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AndyElusive posted:It doesn't come out if no where though, everyone at this point in the saga should know she's strong with the Force. From the moment she was born as the daughter of "The Chosen One" to her sensing Luke's call at Cloud City, to the instant in RotJ when Vader taunts Luke by saying he'll turn her to the Dark Side instead. To her knowing Han has been killed by her Son, to her even knowing its Ben buzzing the tower in Last Jedi. But she didn't train/i didn't see her learn how to do that I completely agree with you
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Dec 18, 2017 20:38
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Waffles Inc. posted:Given reading, what are your thoughts on the women you mention speaking to one another without Poe's awareness about how great he is? Given that that is the text, what are we to make of it? An excuse for sexism in heated times of conflict? I feel like the read here is right in the text: that despite Poe’s flaws and biases, he’s still a good guy with a lot to offer, he just needs to learn and grow. The message isn’t “men are scum, kill all men!”, it’s that men need to overcome their biases and doing so will make them better leaders and people.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:40
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Mr. Flunchy posted:You do, very clearly. Perhaps it's censored in some countries. You see it when Kylo fully slices through him and his top half falls over, but the initial impact of the saber on him only shows his face. At least in the UK cut, but I have no reason to assume it’s different anywhere else.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:44
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When I came out of the theater I wasn’t sure how i felt about this movie. The more I think about it though the more I dislike this movie. Also now that Luke’s story is over, I have almost zero excitement about seeing IX.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:44
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You clearly see the saber bisect Snoke
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Dec 18, 2017 20:45
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thrawn527 posted:He didn't notice the object moving right next to him because he was focusing on Kylo's thoughts, and assuming he was interpreting them correctly, because it seems Kylo was focusing his thoughts on things that can be misinterpreted (Kylo killing turning his lightsaber in order to kill his one true enemy, or however Snoke said it). I thought it was actually one of the more clever parts of the movie. Snoke's shown to be super powerful with the force, so much that he can link people's loving brains across the god drat galaxy in a long distance skype call where they can literally see and touch each other, and transmit loving physical matter over their call. He lifts and ragdolls people more than anyone else in the series as well. So when he jumps into Kylo's mind to read his thoughts he can't figure out that he's doing two things at once nor can he feel the literal object inches from his hand moving? Hahahahahahaha.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:45
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Deadulus posted:When I came out of the theater I wasn’t sure how i felt about this movie. This was me last night.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:45
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s.i.r.e. posted:Snoke's shown to be super powerful with the force, so much that he can link people's loving brains across the god drat galaxy in a long distance skype call where they can literally see and touch each other, and transmit loving physical matter over their call. He lifts and ragdolls people more than anyone else in the series as well. So when he jumps into Kylo's mind to read his thoughts he can't figure out that he's doing two things at once nor can he feel the literal object inches from his hand moving? Hahahahahahaha. He was blind to it because he didn't suspect it at all because of his arrogance. This also happens to Sidious by the way.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:46
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Z. Autobahn posted:I feel like the read here is right in the text: that despite Poe’s flaws and biases, he’s still a good guy with a lot to offer, he just needs to learn and grow. The message isn’t “men are scum, kill all men!”, it’s that men need to overcome their biases and doing so will make them better leaders and people. If this is the case, then sadly Poe doesn't learn anything. If Poe does not believe that women who are more 2017 American Media "feminine" than Leia are capable of leadership, then surely his view is reinforced as he wakes up to see the collapse of Holdo's plan? To follow this thread, what we are shown that men must be removed from their illegally gained power through violence (fwiw a women led coup of congress and POTUS would be a net positive in 2017 real america) Deadulus posted:When I came out of the theater I wasn’t sure how i felt about this movie. That's a shame. The more I think about it the more I love it
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Dec 18, 2017 20:47
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s.i.r.e. posted:Snoke's shown to be super powerful with the force, so much that he can link people's loving brains across the god drat galaxy in a long distance skype call where they can literally see and touch each other, and transmit loving physical matter over their call. He lifts and ragdolls people more than anyone else in the series as well. So when he jumps into Kylo's mind to read his thoughts he can't figure out that he's doing two things at once nor can he feel the literal object inches from his hand moving? Hahahahahahaha. Maybe he put all his skill points into the brain linking skill tree by saving points he could have put into the movement detection skills. Star wars has been pretty consistent that there are a few things pretty much any jedi can do but beyond that it's a crapshoot of everyone having a bunch of weird one off things they do.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:48
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There's such an easy solution to Admiral Holdo's circumspection that I'm not sure why they couldn't work it in to the movie better. Say she's worried about spies or the message leaking out somehow, that's all you really need. Especially because that's exactly what happens but the movie never presents her as aware of this possibility so it looks like she's keeping everyone in the dark because she's a bad (or maybe just uninspiring) leader.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:49
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She and Leia were tying to teach Poe a lesson. They didn't expect he'd gently caress up so much.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:50
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s.i.r.e. posted:Snoke's shown to be super powerful with the force, so much that he can link people's loving brains across the god drat galaxy in a long distance skype call where they can literally see and touch each other, and transmit loving physical matter over their call. He lifts and ragdolls people more than anyone else in the series as well. So when he jumps into Kylo's mind to read his thoughts he can't figure out that he's doing two things at once nor can he feel the literal object inches from his hand moving? Hahahahahahaha. You're giving Snoke more credit than he deserves I think. You're assuming that because he's shown incredible aptitude in manipulating the dark side that he's able to keenly be aware of his surroundings while simultaneously being inside Ben's mind, restraining Rey and taunting all at once. poo poo man, I mean he's shown to be pretty powerful but even Palpatine couldn't stop Vader from tossing him. All Kylo did was punk him with a 90 degree turn of the handle and a flick of a lightsaber switch.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:50
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s.i.r.e. posted:Snoke's shown to be super powerful with the force, so much that he can link people's loving brains across the god drat galaxy in a long distance skype call where they can literally see and touch each other, and transmit loving physical matter over their call. He lifts and ragdolls people more than anyone else in the series as well. So when he jumps into Kylo's mind to read his thoughts he can't figure out that he's doing two things at once nor can he feel the literal object inches from his hand moving? Hahahahahahaha. Snoke is pretty clearly either lying or obfuscating the truth because Luke can do this too. Snoke is Kylo's adopted dad attempting to take credit for matchmaking Kylo and Rey, when they began their relationship of their own accord
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Dec 18, 2017 20:50
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This has probably asked many times, but is there a sound file of the "Holdo maneuver", or do I need to wait for the BR release? I need a new, impressive notification sound for my mobile.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:51
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NmareBfly posted:There's such an easy solution to Admiral Holdo's circumspection that I'm not sure why they couldn't work it in to the movie better. Say she's worried about spies or the message leaking out somehow, that's all you really need. Especially because that's exactly what happens but the movie never presents her as aware of this possibility so it looks like she's keeping everyone in the dark because she's a bad (or maybe just uninspiring) leader. Holy poo poo THIS. It would literally take one line of dialogue!!!
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Dec 18, 2017 20:52
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Waffles Inc. posted:If this is the case, then sadly Poe doesn't learn anything. If Poe does not believe that women who are more 2017 American Media "feminine" than Leia are capable of leadership, then surely his view is reinforced as he wakes up to see the collapse of Holdo's plan? Poe understands that Holdo's plan only collapsed because of his actions; he realizes the fault is his, not hers.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:53
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TLJ is a love letter to the YPJ
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Dec 18, 2017 20:54
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Escobarbarian posted:Holy poo poo THIS. It would literally take one line of dialogue!!! They had one line of dialog that I'm sure the writers thought explained things but nerd decided didn't. The line was her saying he was demoted just minutes earlier and he didn't have the rank to hear the plan.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:55
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Man I’m real sad we’re not gonna get any Leia/Rey force scenes in ep 9. That was so clearly where that was gonna go and it would have been so sick. Arguably the floating Leia is worse because we’ll never get any follow-up 
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Dec 18, 2017 20:56
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:They had one line of dialog that I'm sure the writers thought explained things but nerd decided didn't. The line was her saying he was demoted just minutes earlier and he didn't have the rank to hear the plan. I don’t remember her saying specifically that he was too low-rank to hear the plan, is that for sure what she says? Cause yeah if so I’ll give it a lil more of a break.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:57
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Z. Autobahn posted:Poe understands that Holdo's plan only collapsed because of his actions; he realizes the fault is his, not hers. If we believe that Holdo truly did have a cloaking device, then how is it true that his actions are what caused the plan to "fail"? Are we meant to believe that it is Poe's fault that Finn and Rose trusted Benecio Del Toro?
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Dec 18, 2017 20:57
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Waffles Inc. posted:If we believe that Holdo truly did have a cloaking device, then how is it true that his actions are what caused the plan to "fail"? Are we meant to believe that it is Poe's fault that Finn and Rose trusted Benecio Del Toro? Poe blabbed on an unsecure line about the details of Holdo's secret plan, which let Del Toro hear them and tell the empire.
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Dec 18, 2017 21:00
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:They had one line of dialog that I'm sure the writers thought explained things but nerd decided didn't. The line was her saying he was demoted just minutes earlier and he didn't have the rank to hear the plan. We don't see literally anyone else on the entire ship tell either Poe or the mutineers the real plan. That means one or more of these things are true - Holdo didn't tell anyone what the "real" plan was, and simply ordered the fueling of the shuttles - Holdo only told those above Poe in rank, who didn't tell Poe or any mutineer because they all think he is an idiot too - Holdo only told those above Poe in rank, who didn't tell Poe or any mutineer because they believe incredibly strongly in the chain of command - Holdo did not have a real plan Z. Autobahn posted:Poe blabbed on an unsecure line about the details of Holdo's secret plan, which let Del Toro hear them and tell the empire. So his failure is in trusting Finn and Rose?
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Dec 18, 2017 21:01
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Escobarbarian posted:I don’t remember her saying specifically that he was too low-rank to hear the plan, is that for sure what she says? Cause yeah if so I’ll give it a lil more of a break. He asks what her plan is and she says some "I seem to remember you were demoted by leia herself not 10 minutes ago" or something to that effect.
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Dec 18, 2017 21:02
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Escobarbarian posted:I don’t remember her saying specifically that he was too low-rank to hear the plan, is that for sure what she says? Cause yeah if so I’ll give it a lil more of a break. I think she does, but there was still an opportunity to expand on it a lil'. She has a moment to make an inspiring speech and basically says 'trust the chain of command' which is... fine. It's just kind of flat. She could have said 'They're obviously tracking us. We're not sure how, but it means key details here are need-to-know...' and it'd play much better IMO. Also Poe never really knows that it's his fault the transports get shelled, does he? From the transport's perspective the Imperials just noticed them for no reason.
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Dec 18, 2017 21:03
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NmareBfly posted:Also Poe never really knows that it's his fault the transports get shelled, does he? From the transport's perspective the Imperials just noticed them for no reason. Correct. He only knows Finn and Rose have "a hacker", not that he is currently listening or anything and certainly not that he had betrayed them
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Dec 18, 2017 21:06
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For what it's worth with regards to Holdo, it felt to me a lot more of a "military"/grunt vs. "civilian"/officer battle between the two. Poe is the fighter, the ace pilot, his solution is to go blow stuff when things go bad. He concocted this large plan about blowing something up to escape. Meanwhile, Holdo sees the big picture, and concocts an escape plan based on diversion and secrecy to maintain the safety of the group as a whole. Obviously everyone in the Rebellion/Resistance are fighters, but the repeated comments about how many fighters they lost vs. what damage they did definitely pointed me in that direction. Now, that's not to say you can't code that sort of message within contexts the audience may be more familiar. I don't think it was any accident that Holdo was a woman of clearly high class (similar to Mon Mothma and Leia, though obviously those two would be far too respected/trusted to have these sort of "I know best" plans). You could look at it as the man being brash and hotheaded, disrespecting a female authority figure, or you could look at it as the working class up against the ruling class (particularly with mention of Poe's demotion), and that's probably a deliberate decision by the filmmaker. It's a conflict that works in the context of the universe and in the audience. This is why I'm actually glad Holdo was someone we've never seen before. We've no reason to trust that she knew what she was doing - the film deliberately painted her as a potential traitor at worst, coward at best. That meant her ultimate "redemption" - though with the assistance of a much-loved character - worked quite well.
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Dec 18, 2017 21:06
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CelticPredator posted:She and Leia were tying to teach Poe a lesson. They didn't expect he'd gently caress up so much. A life or death struggle isn't the best time to teach lessons that could tilt the outcome toward's 'death' if things go badly. EDIT: I'm betting that if the character of Holdo wasn't a woman, the argument would be framed more along the lines of the arrogance of the officer class vs boots on the grounds types. Vernii fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Dec 18, 2017 |
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Dec 18, 2017 21:06
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Vernii posted:A life or death struggle isn't the best time to teach lessons that could tilt the outcome toward's 'death' if things go badly. It wasn't a life or death struggle if everyone would have just stayed cool. They were in no real danger till poe made them be in danger by 'saving" them. I think it's the same as luke saying the force isn't lifting rocks, it's about balance. Like you CAN lift rocks with it. But if everyone just was cool and stopped using the force in both directions it'd stop escalating to ever more dark side monsters and ever bigger lightside heroes.
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Dec 18, 2017 21:12
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If you're a recently demoted poo poo-for-brains muscle you really have no justification for demanding a motivational speech, let alone top-secret strategy. It also doesn't look like anybody else had a problem with following the chain of command.
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Dec 18, 2017 21:12
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To me, I felt that the point of Holdo's plan was to illustrate that secrecy and subterfuge were really the only tools that the Resistance has left. The Republic capital is gone. Support for the cause is strained. They're three ships being chased down by an iron wall of destruction. With so few bodies left in the ranks, the stakes for who knows what and why become much more important. It's more or less the "loose lips sink ships" doctrine in action.
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Dec 18, 2017 21:13
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s.i.r.e. posted:Snoke's shown to be super powerful with the force, so much that he can link people's loving brains across the god drat galaxy in a long distance skype call where they can literally see and touch each other, and transmit loving physical matter over their call. He lifts and ragdolls people more than anyone else in the series as well. So when he jumps into Kylo's mind to read his thoughts he can't figure out that he's doing two things at once nor can he feel the literal object inches from his hand moving? Hahahahahahaha. "I mean, we can put a man on the moon but we're still basically very stupid. The guy who's car this is, he could be one of the guys that built the rocket. You see what I'm saying?" "Well, yeah, he can build the rocket, but he's still stupid for double-parking and blocking somebody in." "So you really understand my point about building the rocket and double-parking?" "On the one hand he's smart with rockets and on the other hand he's dumb with parking."
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Dec 18, 2017 21:13
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Darth Vader, one of the most evil figures in galactic history. Luke: I know there is still good in you; I will not fight you father. Ben Solo showed signs of going bad. Luke: Hmm, maybe I should kill this kid. I know the snippets in this video were edited to make probably an unfair point, but I still found it prescient: https://youtu.be/i0biqMZrxJ0 Also, what's people's opinion on this: https://youtu.be/FntZKz9fXp8 I personally think Mark was probably let in on the plan, because he's probably seen a script for episode IX. But let's say they kept it a secret from Mark; Rian is one stone cold mofo.
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Dec 18, 2017 21:13
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:It wasn't a life or death struggle if everyone would have just stayed cool. They were in no real danger till poe made them be in danger by 'saving" them. Nah, they were definitely in danger, the characters just got lucky that things worked out through writer fiat (ie, that no one on the First Order decided waiting around is for chumps and called in reinforcements). It also assumes without any evidence that the First Order isn't scanning for departing objects, that no one on the pursuing warships on an active radar or even a loving IR sensor that would spot engine heat, that the FO doesn't notice the planet and decide to check it out, that reinforcements will come, etc. Her plan required everything to go right in order to pull it off and it didn't.
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Dec 18, 2017 21:16
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Dahbadu posted:Darth Vader, one of the most evil figures in galactic history. More like Luke: jeez, it's happening again, oh geez, I made this nice jedi school to make it right this time and it's all happening again, holy gently caress, what do I do? I could just end this all now. (he definitely would have killed himself after killing kylo ren taking the whole flawed jedi concept with him.)
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Dec 18, 2017 21:16
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Vernii posted:EDIT: I'm betting that if the character of Holdo wasn't a woman, the argument would be framed more along the lines of the arrogance of the officer class vs boots on the grounds types. Laura Dern is loving incredible in life and in all things and in TLJ so I'm glad we have Holdo and I would have loved strong textual evidence of Poe being a sexist; it would have been great, and it would have made Poe's relationship with Leia fascinating. As it stands, we get Poe as a staunch supporter of the monarchy by swearing fealty to Leia, but being apprehensive and distrusting of the merchant-rich class and the politician class. Poe only believes in divine rule.
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Dec 18, 2017 21:16
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Actually now I think about it there is a little bit of sexism from Poe when he says Holdo wasn’t what he expected based on what sounds like her being a big hero in some other battle
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Dec 18, 2017 21:19
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Dahbadu posted:Darth Vader, one of the most evil figures in galactic history. So did you just skip the part where Luke nearly kills Vader in anger or
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Dec 18, 2017 21:20
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Escobarbarian posted:Actually now I think about it there is a little bit of sexism from Poe when he says Holdo wasn’t what he expected based on what sounds like her being a big hero in some other battle I got the impression it was because she dresses and talks like a politician instead of an officer.
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Dec 18, 2017 21:20
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