or buy the Blu-ray.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:02
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I can't speak for all the other misogynists itt but the reason the Holdo stuff falls flat isn't because of its message, it's that it was placed awkwardly and crammed in between the intrigue of Rey/Luke/Kylo and a casino subplot in a setting so lazily designed it wouldn't look out of place across the street from Dexter Jettster's diner. If you gave it room to linger and exist the reveal that she was right and Po is being dumb would've carried more weight than it did.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:06
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I did an actual laugh-out-loud when Ren's little lightsaber trick to kill Snoke worked. It was played as serious but come on that poo poo is goofy.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:08
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Lessail posted:We're not going to campaign in Michigan Poe 
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Dec 18, 2017 20:09
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euphronius posted:What is it with goons and wet farts. It's this thing, called an analogy, used to express the lack of one's satisfaction with a subject and it's execution by likening it to an embarrassing and disgusting bodily function that doesn't even have the bombast and comedic qualities of a standard, ie "dry," fart. Welcome to a comedy forum!
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Dec 18, 2017 20:10
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Wolfsheim posted:If you gave it room to linger and exist the reveal that she was right and Po is being dumb would've carried more weight than it did. I think you may have a point. It definitely isn’t served well by how rushed it is. It’s just a couple “hey we got a plan?” “lol gently caress off flyboy” scenes basically.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:11
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Was she right? I thought her point was kinda undercut by how the 95% of the tiny ships ended up getting blown up anyway. The message got really muddled there imo.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:14
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The Leia Poppins/Superman meme is getting real dumb, especially when posters want people to read their opinions as their own. I hit that part of personal reviews and I just glaze over. Leia Organa Skywalker Solo, daughter of Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker finally uses the Force to do more than just sense when someone is close by or dies and uses it to sustain her life and pull herself to the airlock while she's dying in the vacuum of space. So the internet explodes. What in the actual gently caress?
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Dec 18, 2017 20:15
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Vegetable posted:I did an actual laugh-out-loud when Ren's little lightsaber trick to kill Snoke worked. It was played as serious but come on that poo poo is goofy. Snoke was pretty strongly supposed to be an evil wizard of oz type. He had his fancy tricks and hologram head and stuff but he was really just kinda a doofus in a bathrobe. I don't think they wanted to take it all the way out to zero threat and only comedy but once you meet him he really isn't supposed to be the big bad he projected in the first movie, he's just kinda a mean loser, who died a stupid death. He was all snoke and smirrors all along.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:15
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s.i.r.e. posted:It's this thing, called an analogy, used to express the lack of one's satisfaction with a subject and it's execution by likening it to an embarrassing and disgusting bodily function that doesn't even have the bombast and comedic qualities of a standard, ie "dry," fart. Welcome to a comedy forum! Oh he wasn't being literal?? Wow that clears it up.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:16
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Vegetable posted:I did an actual laugh-out-loud when Ren's little lightsaber trick to kill Snoke worked. It was played as serious but come on that poo poo is goofy. There's no way that the old man who's describing in detail how his subordinate is going to kill a woman while sounding like he's tending to his erection and on the verge of cumming himself isn't anything but goofy. Good thing said old man isn't really strong with the force to feel an object moving right next to him.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:16
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Vegetable posted:Was she right? I thought her point was kinda undercut by how the 95% of the tiny ships ended up getting blown up anyway. The message got really muddled there imo. That only happened because Del Toro betrayed Finn and Rose, which was only because Poe let them go on the mission to begin with.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:16
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s.i.r.e. posted:There's no way that the old man who's describing in detail how his subordinate is going to kill a woman while sounding like he's tending to his erection and on the verge of cumming himself isn't anything but goofy. Good thing said old man isn't really strong with the force to feel an object moving right next to him. He didn't notice the object moving right next to him because he was focusing on Kylo's thoughts, and assuming he was interpreting them correctly, because it seems Kylo was focusing his thoughts on things that can be misinterpreted (Kylo killing turning his lightsaber in order to kill his one true enemy, or however Snoke said it). I thought it was actually one of the more clever parts of the movie.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:19
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Escobarbarian posted:That only happened because Del Toro betrayed Finn and Rose, which was only because Poe let them go on the mission to begin with.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:20
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thrawn527 posted:He didn't notice the object moving right next to him because he was focusing on Kylo's thoughts, and assuming he was interpreting them correctly, because it seems Kylo was focusing his thoughts on things that can be misinterpreted (Kylo killing turning his lightsaber in order to kill his one true enemy, or however Snoke said it). I thought it was actually one of the more clever parts of the movie. Look buddy, you can't expect viewers to know that just because we see it happen in the movie at the same time the movie tells us it's happening.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:21
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One of the only visual parts in this movie I thought could have been done better (probably the only one? drat this was a gorgeous movie) was that we should have seen the saber go through Snoke. It’s obvious it’s going to happen as soon as you see it turning, so only showing his face wasn’t the most effective method imo Also re: Leia flying, it’s another thing where yeah, conceptually it could totally work. I love the idea that Leia’s been secretly training herself for decades and was that powerful. But the actual execution - the way it just comes out of nowhere, and the fact it looks kinda silly - causes it to be one of the movie’s weaker scenes.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:22
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Snoke's also representive of the old guard of force users, with all of the hubris that they often fell victim to. The posturing, golden robe, pageantry of his throne room; it's all to reinforce that he is to be respected because of his apparent domination - or mastery - of the force. The new crop - Rey, Kylo Ren, the stable boy - the force is something more inherent, more naturalized to them. Snoke got dunked on by Kylo Ren because he repeatedly underestimated his power, because as the Guy On The Throne thats how this poo poo is supposed to work. One master and one apprentice right? Not anymore. The strength of the new generation wipes the old rules away.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:28
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Escobarbarian posted:That only happened because Del Toro betrayed Finn and Rose, which was only because Poe let them go on the mission to begin with. The interesting thing is the complete willingness to blame the (supposed) consequences of Poe's "permission" given to Finn and Rose's mission on Poe because the consequences are bad, but the consequence of his defeat of the Dreadnaught (that the Resistance is not immediately destroyed upon the Resistance finding out they can be tracked through lightspeed) shouldn't be a sign that he was "right" about destroying it That's setting aside that there was clearly never a cloaking device to begin with and that one can imagine the first order gunners going, "um we can literally see the ships" (Also not for nothing but Leia floating in space was pretty neat) Waffles Inc. fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Dec 18, 2017 |
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Dec 18, 2017 20:32
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AndyElusive posted:The Leia Poppins/Superman meme is getting real dumb, especially when posters want people to read their opinions as their own. I hit that part of personal reviews and I just glaze over. The Poe - Holdo thing is getting a lot of attention but you have made the much more interesting point. Luke can do the impossible but Leia does something besides kiss her brother and it gets poo poo on.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:33
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Escobarbarian posted:One of the only visual parts in this movie I thought could have been done better (probably the only one? drat this was a gorgeous movie) was that we should have seen the saber go through Snoke. You do, very clearly. Perhaps it's censored in some countries.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:34
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Fart City posted:Snoke's also representive of the old guard of force users, with all of the hubris that they often fell victim to. The posturing, golden robe, pageantry of his throne room; it's all to reinforce that he is to be respected because of his apparent domination - or mastery - of the force. The new crop - Rey, Kylo Ren, the stable boy - the force is something more inherent, more naturalized to them. Snoke got dunked on by Kylo Ren because he repeatedly underestimated his power, because as the Guy On The Throne thats how this poo poo is supposed to work. One master and one apprentice right? Not anymore. The strength of the new generation wipes the old rules away. He actually makes the same mistake the emperor did, which is funny considering his "you're no Vader" trash talk.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:34
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The more I think about it the more I realize how bad this movie is. If you want to deconstruct Star Wars in the middle of rebooting it, which it seems what Rian Johnson was going for, then for the love of God at least avoid lazy plot devices and schizophrenic messaging. I also now understand why Mark Hamill was so publicly critical of Luke's characterization in this movie. Rian Johnson made Star Wars into his own Star Wars. I appreciate the creative balls that takes. But he did it in a way where the movie he made was too uneven and just wasn't good enough to justify what he did. On his creative ego trip he also managed to kill off almost everything interesting that TFA sets up. A mark of a good series is after watching an episode you want more. For example, after I watch a Game of Thrones I can't wait to watch a new episode. After watching the Empire Strikes Back you also feel this way. Not this movie. It killed almost all interest I have in the series. Any interest I have in Episode IX will revolve around how the show runners dig themselves out of the massive hole that was dug for them. I think this video is a pretty good representation of my criticisms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdLQaO552RE
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Dec 18, 2017 20:35
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Escobarbarian posted:
It doesn't come out if no where though, everyone at this point in the saga should know she's strong with the Force. From the moment she was born as the daughter of "The Chosen One" to her sensing Luke's call at Cloud City, to the instant in RotJ when Vader taunts Luke by saying he'll turn her to the Dark Side instead. To her knowing Han has been killed by her Son, to her even knowing its Ben buzzing the tower in Last Jedi. It's all setting up the fact that she has potential. And that she uses it to give herself a slight tug of momentum towards an airlock after being sucked out into space? That's not silly imho, it's loving awesome.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:35
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Saw the movie yesterday, here's my hot takes: 1. I would have never expected that I could find a space battle boring, but this movie managed to achieve it. There was such a complete lack of excitement or tension that I got annoyed whenever the movie would return to it from the far more engaging things happening with Rey and Luke. I can understand the siege metaphor but it's still executed in an incredibly boring and completely uninteresting way. 2. The movie is determinedly anti-climatic at times in a way that seems almost cowardly. See: Leia Poppins and Rose interrupting Finn's valiant little self-sacrifice at the last minute (and potentially getting more people killed). 3. Vice Admiral Unnecessary. We've never seen her before, are given zero reason to care about her, and her entire plot line is blatantly contrived and just as conveniently ended as it was introduced. 4. The anti-capitalist 'message' of the casino scene is undermined by the focus on how arms-dealers are apparently the only bad rich people, plus the fact that the movie ends with a toy commercial. Darth Walrus posted:Going back (many) pages to our discussion about Hux, one real-life individual who keeps coming to mind is Oskar Dirlewanger (caution - that’s a really disturbing Wikipedia page). Dirlewanger was an Obersturmfuhrer, the SS equivalent of a brigadier, and was, by most measures, a total fuckup. He was this weedy, weird-looking, alcoholic, obviously mentally unstable dude whose main military asset was his miraculous ability to not die when his poorly-led, poorly-disciplined, and poorly-trained soldiers screwed up again. He was hated by his peers and openly disrespected by his subordinates... and a favourite of the Nazi leadership, showered in medals and promotions. Why? Because he was up for absofuckinglutely anything. Exterminate a ghetto? Sure. Massacre POWs? That too. Loot the countryside under the excuse of putting down ‘bandits’? Dirlewanger was your man. When they needed something utterly horrific done with zero hesitation or compunction, they knew where to look, even if he’d get most of his own men killed in the process. The analogy falls flat though when you consider that even the Nazis knew Dirlewanger was only good for murdering civilians, his unit was never assigned to front-line duties and took extremely high casualties whenever it engaged in actual fighting with partisans. They got used to terrorize occupied territory so actually useful units could be relieved for the front. Hux on the other hand keeps getting entrusted with critical objectives and incredibly important assets despite his track record of incompetence and failure. Snoke had a line about how he's useful because he's vicious, but surely the FO could find someone who's both vicious and vaguely competent?
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Dec 18, 2017 20:36
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