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Cnut the Great posted:Yoda looked really weird and, you know, like a puppet, and it was honestly pretty distracting. I understand that a lot of people actually want him to transparently look like a puppet because they think Star Wars is supposed to be like The Muppets or something. We have to make up a word for this annoying tendency to impute motivations or irrationality on people's entirely subjective judgements. It's not a case of you vs. the crazies you know
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Dec 18, 2017 22:38
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Cnut the Great posted:How is Rey going to learn to be a full Jedi now? It's something that's supposed to take years of intense study, training, and hard work. Now there's no one left to teach her and all the texts are gone. But Rey doesn't need those because books are useless and ancient wisdom is retarded? The shot was as quick as can be, but she has the books, they're on the Falcon, and presumably Yoda burned the tree for Luke so Luke wouldn't found out she got them
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Dec 18, 2017 22:38
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Waffles Inc. posted:The shot was as quick as can be, but she has the books, they're on the Falcon, and presumably Yoda burned the tree for Luke so Luke wouldn't found out she got them He specifically says that Rey has everything she needs.
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Dec 18, 2017 22:42
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Cnut the Great posted:Yoda looked really weird and, you know, like a puppet, and it was honestly pretty distracting. I understand that a lot of people actually want him to transparently look like a puppet because they think Star Wars is supposed to be like The Muppets or something. Those monster nuns in Luke's rock village looked so much like muppets that I wondered if they were even CGI. Cnut the Great posted:That struck me as weirdly anti-intellectual, actually. Apparently the Jedi are all about literal book-burning now? Burn the Bible and the Koran and the Vedas, I guess, because they're boring and old? Just really weird. Yoda might agree with Luke that the "old ways" weren't working and mindlessly sticking to them for the sake of tradition led to a host of problems, which mirrors Kylo's rejection of the Sith religion and desire to create something new. Also she still has the books, and Yoda was probably aware.
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Dec 18, 2017 22:42
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ShineDog posted:He specifically says that Rey has everything she needs. Quite possibly the one and only time that Yoda is 100% literal when talking to Luke. There's nothing in there that Rey doesn't already have, cause she went back to her scavenger roots and scavenged what she needs to survive.
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Dec 18, 2017 22:54
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J_RBG posted:We have to make up a word for this annoying tendency to impute motivations or irrationality on people's entirely subjective judgements. It's not a case of you vs. the crazies you know I've heard people say they love the fact that he looks and moves like a puppet, because they find that sort of thing charming. But if that's not you, I'm not talking about you.  Waffles Inc. posted:The shot was as quick as can be, but she has the books, they're on the Falcon, and presumably Yoda burned the tree for Luke so Luke wouldn't found out she got them I did miss that. That's just incoherent. So Luke is a book-burner and he sits around and jokes with Ghost Yoda about it but really Ghost Yoda is just tricking Luke into thinking the books were burned instead of telling Luke that books are good, which they are, and so Luke is really still just an rear end in a top hat even though this is the moment when Luke is supposed to become not-an-rear end in a top hat again? And Rey knows everything she needs to know, except for what she obviously doesn't, which she needs to learn from the books Luke hates, and this whole faux-profound exchange basically actually didn't mean anything? And the tree burning down represents the wiping away of the past which Luke sought, but which doesn't actually doesn't happen since Rey still has the books? Or did I miss something else and this all really makes sense? jivjov posted:Quite possibly the one and only time that Yoda is 100% literal when talking to Luke. There's nothing in there that Rey doesn't already have, cause she went back to her scavenger roots and scavenged what she needs to survive. So basically the whole conversation is just Yoda lying to Luke because after all these years Luke's still a dumbass who has to be saved from himself by the dead teachers he already surpassed in ROTJ. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Dec 18, 2017 |
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Dec 18, 2017 22:54
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I'm pretty sure Yoda is literal all the time.
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Dec 18, 2017 22:58
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Cnut the Great posted:I did miss that. That's just incoherent. So Luke is a book-burner and he sits around and jokes with Ghost Yoda about it but really Ghost Yoda is just tricking Luke into thinking the books were burned instead of telling Luke that books are good, which they are, and so Luke is really still just an rear end in a top hat even though this is the moment when Luke is supposed to become not-an-rear end in a top hat again? And Rey knows everything she needs to know, except for what she obviously doesn't, which she needs to learn from the books Luke hates, and this whole faux-profound exchange basically actually didn't mean anything? And the tree burning down represents the wiping away of the past which Luke sought, but which doesn't actually doesn't happen since Rey still has the books? Or did I miss something else and this all really makes sense? If you missed something, I missed it as well. It's a very strange part of the film.
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Dec 18, 2017 23:02
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Cnut the Great posted:I've heard people say they love the fact that he looks and moves like a puppet, because they find that sort of thing charming. But if that's not you, I'm not talking about you. The idea is that Luke hasn't even read the books. He was holding on to them because of the idea of their importance, not because of what they actually mean and the information they contain. Rey, presumably, actually wants to glean knowledge from said books.
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Dec 18, 2017 23:03
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Luke basically became a Jedi master after a few uh...however long he was at Yoda's so, no one needs training.
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Dec 18, 2017 23:08
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Luke wants the Jedi teachings to be forgotten because of all the poo poo that Jedi did. After exiling himself wasn't enough, he contemplated the books so nobody could ever resurrect the Jedi. That contemplation was just like when he contemplated murdering his nephew to prevent the evil that he would do. You'll notice he hesitated. Could he have gone through with it? Then Yoda destroyed the tree, appearing to agree that the books are of no use at the present moment. The Force doesn't belong to the Jedi, after all; anything of value in those books are already known to those who listen to the Force. Luke didn't even read them, after all. It also had a hilarious double meaning that Luke was unaware of, which is that Rey stole the books.
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Dec 18, 2017 23:12
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jivjov posted:The idea is that Luke hasn't even read the books. He was holding on to them because of the idea of their importance, not because of what they actually mean and the information they contain. Rey, presumably, actually wants to glean knowledge from said books. That's not something that's really effectively communicated by the movie. And it's just a further erosion of Luke's character as, frankly, someone who never really learned what he was supposed to learn and whose death and removal from the equation is probably the best thing for the galaxy. Which is weird, and renders the original movies pointless and kind of hollow. Maybe Lucas was right and there really was no more story after I-VI, and so the only way to tell a new story was to completely negate the old one and start over again. I suspect there might have been another way, though. I think you could probably write a story where Luke has to step aside for the new generation which doesn't reflect poorly on the kind of person Luke Skywalker is. Which reflects the fact that he's grown and become better than the Jedi of old. Which is life-affirming instead of strangely depressing.
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Dec 18, 2017 23:13
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"It's time for the Jedi, to end."
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Dec 18, 2017 23:14
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CelticPredator posted:"It's time for the Jedi, to end." Yeah, except it's not, because what the Jedi represent is something good and noble and worth preserving: The idea that those who find themselves possessed of power have a responsibility to selflessly devote themselves to serving and protecting others, and maintaining the balance between good and evil, without attempting to assert their will on the universe, and letting people live freely to make their own choices. That's what it means to be a Jedi. The prequel Jedi failed to live up to those ideals, and the OT is about Luke reclaiming the true Jedi identity. To say that the Jedi should end is to say that Star Wars should end, which is an odd stance for the continuing Star Wars series to take.
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Dec 18, 2017 23:19
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I kind of wish they had made the relativistic speed time dilation a throw away line in that chase, it would have been obscure to the masses but would fill the plot hole. Most ships in the star wars universe never need to hit relativistic speed thanks to hyperdrives but special relativity still applies. Assuming a ship like that could approach physical light speed in an hour or two of constant thrust tracks with star wars magic engines. And, "Hey, we can't hyperdrive in front of them because that would cancel out our real physical velocity" tracks with how hyperdrives work. Makes the Kamikaze run work much better too, since you have a ship traveling at .999c suddenly cancelling out its momentum and slamming face first into a different ship, irregardless of whatever its speed in hyperspace is. Real life space science for you A 1kg brick travelling at .999c has the equivalent a 500 Megaton nuclear explosion. Now scale that up to the estimated 30 million tons (27 billion kg) of rebel flagship, and you've got 13.5 Peta-Tons (a billion billion) of TNT equivalent. If you bump the relative speed up by another .0009% then the energy triples. On the flip side, the first order could have made an Amazon next day order of a warehouse of ball bearings to hyperspace dump along the rebellion ships trajectory and watch them get shredded flying through it at lightspeed.
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Dec 18, 2017 23:19
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They really don't. The prequels you love so much pretty much show how flawed and garbage the Jedi actually are.
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Dec 18, 2017 23:19
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The Reddit r/movies Star Wars thread is a disaster-zone of saltiness. The portrayal of Luke's character was a perfect progression from the original trilogy. In the OT he was given an idealistic view of the Jedi from what Obi Wan and Yoda taught him and adopted their noble attitude, then subsequently dug into the history (watched episodes 1-3) and learned the Jedi Order he was led to idolise were pretty much just a cult whose hubris let Palpatine take over. His attempt to make something better was undermined by his mistake with Ren, which literally blew up in his face and helped the rise of the first order. Why should he champion the Jedi or himself when he doesn't believe in either by this point?
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Dec 18, 2017 23:20
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Cnut the Great posted:so Luke is really still just an rear end in a top hat even though this is the moment when Luke is supposed to become not-an-rear end in a top hat again?
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Dec 18, 2017 23:20
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CelticPredator posted:They really don't. The prequels you love so much pretty much show how flawed and garbage the Jedi actually are. That information is included in my post, sir. Try reading it again and then formulating a new response.
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Dec 18, 2017 23:21
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Cnut the Great posted:That's not something that's really effectively communicated by the movie. And it's just a further erosion of Luke's character as, frankly, someone who never really learned what he was supposed to learn and whose death and removal from the equation is probably the best thing for the galaxy. Which is weird, and renders the original movies pointless and kind of hollow. Given that lots of people understood what was being communicated, nah. Luke knows he was the New Hope, but as a Jedi Master helped to create a new Great Enemy. So he begins to conflate the wisdom of the Jedi with his own personal failings, forgetting that failing is natural and unavoidable. So ultimately he has to make amends with the people he's failed and show them the way forward. I mean, there's only multiple characters in this movie telling everyone to let go of the past. "Jedi masters" have never been infallible figures in Star Wars.
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Dec 18, 2017 23:22
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Ok. The Jedi are quite stinky.
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Dec 18, 2017 23:22
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Cnut the Great posted:Yeah, except it's not, because what the Jedi represent is something good and noble and worth preserving: The idea that those who find themselves possessed of power have a responsibility to selflessly devote themselves to serving and protecting others, and maintaining the balance between good and evil, without attempting to assert their will on the universe, and letting people live freely to make their own choices. That's what it means to be a Jedi. The prequel Jedi failed to live up to those ideals, and the OT is about Luke reclaiming the true Jedi identity. I'm totally with you on this take. The Yoda and Luke conversation is incredibly strange in light of Rey keeping the books. It's in many ways a very confused movie
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Dec 18, 2017 23:25
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Luke watched the Prequels, basically.
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Dec 18, 2017 23:28
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Mighty Steed posted:The Reddit r/movies Star Wars thread is a disaster-zone of saltiness. The Jedi's failure is implicit in the OT and in in their instructions to Luke to kill Darth Vader. Mace's attempted murder of Sidious in Episode III is the culmination and embodiment of all the Jedi's philosophical failures in those movies, and Luke almost making the same choice in ROTJ but then going another way represents him encountering those same temptations but then overcoming them. He then proclaims himself a Jedi, because in rejecting the temptations of power and evil, and by showing mercy and compassion to his enemy, that is what he has truly become. Everything that has come after in the ST is philosophically incoherent and represents a desire to continue a franchise by people who don't really understand it, more than it represents any real thematic progression. To say that the Jedi should end is philosophically repugnant but narratively expedient, if you're looking to court an audience which confuses moral nihilsm with moral depth.
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Dec 18, 2017 23:28
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Cnut the Great posted:To say that the Jedi should end is to say that Star Wars should end, which is an odd stance for the continuing Star Wars series to take. I don't think this is what the movie is saying. Luke Skywalker is not the last Jedi, after all.
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Dec 18, 2017 23:29
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Bongo Bill posted:Luke watched the Prequels, basically. Luke had a lot of questions about younglings and death sticks for Dad and Obi-Wan afterwards.
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Dec 18, 2017 23:30
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Waffles Inc. posted:I'm totally with you on this take. The Yoda and Luke conversation is incredibly strange in light of Rey keeping the books. Could say that Yoda is a... Puppet Master 
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Dec 18, 2017 23:31
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I think sometimes in films people often mistake the story of the film with the story of the characters. Luke's personal act is he wants to destroy the books and temple to end the Jedi forever. He hesitates and Yoda does it for him. He learns a personal lesson from this. Rey taking the book does not undermine Luke's personal story because he has no knowledge of it. Like there was a thing a while back how people got mad that they reveled who The Winter Soldier was early on in Cap 2, not considering that Captain America didn't know that, thus making the 'twist' important to him.
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Dec 18, 2017 23:31
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Bongo Bill posted:Luke watched the Prequels, basically. And then spent 30 years hating Star Wars and wanting no part of it. Makes you think.
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Dec 18, 2017 23:33
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cargohills posted:I don't think this is what the movie is saying. Luke Skywalker is not the last Jedi, after all. It seems to be what a lot of people are taking away from the movie and what they want, though. If anything, I think the saga will end with Rey proclaiming herself to have transcended the dogmatic strictures of the old way and to be walking a new, more enlightened path which accepts the realities of both the dark and the light and maintains a healthy balance between them...even though that's exactly what the Jedi are and what Luke accomplished in bringing them back in ROTJ. The problem is people don't think that's what the Jedi are. They think that the PT revealed what the Jedi actually are, and completely ignore that that trilogy was specifically constructed to complement the OT, and for a specific reason. Hint: It has a little something to do with the title "Return of the Jedi."
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Dec 18, 2017 23:34
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Cnut the Great posted:It seems to be what a lot of people are taking away from the movie and what they want, though. If anything, I think the saga will end with Rey proclaiming herself to have transcended the dogmatic strictures of the old way and to be walking a new, more enlightened path which accepts the realities of both the dark and the light and maintains a healthy balance between them...even though that's exactly what the Jedi are and what Luke accomplished in bringing them back in ROTJ. I think we'll have to wait and see what Episode IX does with it until we can actually know for sure what interpretation to take.
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Dec 18, 2017 23:37
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The thing is that Luke failed, in his own mind, to have transcended the ways of the old Jedi. He was sure that he could continue along that new and balanced path, but then he created Kylo Ren, and he conflated his own mistake with those of his teachers, so he gave up. He was wrong to do so. However, he did, in the end, pass on what he had learned: specifically, he passed on knowledge of the nature of the failures of all of Rey's predecessors.
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Dec 18, 2017 23:39
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The prequels are like the Crusades or something. Like, "Wow, it turns out Christians totally suck." Well, yeah, a lot of them have sucked throughout history. But that doesn't mean the ideas behind the religion are bad.
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Dec 18, 2017 23:50
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Cnut the Great posted:It seems to be what a lot of people are taking away from the movie and what they want, though. If anything, I think the saga will end with Rey proclaiming herself to have transcended the dogmatic strictures of the old way and to be walking a new, more enlightened path which accepts the realities of both the dark and the light and maintains a healthy balance between them...even though that's exactly what the Jedi are and what Luke accomplished in bringing them back in ROTJ. I haven't seen the movie yet so this is fun to read (I don't care about spoilers at all), but it sounds like the key line to think about is "I am a Jedi, like my father before me." But what kind of Jedi was Anakin?
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Dec 18, 2017 23:57
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Burning the tree with the books is a symbol of moving on from the past, but the physical books don't matter so much to that symbol. Rey may have the literal books, but she learned the lessons about not being dogmatic or thinking in a rose-tinted way about the past. In general, one of the themes of the film is that symbols are separate from what they symbolize. Like the symbol of the Jedi still inspires hope, even though the actual Jedi were arrogant failures. The symbol of the Rebellion still inspires hope, even though the actually Resistance/Rebels are almost all wiped out.
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Dec 19, 2017 00:03
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cargohills posted:I think we'll have to wait and see what Episode IX does with it until we can actually know for sure what interpretation to take. It seems we have to do an awful lot of waiting to figure out what any of these movie are actually trying to tell us. I'm pretty sure TLJ was supposed to make TFA make more sense, but it didn't. Now we apparently have to wait for the next one for this one or the one before it to make any sense. I get that each movie won't and can't make complete sense until the last movie comes out, but they should still make some sense. Each movie should function as an individual and complete work in addition to being part of a larger work. Otherwise they shouldn't be released as individual entries three years apart. A New Hope made sense: Don't think too much, trust your feelings. The Empire Strikes Back also made sense: You do still have to think sometimes, you can't blindly trust your feelings in every situation. Return of the Jedi made sense: Feel and think, but don't do either too much at the expense of the other. Each movie works and says something perfectly valid, but together they give you a more complete picture. But with this new series it's impossible to have any idea what's actually going on, except, presumably, in retrospect (we'll see about that). RBA Starblade posted:I haven't seen the movie yet so this is fun to read (I don't care about spoilers at all), but it sounds like the key line to think about is "I am a Jedi, like my father before me." But what kind of Jedi was Anakin? He's a Jedi who believed this: "Attachment is forbidden. Possession is forbidden. Compassion -- which I would define as…unconditional love -- is essential to a Jedi's life. So, you might say that we are encouraged to love." He was a person with the heart of a true Jedi, who was led astray by his own flaws, by the failings of his teachers, and by the seductions of the Emperor. Of course Luke knows his father was a failed Jedi, even before the prequels came out. That's obvious; he's lying on the floor right behind him. His assertion is one that is made in defiance of that fact. He's claiming the part of his father that was a true Jedi. That's the entire power of the line. He's redeeming the name of the ruined man on the floor. He's becoming what his father should have been, and also what his father actually was on some level. It's really not a super tricky line. It's the linchpin of the series.
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Dec 19, 2017 00:08
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Why do the OT characters need to be in the ST at all? Why are they all failures and gently caress ups? Han and Leia are awful parents and Han gets killed by his own son. Chewie gets to watch that! Luke does such a poor job of training said son he becomes a god drat Sith and joins another Empire. Speaking of which, they fought so hard to rid the galaxy of the Empire only for it to come back again. The end of RotJ was so happy. Those drat fools have no idea what they're in for
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Dec 19, 2017 00:09
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Because life isn't happy.
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Dec 19, 2017 00:12
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i heard kylo ren was shredded. that he had an eight pack. sorely disappointed to see otherwise
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Dec 19, 2017 00:15
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Cnut the Great posted:I'm pretty sure TLJ was supposed to make TFA make more sense, but it didn't. Now we apparently have to wait for the next one for this one or the one before it to make any sense. Seems more like TLJ either threw away or flipped around the parts of TFA that didn't make sense or weren't properly developed. And now the remaining space for next movie is left for something new, not explaining the old (like explaining Rey's background, or Snoke's).
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Dec 19, 2017 00:23
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