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Orcs and Ostriches posted:30% is actually more than 5%. yes, but it's not '100', which, you know, is apparently the magic point where he gets to cast a damage spell instead of cure 2
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Dec 19, 2017 00:52
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Protect is almost-useless tat, but the Healer cross-class list is basically four useful skills, three psuedo-useful skills, and three useless abilities (Rescue isn't useful, shut up ) so it's not like it's fighting that hard for it's slot. Protect might be the least useful of the three psuedo-useful ones mechanically, but it has the secondary effect of getting pugs to Shut the gently caress Up so just take it unless you're rolling with a team that'd be cool with seeing Eye for an Eye or Surecast instead.
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Dec 19, 2017 00:54
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snarky answer: it kind of doesn't, since tanks all pop their CDs at the beginning of the pull, in time to be mostly wasted as the mobs recover from holy chain-stuns real answer: the 25-30% cooldowns do work out to one fewer cure 2 per pull, which is extremely my jam, because that's a free holy right there. other real answer: on very large pulls, staggered cooldowns are nice just to make sure the tank doesn't vaporize before i have time to react with a pocket tetra / benison. e: last real answer: i take protect myself, but primarily out of a desire not to get into party chat arguments instead of any delusion that i'm helping.
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Dec 19, 2017 00:54
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A 50S RAYGUN posted:that argument doesn't make any sense, though. is vengeance useless? is shadow wall? By that logic you should stop playing this game altogether. And posting.
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Dec 19, 2017 00:54
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A 50S RAYGUN posted:yes, but it's not '100', which, you know, is apparently the magic point where he gets to cast a damage spell instead of cure 2 i don't know man, i'm trying to engage in good faith on this question of actual game mechanics. i've healed a fair few EXDRs in my time and i find myself making gcd-by-gcd decisions as to whether i can cast a dps spell or healing spell at the same subconscious level that people IRL use to avoid driving into a tree. i think a lot of healers make those similar decisions, some better than me, some worse than me. and i'm telling you, honestly, sincerely, not trying to score dumb internet points off you, that protect simply doesn't factor into those decisions. 5% gets swallowed by damage variance and instance speed. 25+% doesn't. i don't know how to explain that better except to actually somehow put you in my shoes when healing.
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Dec 19, 2017 00:58
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A 50S RAYGUN posted:yes, but it's not '100', which, you know, is apparently the magic point where he gets to cast a damage spell instead of cure 2 If a tank takes 4 * 15000 hit (or 8s of 7500dps, whatever works) with vengeance, that's 18000 HP mitigated, easily enough for a Cure 2 or so. With protect, that only reduces the damage by 3000, which is likely covered by overheal since the last time I healed, or isn't enough to worry about curing more. It would take 6 times longer for that protect mitigation to equal the vengeance mitigation. Maybe after 48 seconds we'd need the extra Cure 2, but it's likely already been dealt with through regular amounts of overheal from spells that would have been cast regardless.
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Dec 19, 2017 00:58
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This math is making me wonder how the AST regen vs. shield stacks up. I've been using Noct more lately and I like it, but it seems to be simultaneously more challenging (can't just regen up people periodically and forget they exist) and easier (I have way more GCDs for throwing blue stars at people).
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Dec 19, 2017 01:02
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Reiterpallasch posted:snarky answer: it kind of doesn't, since tanks all pop their CDs at the beginning of the pull, in time to be mostly wasted as the mobs recover from holy chain-stuns using most defensive cooldowns at (close) to full health is the technically 'optimal' way to use them, in that a 20-30 percent buff to your EHP is more valuable at 60k hp than at 20k hp. practically, it doesn't really matter, because most defensives will have worn off before you've gone through your newly-inflated EHP pool, but it's still the 'right' way to do it (beyond walking dead and holmgang, obviously, which are entirely useless if they're not used while close to dead)
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Dec 19, 2017 01:05
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I see, so the argument that healing casts are discrete and 5% mitigation is too low to flip a healing spell "slot" to a damage spell "slot" in the GCD rotation (I'm presuming in normal dungeons). I wasn't really aware that so much of the normal healing came from oGCDs at 60+. That allows me to conceptualize it better. Would you still want protect in higher tiers though?
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Dec 19, 2017 01:06
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ryde posted:I see, so the argument that healing casts are discrete and 5% mitigation is too low to flip a healing spell "slot" to a damage spell "slot" in the GCD rotation (I'm presuming in normal dungeons). I wasn't really aware that so much of the normal healing came from oGCDs at 60+. That allows me to conceptualize it better. Absolutely. Protect is 100% necessary in Ultimate Coil, where that 5% extra mitigation actually can make the difference between dying and not. I can't tell you how many tank busters I've survived with less than 5% of my HP. I wouldn't even dream of starting a Coil pull without protect.
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Dec 19, 2017 01:07
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Nessus posted:This math is making me wonder how the AST regen vs. shield stacks up. I've been using Noct more lately and I like it, but it seems to be simultaneously more challenging (can't just regen up people periodically and forget they exist) and easier (I have way more GCDs for throwing blue stars at people). Noct Bene is 805 potency of mitigation, if you include the entire shield. Diurnal Bene is 1040 potency of healing, if you have the entire hot (18s). Noct shielding has higher throughput, and I use Noct on big pulls because of that. That's only in the cases that you're spam healing a lot, since spamming Diurnal Bene just overwrites the hot. I like Diurnal's regen quite a bit more though, so if they're not going wall to wall I'll stick with that. Plus, it's nice to toss a regen on someone that took incidental damage, and they're not in threat of dieing right away. This isn't considering preshielding tank busters and party aoes. Mostly 4-man considerations. You often won't have the stance choice in 8-man stuff. Orcs and Ostriches fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Dec 19, 2017 |
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Dec 19, 2017 01:08
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How good would Protect have to be to overcome the drawback of it has no drawbacks and doesn't even take a role slot? 15% 20%?
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Dec 19, 2017 01:12
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Isn't protect some kind of weird interaction with physical/magical defense, and the 5% number people are throwing out just based on trial/error and current tank gear? it's kind of hard to reason about, that way.
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Dec 19, 2017 01:14
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protect is a 15 percent boost to def/mdef, which on tanks right now reasons out to about 5-6 percent mitigation. protect will actually get better as def/mdef on gear increases, until there's a stat squish or something.
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Dec 19, 2017 01:15
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Reiterpallasch posted:Isn't protect some kind of weird interaction with physical/magical defense, and the 5% number people are throwing out just based on trial/error and current tank gear? it's kind of hard to reason about, that way. Fister through up some pretty good numbers on how much a point of armour actually is worth, but I don't know if that's trial and error or has been discovered elsewhere. It comes down to a geared tank getting about 5% mitigation right now, while others (with less armour) get significantly less. You can see the armour increase on your character sheet when you get the spell though, so the bonus is easy to confirm.
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Dec 19, 2017 01:16
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hmm, it's honestly hard to say then--my gut instinct is that any buff to protect that would reduce the number of cure 2s i needed in a pull by 1 would be completely bonkers and out of line in a raid setting. i realize this sounds like me dodging the question, but my answer to your question basically boils down to "i don't know, sorry"
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Dec 19, 2017 01:19
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Noct Bene is 805 potency of mitigation, if you include the entire shield. Diurnal Bene is 1040 potency of healing, if you have the entire hot (18s).  Is it true that status can't be inflicted if the attack does 0 damage?
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Dec 19, 2017 01:20
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Nessus posted:Yeah, I've been using Noct in 4mans mostly to get a mouth-feel on how it works, so I will be less flaily in 8-mans. Eventually I will reach 8-man content which is not getting carried by guys hitting the roulette. Yeah, most if not all knockbacks, status, etc., can only affect you if it deals 1+ points of damage. Large shields can completely nullify a lot of that.
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Dec 19, 2017 01:23
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Yeah, most if not all knockbacks, status, etc., can only effect you if it deals 1+ points of damage. Large shields can completely nullify a lot of that. They've been getting smarter about this lately. The Kelpie's movement stuff in Skalla can only be ignored by abilities like Tempered Will, Surecast, Holmgang etc. because it doesn't deal any damage at all. But in general if a mechanic has a damage component on it if you prevent any damage from happening the mechanic also does not happen.
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Dec 19, 2017 01:26
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Literally all they need to do is remove Protect as a role action, increase the defense on all equipment by 15%, and rename Divine Benison to Protect (because apparently Protect is a quintessential part of Final Fantasy).
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Dec 19, 2017 01:31
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so are phoenix downs, and welp
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Dec 19, 2017 01:33
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Protect was a bad role action. They can't actually make it too strong while making it last 30 minutes which means it'll always maintain this annoying position of being something you should macro or change out at a later point. They should have made it white mage's 10% damage taken down skill, and taken ruin 2 from sch and made it a role action.
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Dec 19, 2017 01:33
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honestly, it might be even weirder to say that protect, a spell most final fantasy white mages learn at like level seven, doesn't get learned in XIV until the mid-60s.
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Dec 19, 2017 01:35
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PvP protect is cool, make that a real skill that white mages can use in real content
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Dec 19, 2017 01:36
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Divine Benison has a rad animation, but it's weird they made it instead of changing stoneskin which was very similar. As long as protect is just some maintenance action you cast at the start, it's going to be kinda dumb.
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Dec 19, 2017 01:36
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cheetah7071 posted:PvP protect is cool, make that a real skill that white mages can use in real content while we're at it just take diurnal ast out back, to a nice shady spot, and tell the kids that you sent it to a farm upstate where it would be happier
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Dec 19, 2017 01:38
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Reiterpallasch posted:while we're at it just take diurnal ast out back, to a nice shady spot, and tell the kids that you sent it to a farm upstate where it would be happier I'm curious what your thoughts are on that. Do you just think the class fits better as a shielder? I'm not sure if they'd ever do that, since it would make AST/SCH combos weird.
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Dec 19, 2017 01:41
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Noct Bene is 805 potency of mitigation, if you include the entire shield. Diurnal Bene is 1040 potency of healing, if you have the entire hot (18s). The main advantage of diurnal regens in 4-mans is that they can all be extended by up to 25 seconds with Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition (which also stuns!). Combining Aspected Benefic, Aspected Helios, and Collective Unconscious (you only need to hold the shield long enough for them to get the regen) is 330 healing potency every 3 seconds. That's a little less than a scholar's fairy heal with Rouse. Or, it's a free Benefic II every 6 seconds. With nocturnal shields, you have to keep spending GCDs on them to get even close to the same benefit out of them. Reiterpallasch posted:honestly, it might be even weirder to say that protect, a spell most final fantasy white mages learn at like level seven, doesn't get learned in XIV until the mid-60s. Solution: have them learn it earlier.
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Dec 19, 2017 01:45
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:I'm curious what your thoughts are on that. Do you just think the class fits better as a shielder? I'm not that smart. I was just making the joke that if you gave White Mages the ability to give a free 20% damage mitigation cooldown to tanks in PvE, you may as well just remove Diurnal AST from the game. The balance between Diurnal and Noct is always going to depend more on two things: the relative strength of WHM/SCH and the demand for those classes' specialties. If WHM or SCH are so overpowered you have to bring one, as was the case for most of 3.x, that pretty much settles the AST sect question by itself. If SCH is mandatory that probably sucks for Noct AST. If there's a high demand for mana-efficient throughput healing, which WHM is unmatched at because of Thin Air and Cure 3, Diurnal AST becomes kind of mediocre. Sometimes that's true and sometimes that isn't--because of Almagest and Literally Everything Bahamut, we live in a time where Cure 3 is very good. In A9S-A12S, the healing checks weren't nearly as steep and the hardest of them tended to be done with the party spread out of Cure 3 range, so Diurnal AST was basically WHM-with-bonus-cards. If there's a high demand for spammable party mitigation, which SCH can do better because of Sacred Soil's much lower cooldowns than Collective Unconsciousness, Noct AST winds up in trouble. Omega Savage right now doesn't call for that, but Bahamut does. Basically, the harder healing becomes, the more likely you are to want stability over the utility of cards. And for all of Earthly Star's power, AST right now is the healer most likely to fall apart when Ultimate Coil punches it in the dick. Fister Roboto posted:Solution: have them learn it earlier. ...ok, but now you're giving them lilies at level 7 too, which KIND OF SOUNDS LIKE a bigger deal Reiterpallasch fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Dec 19, 2017 |
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Dec 19, 2017 01:49
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maybe it's like scholar and they only get one lily at baby levels idk
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Dec 19, 2017 01:51
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Seems like there are very few buff and forget spells in 14 so I was happy to have anything to throw on people.
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Dec 19, 2017 01:51
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Rework the party stat bonuses so instead of getting an invisible MND bonus from partying with a healer you get Auto-Protect.
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Dec 19, 2017 01:57
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Reiterpallasch posted:...ok, but now you're giving them lilies at level 7 too, which KIND OF SOUNDS LIKE a bigger deal Give them Protect at 6, which is weaker and doesn't use lilies, and then Protect II at 60 which does.
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Dec 19, 2017 02:17
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Dec 19, 2017 02:28
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Give EXDR bosses tank busters. All of them.
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Dec 19, 2017 02:33
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MechaX posted:Give EXDR bosses tank busters. Most of them do have tank busters. What you really mean is 'give EXDR bosses tank busters that actually threaten me when I'm on my game.'
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Dec 19, 2017 02:39
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i dont wanna sound too elitest or whatever, but imo what distinguishes a "tankbuster" from a "big hit" is that it can do >100% of a tank's maximum hp without mitigation, at intended item level. which would be terrible to have in exdr.
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Dec 19, 2017 02:43
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That scorpion in Sohm Al hard is probably close to 100%. That's the biggest boss hit I can think of in a dungeon.
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Dec 19, 2017 03:08
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:That scorpion in Sohm Al hard is probably close to 100%. That's the biggest boss hit I can think of in a dungeon. Need to try unsyncing that one day to see if it's really a % of max hp like I think it is. It's not a static number but it is consistently hurty.
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Dec 19, 2017 03:16
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As I mostly queue as tank for anything not pre-made I view Protect being cast a sign from the healer; "We're good to start the run bud!" to me, without requiring any typing, else I'll just stand around awkwardly and waste a good 40sec of everyone's time as I take it that they healer either is not ready, maybe still loading in fully, waiting on CDs, IRL aggro, DCing or other. I don't care for having the buff or not in casual content but I don't want to run ahead until I'm sure at least the healer is good to go, or run off when I think they won't cast protect because "reasons" and then be annoyed with me as I missed the cast. A good idea could be to just open up with a macroed "I'm ready, no protect slotted, just go" or something if you don't want to slot it, since at least then we can begin the run with minimal time waste.
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Dec 19, 2017 03:24
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