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Yeah 110k sounds pretty fuckin good
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Dec 15, 2017 22:41
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B-Nasty posted:It sounds like the only thing left is choosing a Union Leader. Naturally, I'll fill that position, and my demands for salary are $650K/year. The Bachelor salaries are actually on the high end of what I've seen in the US Midwest, lol. Also, nobody cares if you don't have a degree or if you have a masters. I've never seen it affect salary.
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Dec 15, 2017 22:47
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LLSix posted:The Bachelor salaries are actually on the high end of what I've seen in the US Midwest, lol. Also, nobody cares if you don't have a degree or if you have a masters. I've never seen it affect salary.
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Dec 15, 2017 22:49
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B-Nasty posted:It sounds like the only thing left is choosing a Union Leader. Naturally, I'll fill that position, and my demands for salary are $650K/year. Acceptable, but the union head must be able to implement FizzBuzz in one of the following ways: 1. In Common Lisp using an extensible (defmacro) 2. In Perl using an inscrutable one-liner 3. In C++ using template metaprogramming.
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Dec 16, 2017 00:15
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Che Delilas posted:At least if we talk about unions, people will have an outside chance of using "Right to Work" correctly. That's the opposite of at-will right? I've had conversations with college educated people who believe this. 
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Dec 17, 2017 02:10
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KernelSlanders posted:That's the opposite of at-will right? Right to Be Cheated and Screwed, more like.
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Dec 18, 2017 14:23
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Pollyanna posted:Right to Be Cheated and Screwed, more like. FYGM is the acronym for that?
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Dec 19, 2017 03:18
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Sooo! The last time I posted here I was ecstatic because I got an offer with a small startup and I someone (I think Keetron?) posted some words of wisdom/warning about what it would be like. They were super spot on. I was told when I accepted the offer that the company dev team was in crunch because they have a 1.0 release at the end of this year. I'm currently working on average 11-12 hours M-F. My boss is working even more. I tried to negotiate when I got the offer (cause duh, you should always, right?) which was quickly shot down but whatever, I didn't plan on staying with the job forever. Thus began my 900 mile move to my new job.My GPS in my phone stopped working, I got stuck in hell traffic, and overall it was stressful as gently caress, but whatever, I'm a dev now! First day I get there a little late, cause of aforementioned GPS not working and I've been living in the town for all of three days. Second day, boss calls me in his office. Starts a big giant spiel about a person that had been there before that didn't work out (he's only ever referred to as the Graduate) and the big reason was he was very arrogant and was constantly trying to do stuff in the newest, hottest way rather than sticking with consistent methods. Big crux of the conversation was my boss being worried about me, because there is "a fine line between confidence and arrogance" and he wasn't worried about me until I dared to negotiate salary and then showed up a few minutes past 8:00 a.m. He reiterates how much of a chance they are taking on me and that he hoped he wouldn't be wrong about where I fell on the confidence/arrogance scale. I get called in again a week later for being too gregarious, but the big thing of that week was my boss going off on socialism and liberal values. I had made the mistake of casually mentioning I fall more on the left side of the scale, and he decided to educate me on who exactly pays all the taxes, and how all but the top 20% were takers. In front of the whole team, just a big long rant on this. I tried to not engage, as he kept needling me, but he just kept getting more and more riled up. The conversation ended with him ranting about how all women, no matter what, would try to get the maximum amount of alimony they can squeeze out of you. Being the only women in the team, it was a great moment. As time continues, I learn how to mainly handle it. Sometimes he would find a mistake and spend a very long time going over exactly how I messed up, the general principles of thoroughness and the importance of checking every facet all the time, all in front of all the team. Learned super quick to just let it happen and not try to correct or address it, cause that makes him super annoyed. And now this week. I've been there since the middle of October, and boss asks to take me out for coffee to chat, before we do our daily scrum. He asks me how I'm enjoying the team (I am very much, the work and my coworkers are great), and how I feel about things. I say my general stuff about enjoying my work, and then he starts in on how I'm not improving fast enough, that I'm not committed enough to learning outside of work, and that if I want to move at the pace of my career that he feels I want, I need to show/learn/do more. He tells me that they are paying me "more than you normally would for someone of your experience" (I took a paycut for this job btw and I'm under what's listed in Glassdoor for the area) and that compared to the rest of the team, my efficiency ratio of pay/work is not good. He also says that I'm lacking in self confidence when it comes to addressing stuff. So! It's been a whirlwind.
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Dec 19, 2017 03:55
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I mean he might be right about your shortcomings, but gently caress that guy.
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Dec 19, 2017 04:09
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Dec 19, 2017 04:10
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I seriously doubt that rear end in a top hat is correct about any supposed shortcomings; recommend
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Dec 19, 2017 04:14
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Shirec posted:The conversation ended with him ranting about how all women, no matter what, would try to get the maximum amount of alimony they can squeeze out of you. Being the only women in the team, it was a great moment. This is super hosed up. There's a lot of not-great stuff in your post, but this is a special kind of awful and I'm sorry it happened to you. You should devote as much time as you can to job hunting. I know it's going to be very difficult while working 50-60 hour weeks, but it doesn't sound like things are going to get better. Shirec posted:Big crux of the conversation was my boss being worried about me, because there is "a fine line between confidence and arrogance"... He reiterates how much of a chance they are taking on me and that he hoped he wouldn't be wrong about where I fell on the confidence/arrogance scale. This is classical abusive behavior. Telling you not to be confident and then dinging you for not being confident enough. There's probably a lot of ways you could be better as a programmer. But that's to be expected since you are still fairly new to it. After almost a decade I've still got a ways to improve. That in no way excuses or justifies this dude's behavior. LLSix fucked around with this message at 04:21 on Dec 19, 2017 |
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Dec 19, 2017 04:15
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Oh God I skimmed over the alimony part. I can't even describe how much I want that guy to get hosed.
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Dec 19, 2017 04:19
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Jesus Christ this is get-a-lawyer level bullshit.
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Dec 19, 2017 04:29
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Thermopyle posted:Oh God I skimmed over the alimony part. The craziest thing is, I did too when it was happening because it was somewhere mixed in with also talking about how his sister never keeps her legs closed and that's why she has a bunch of kids with different dads. Also hating the poors. LLSix posted:This is super hosed up. There's a lot of not-great stuff in your post, but this is a special kind of awful and I'm sorry it happened to you. My friends have been telling me that, that a lot of what he's doing is very classic gaslighting stuff, and switching between caring mentor boss and all this stuff I do bad/wrong. It's been really weird/awful because I've been in abusive relationships before, and you would think I would know better. I was really sold when I met him because he is also from a non-traditional background to get into programming and went on and on about wanting to give people like him a chance to get into the industry. But then he also goes on these big rants about how he could get so many more of us if he just went with an Indian team and we really have to prove our worth. I totally know I have a lot to learn! I've already gotten way better at programming since I started working (2 official months now of being an actual developer), but yeah, I'm really just in this poo poo situation right now  I am going to work on job hunting once the new year hits. I moved up here partially because I'm way closer to Chicago and now I can job hunt there way more effectively. Sorry if this is rambly, I'm exhausted.
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Dec 19, 2017 04:44
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This truly reads like a horror story, Shirec. I feel really bad for you and that really really sucks that you have to deal with that. It makes me worried about the only interview/verbal offer I've been able to get recently. Like you, I also lack professional experience but have a plethora of amateur experience. It's a 99% black hole with regard to job applications to change careers to doing programming for a living, but the only interview and subsequent verbal offer has been for a salary much lower than the average for that area according to Glassdoor. Been trying to stick to the numbers but they say they aren't sure if I'm experienced enough for that salary level and offer to re-negotiate the salary after a probationary period. I figure it makes sense to be clear about how I'll be evaluated when that time comes, but I'm not sure what to expect for such a thing (assuming that I do accept their offer). This blog post (http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/) sort of encourages us not to accept anything "below average" and so when I read your story here it only makes me fearful that I might be eventually be faced with a similar nightmare scenario.
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Dec 19, 2017 05:10
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Shirec posted:I was really sold when I met him because he is also from a non-traditional background to get into programming and went on and on about wanting to give people like him a chance to get into the industry. Could this guy prey on insecurities any harder? A "non-traditional" background isn't something someone has to take a chance on, it's literally "hm this person has experience in other areas" vs. "this person has experience in no areas".
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Dec 19, 2017 05:15
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Thermopyle posted:I mean he might be right about your shortcomings How does this ever help?
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Dec 19, 2017 05:58
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Yeah just going to go out on a limb here and say don't believe a word of what that jackass says. If you want honest feedback of areas for improvement, look for it elsewhere.
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Dec 19, 2017 06:03
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Shirec posted:The craziest thing is, I did too when it was happening because it was somewhere mixed in with also talking about how his sister never keeps her legs closed and that's why she has a bunch of kids with different dads. Also hating the poors. You should post your resume here and/or PM it to me so we can help you tweak it. When you do start applying, keep in mind that software hiring practices are very arbitrary so you just need to apply as many places as you can. Also, contact anyone you know who works in other companies to see if they have openings. Pretty much everyone I've met is super happy to get requests like that.
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Dec 19, 2017 06:24
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Dude sounds like an insecure pissbaby who should be prevented from ever having any power over anybody. What an rear end in a top hat.
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Dec 19, 2017 06:41
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Also, please don't blame yourself for not seeing it while he was in full-on performance mode and not yet in a position of direct authority over you. People who do what this guy does are incredibly good at presenting what they think others want to see, because they can't go around being overt sociopaths in public and still get what they want (in my experience, what they want is to have power over, and acknowledgement by, as many other human beings as possible). These people aren't fixable, the only way to deal with this is to keep your head down as much as possible while you work on getting a job where they treat you like a person.
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Dec 19, 2017 07:22
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Love Stole the Day posted:This truly reads like a horror story, Shirec. I feel really bad for you and that really really sucks that you have to deal with that. Hello I am also a dude who had a plethora of amateur experience and zero real experience. I also didn't go to college at all, much less for programming. Don't accept anything below average. I had to send out many hundreds of applications, it took many months. It was an absolute black hole where I sent out so many applications that when I got a response I didn't even remember applying to the company. I got an average salary. This is absolutely worth the wait, and keep in mind that if people are looking to pay you less than average they are probably going to treat you less than average. A company that is going to pay you less than average because they can't afford more is probably bad at managing their company, which means long hours for you while they desperately try to create revenue. It really cannot be stated enough. You have an important, valuable skill. Everyone needs a programmer now. And I know you look at someone saying this with their nice job while you're counting down the days until you get someone willing to just give you a chance, thinking to yourself that it's really easy to say that from our side of the problem, but it's just not worth it. What you're gearing up to do is worth paying you appropriately for. Eventually, someone will give you your shot and treat you like a person while they do it. It just might take awhile. But wait for it, it'll happen.
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Dec 19, 2017 08:18
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Thanks y’all, it really helps put it in perspective with everyone’s reaction  LLSix posted:You should post your resume here and/or PM it to me so we can help you tweak it. When you do start applying, keep in mind that software hiring practices are very arbitrary so you just need to apply as many places as you can. Also, contact anyone you know who works in other companies to see if they have openings. Pretty much everyone I've met is super happy to get requests like that. I’ll def take you up on this when I have some time to update my resume. I was really hoping I could hold out 6 months or so, or it would get better, but I know that’s a foolish hope Che Delilas posted:Also, please don't blame yourself for not seeing it while he was in full-on performance mode and not yet in a position of direct authority over you. People who do what this guy does are incredibly good at presenting what they think others want to see, because they can't go around being overt sociopaths in public and still get what they want (in my experience, what they want is to have power over, and acknowledgement by, as many other human beings as possible). Thank you, I really needed to hear that. This has been a real mind gently caress overall
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Dec 19, 2017 15:26
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Pollyanna posted:How does this ever help? How does it help what?
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Dec 19, 2017 15:49
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As a fun extra, I was sitting in the office and we’re running low on water for our big cooler. I said something about being able to get it but that I can’t lift the water jugs. If you’ve read my other posts, you can guess what happened. Convo started where “This is why women only want equality until they don’t. If you really wanted it, you’d learn to operate within your constraints”
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Dec 19, 2017 17:02
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Shirec posted:As a fun extra, I was sitting in the office and we’re running low on water for our big cooler. I said something about being able to get it but that I can’t lift the water jugs. I assume you then took out a knife and tapped the water jug as if it were a keg?
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Dec 19, 2017 17:11
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Shirec posted:“This is why women only want equality until they don’t. If you really wanted it, you’d learn to operate within your constraints” By magically being able to lift the water jug? Does this person also look down at a person who's in a wheelchair and complaining about the lack of access in a building and comment, "Heh, guess you didn't want to be treated just like a normal person after all!" (Probably!) I used to get annoyed at my last job because I sat closest to the cooler and people were constantly asking me to replace the jug, but I was annoyed at the other strong-enough, tall people who could have done it when they filled their mug, but didn't, not at the people who couldn't lift the jugs or were too short to do it comfortably. And certainly not because they were  ! (Four of the women in the office got me a card to thank me for doing it all the time, because I groused about it too much. That was a good wake-up call.)
CPColin fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Dec 19, 2017 |
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Dec 19, 2017 17:14
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CPColin posted:Dude sounds like an insecure pissbaby who should be prevented from ever having any power over anybody. What an rear end in a top hat. I endorse this evaluation and would like to add a sincere wish that he ends up in a burn unit someday. Shirec posted:As a fun extra, I was sitting in the office and we’re running low on water for our big cooler. I said something about being able to get it but that I can’t lift the water jugs. KernelSlanders posted:Jesus Christ this is get-a-lawyer level bullshit. KernelSlanders posted:Jesus Christ this is get-a-lawyer level bullshit. KernelSlanders posted:Jesus Christ this is get-a-lawyer level bullshit.
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Dec 19, 2017 17:41
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What does this guy do all day where he's in a position to bitch about women and poors every time the opportunity arises. Sounds like my boss at my university OIT internship, he'd been there for like 30 years and was stuck in the 80s. playground tough fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Dec 19, 2017 |
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Dec 19, 2017 18:04
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playground tough posted:What does this guy do all day where he's in a position to bitch about women and poors every time the opportunity arises. We’re all sitting in a conference room around a table and coding all day. The atmosphere is usually relatively genial and conversational. Sometimes the chatter trips a landmine that leads to awful opinion sharing time. This time it was needing more water, which led to the women remark and something about how our generation only does stuff when it’s right down to the wire. Also I’ve been discouraged from participating in these conversations as often, because I’m not experienced/competent enough to get my work done at the efficiency he wants and talk at the same time.
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Dec 19, 2017 18:09
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Shirec posted:We’re all sitting in a conference room around a table and coding all day. man even leaving aside your boss being an abusive rear end in a top hat and a misogynist, this does not sound like a great setup
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Dec 19, 2017 18:32
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The other devs just sit quietly or do they join in? I'm guessing nobody stands up to him?
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Dec 19, 2017 18:34
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:man even leaving aside your boss being an abusive rear end in a top hat and a misogynist, this does not sound like a great setup We originally were in our own offices (some shared with two desks) but about a month ago he decided to move us all out to the table so we could let each other know about changes to the master and collaborate better. They’re all working in one branch and I have my own for my work. rt4 posted:The other devs just sit quietly or do they join in? I'm guessing nobody stands up to him? Sit quietly yeah. This time was a bit different because one of them was like oh jeeze for the women comment. They don’t join in at all, they’ve been really good coworkers.
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Dec 19, 2017 18:39
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Shirec posted:We’re all sitting in a conference room around a table and coding all day. The atmosphere is usually relatively genial and conversational. Sometimes the chatter trips a landmine that leads to awful opinion sharing time. This time it was needing more water, which led to the women remark and something about how our generation only does stuff when it’s right down to the wire. Oops - caught my edit! My boss wasn't as overtly disgusting, but often felt the need to interject his opinion as if it were the highest word in all the land. This dude straight up yelled at me a couple of times when I would present a design idea that used modern web tech, which was fair since my suggestions were overkill, but the direction I was prodded in by him was often an even worse design decision guided by nothing but the desire to keep their monthly google cloud bill as low as possible(literally around $10 a month it was insane). So basically there wasn't much work for me to do and the atmosphere this guy created made me not want to go to work anyways. If anything I learned a lot about people, authority, and awful software design at that job. Sorry you have to deal with that bullshit, especially after having moved to a new city for the position. I'm not in a position to give any career advice but I hope you're able to find a healthy solution to your situation, or at least a way to cope with that guy. Hopefully your coworkers understand and are on your side.
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Dec 19, 2017 18:40
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Shirec posted:Sit quietly yeah. This time was a bit different because one of them was like oh jeeze for the women comment. They don’t join in at all, they’ve been really good coworkers. Sitting quietly is implied endorsement for people like your boss. He’s just going to assume that everyone agrees with him and he’s just the one that is brave enough to speak up.
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Dec 19, 2017 18:46
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The Fool posted:Sitting quietly is implied endorsement for people like your boss. He’s just going to assume that everyone agrees with him and he’s just the one that is brave enough to speak up. They could all be in equally bad situations as OP. Clearly no one can be happy being ordered out of their desks and slaving away at a single conference table. OP, you should all be conspiring together to find new jobs and leave at the same time. Make sure to film the ensuring explosion and post online.
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Dec 19, 2017 18:49
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Skandranon posted:They could all be in equally bad situations as OP. Clearly no one can be happy being ordered out of their desks and slaving away at a single conference table. OP, you should all be conspiring together to find new jobs and leave at the same time. Make sure to film the ensuring explosion and post online. Someone near OP hire all these people stat so I can see this video.
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Dec 19, 2017 18:50
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Shirec posted:... he decided to move us all out to the table so we could let each other know about changes to the master and collaborate better. They’re all working in one branch...  I like how this "problem" is also solved by barely taking advantage of any vaguely modern source control. Shirec posted:Thank you, I really needed to hear that. This has been a real mind gently caress overall I worked for someone like this. Told many stories about him in these threads, but the most succinct summary of what kind of a prick he was is that he bragged about having been a high school bully (and he never grew out of that, he's still a high school bully in his late 40s). Dealing with him changed my personality in a bad way and resulted in a significant period of unemployment while I put myself back together. If you're feeling lovely and abused, you aren't overreacting. The day I put in my notice (I bothered to give notice at all because I liked my co-workers) was such a beautiful, uplifting day, even though I had weeks to go. Look forward to that.
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Dec 19, 2017 20:11
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from experience i can confirm that however exciting the lifestyle looks or sounds from the outside, "startup" the vast majority of the time simply means "lovely small business"
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Dec 20, 2017 01:06
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