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I don't agree with so many of the removals in the game but I'm still enjoying the game I also play offline so I have old versions to play. Still haven't played hell crawl but maybe tnight...
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Dec 18, 2017 22:32
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tweet my meat posted:I would probably laugh at goons too with how hyperbolic and heated this thread always gets whenever something gets removed. "The devs literally do not want the game to be fun" is an idea that gets tossed around a whole lot in this thread and it's pretty silly. Get one paper cut and nobody will take you seriously when you complain how much it hurts. Crawl is death by a thousand cuts, with the torturers laughing each time one is given.
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Dec 18, 2017 22:34
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Much like in America the devs are catering to the top 1%
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Dec 18, 2017 22:35
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tweet my meat posted:I read those devlogs and it sounds like they're figuring out a new way to get mutations. I'd be fine with the change if that turns out to be at least somewhat reliable, I just hope they don't drag their feet implementing it now that there's no way to roll the dice. I get why the change was made and I like the idea of consolidating all the different food types, but I wish they had had a replacement ready before they removed the only consistent source of mutations. They specifically mention that any replacement wouldn't be as common as purple chunks because ???? Again, purple chunk eating was never the optimal choice so them being common wasn't an issue. It was a risky gamble that players took because it was fun. Putting in another source of mutation roulette would be good but if they make it rare then it misses the fun of purple chunks, even if the results are usually better. Also that will rely on the devs actually putting in effort to make something new which is substantially harder than just removing stuff so who knows when it will happen. Regardless, if they were gonna make this change they should of done it when the replacement was finished. They never do though. quote:I would probably laugh at goons too with how hyperbolic and heated this thread always gets whenever something gets removed. "The devs literally do not want the game to be fun" is an idea that gets tossed around a whole lot in this thread and it's pretty silly. Its almost like when you continue making decisions that people dislike you burn up whatever good will you had with a community.
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Dec 18, 2017 22:48
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I know for a fact there are people out there who think eating purple chunks was optimal if you had mutation potions to quaff afterwards
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Dec 18, 2017 22:49
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tweet my meat posted:"The devs literally do not want the game to be fun" is an idea that gets tossed around a whole lot in this thread and it's pretty silly. This is not totally accurate but it's also not a totally ridiculous conclusion to reach if you've been paying attention the last few years. Why do just goons notice this? Users on the Tavern are the 1% who are supporting these changes, reddit users are the lowest common denominator, 4chan users make the lowest common denominator look unreachably elite. I don't doubt the current devs want to make a good game, but the ones driving the changes we complain about appear uninterested in what the majority of the player base considers fun, and their own definition of the word as it applies the their game is extremely narrow. You need devs like this so your game is a not a goddamn mess but you also need some Yoko Taro so your game has a soul. Whatever the soul of crawl was, the removal of purple chunks is a strong indication it's been forgotten and discarded.
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Dec 18, 2017 22:55
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tweet my meat posted:I would probably laugh at goons too with how hyperbolic and heated this thread always gets whenever something gets removed. "The devs literally do not want the game to be fun" is an idea that gets tossed around a whole lot in this thread and it's pretty silly. Purple chunks add mutations, and so do potions of mutation, so clearly purple chunks need to be removed. TRJ has more than one strategy you can use to beat it? That's bad, make sure players are forced into the one strategy of hitting it a lot and making him spawn lots of jellies because that's the Intended Fight, and we can't have people figuring out clever ways of skipping what we intended. People figured out ways to shorten tomb? That's bad for the same reason TRJ having alternate strategies was bad, people must go through mummy highway every time because that's the Intended Experience. People could use Zin to ignore hell effects? That's bad because hell effects are part of the Intended Hell Experience, so let's nerf that enough that Zin vs TSO is less of a meaningful choice for extended. Even the ones that made sense in a vaccuum(Charms is too powerful, so let's nerf/remove a few Charms spells) often had knock-on effects that punished previously viable strategies and builds. The rmsl removal made it much scarier to play a caster, especially one of an armor-slot-restricted race, for example. Not impossible, but much harder. e: TRJ is not Jiyva itself, derp. Haifisch fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Dec 18, 2017 |
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Dec 18, 2017 22:56
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Muts are good there should be titles for having enough muts. If you are a deep elf it should be Sludge Elf.
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Dec 18, 2017 23:35
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My hot take: you're a dumb idiot if you played mutation roulette with purple chunks and the current potion setup is vastly superior The only problem with mutations is there needs to be more "interesting" ones, that fall within being not-good but also not game-breakingly bad like teleportitis or zerkeritis, that force you to play in interesting ways to keep along with the good ones; not with how you get them
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Dec 19, 2017 00:52
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When you kill a mutagenic enemy like a sky beast or an ugly thing, it should leave a mutagenic cloud. There's your time-sensitive 'should i do it?' choice, plus maybe you can hang around in the cloud for a longer time to try getting a bigger set of muts Plus now there's a way you can gently caress up when you kill things and oh poo poo to get away from this fight I have to walk through mutagens because i hosed up
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Dec 19, 2017 01:05
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I am a dumb idiot who played mutation roulette and I ate every purple chunk as it dropped. I'm gonna miss being a dumb idiot. Also the mutagenic cloud left behind from purple chunk enemies is a cool idea, I'd support that the most out of the possible replacements.
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Dec 19, 2017 01:48
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pathetic little tramp posted:When you kill a mutagenic enemy like a sky beast or an ugly thing, it should leave a mutagenic cloud. Replace Malmutate with a cloud-ring attack like the Ophan have. Qazlal makes you immune to mutagenic clouds also. (I felt like it steps on Jiyva's toes to only be immune to the bad effects) Speleothing fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Dec 19, 2017 |
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Dec 19, 2017 01:49
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Rename unified rations to chokos
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Dec 19, 2017 01:56
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pathetic little tramp posted:When you kill a mutagenic enemy like a sky beast or an ugly thing, it should leave a mutagenic cloud. Mutagenic clouds are weighted heavily towards giving bad mutations. This change would require either making a second mutagenic cloud type (they won't do this) or redoing every vault that uses mutagenic clouds (won't do this either). Pacra posted:My hot take: you're a dumb idiot if you played mutation roulette with purple chunks and the current potion setup is vastly superior The current setup is literally the same as the old one though. Purple chunks just don't exist anymore. If you thought eating them was always dumb that's fine, but sometimes doing dumb stuff can be fun. The point is nobody's play experience was being damage by their existence.
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Dec 19, 2017 01:58
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actually, if they're going to unify rations, they should keep the random descriptors so your ration might be a piece of beef jerky, a handful of raspberries, a slice of broccoli pizza, some bread, a choko (quite bland), etc
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Dec 19, 2017 02:01
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Samog posted:actually, if they're going to unify rations, they should keep the random descriptors so your ration might be a piece of beef jerky, a handful of raspberries, a slice of broccoli pizza, some bread, a choko (quite bland), etc Random purple chunk thrown in for spice, totally change up food gameplay.
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Dec 19, 2017 02:14
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hi DCSS dev irc chat, this is gamer tote up a bags. i played this game for years (since like 0.10) and it was really cool, but now it feels like a husk of it's former self with little to no character to it. you took a solid game that owns and turned it into the HOTS of roguelikes. but i guess im owned for being sad about a game i liked turning to poo poo. shout out for making the game and updating it tho, y'all dedicated.
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Dec 19, 2017 02:32
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hi DCSS dev irc chat, bring back crown of eternal torment that is all that ain't all, but hell might as well keep the gimmick up
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Dec 19, 2017 02:46
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pathetic little tramp posted:When you kill a mutagenic enemy like a sky beast or an ugly thing, it should leave a mutagenic cloud. This seems more like Nethack's design philosophy than Crawl's. It's "did you know you can intentionally stand in mutagenic clouds to re-roll your muts?" instead of a few clear "do you want to mutate yourself? (Y/n)" checks.
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Dec 19, 2017 02:55
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Microcline posted:This seems more like Nethack's design philosophy than Crawl's. It's "did you know you can intentionally stand in mutagenic clouds to re-roll your muts?" instead of a few clear "do you want to mutate yourself? (Y/n)" checks. This is correct sentiment. While there's plenty of design decisions to be concerned about, whining about purple mutation chunk eating is Bad Goon Thread Talking more about current trunk WJC play style is Good Goon Thread
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Dec 19, 2017 04:07
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revert WJC to the original floating weapon design, but instead of weapons, it's purple chunks
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Dec 19, 2017 04:10
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Pacra posted:This is correct sentiment.
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Dec 19, 2017 04:11
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IronicDongz posted:I guess people just shouldn't complain about things they dislike so goon thread police Pacra doesn't tell them off  
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Dec 19, 2017 04:40
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tweet my meat posted:I would probably laugh at goons too with how hyperbolic and heated this thread always gets whenever something gets removed. "The devs literally do not want the game to be fun" is an idea that gets tossed around a whole lot in this thread and it's pretty silly. I agree it's absurd to say the devs don't want the game to be fun. But there's a more nuanced take on this statement that I think people in this thread are trying (and perhaps failing) to express, which is that the devs are trying to make the game fun for themselves and for a small core of players who are extremely devoted to competitive or optimal play and share similar view points. And not only is the devs' concept of "fun" very different from many of the players here, the means they use to express it come across as almost completely alien. So the devs are at least not trying to make the game for SA. If we follow the argument further, SA's picture of fun is more in line with the broader community of people interested in a game like Crawl and many of the poster's here have no weaker design or aesthetic sensibilities than the posters in the Tavern or the dev team. So something like removing purple chunks is trying to make the game more fun, but not succeeding, because the current dev team has a weak sense of the term. Of course, you could easily argue that SA is no closer to actual "fun" than the devs and is no better representation of a broader audience of players than the Tavern. I would dispute that, but I think it would be interesting and productive to talk about what exactly we think the "soul" of Crawl is, what makes the game fun compared to, say, Caves of Qud, and what, in the abstract, is causing the devs to get the idea wrong. I think a smart analysis would reveal that the differences between what SA wants and the devs want aren't that huge and that changes like removing purple chunks, while bad and ominous regarding the game's future, aren't apocalyptic and don't reveal that "Crawl is dead". ---- Another good exercise would be for us to say, what would we want to bring back and change if SA made its own fork? What would the "soul" of GoonCrawl be and how would it be different from DCSS and Hellcrawl? Do we actually have a meaningful and cohesive definition of fun that can be shown to be distinct from those games? If we do, I don't think it would be impossible for us to fork the game.
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Dec 19, 2017 05:58
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I don't think there's any universal agreement amongst us about what needs to be added to the game. The main agreement on SA seems to be the that constant removal of content in pursuit of purity in recent versions is the issue. So I guess Gooncrawl would just be rolling back all those changes while maintaining any new content and QOL improvements recent versions have added. Lemme put it this way; back when I started playing this game, anytime I saw a new version I would wonder "oh what cool stuff have they added now?". Now my first thought is about what has been changed or removed. The dev's general vision of the game has shifted away from adding more content too removing or altering existing features to "improve" the game. Regardless, Gooncrawl would take substantial work that I don't think anyone here really wants to bother with. I mean I certainly wouldn't be able to contribute any programming work towards it.
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Dec 19, 2017 06:07
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Internet Kraken posted:I don't think there's any universal agreement amongst us about what needs to be added to the game. The main agreement on SA seems to be the that constant removal of content in pursuit of purity in recent versions is the issue. So I guess Gooncrawl would just be rolling back all those changes while maintaining any new content and QOL improvements recent versions have added. But certainly some things should be removed from the game! What about inventory weight requirements, item destruction and yellow chunks? I know some people liked those things, but I think everyone is mostly glad they're gone. And a lot of people like hellcrawl because it's removing things people don't like rather than removing things people do. So what's the difference between the things we like and the things we don't? Internet Kraken posted:Lemme put it this way; back when I started playing this game, anytime I saw a new version I would wonder "oh what cool stuff have they added now?". Now my first thought is about what has been changed or removed. The dev's general vision of the game has shifted away from adding more content too removing or altering existing features to "improve" the game. I completely agree with this. Several years ago someone, I think it was Pleasing Fungus, added a power boost to Dragon's Call to Dragon form. Later, it was taken out for the reason that it was obscure, spoilery and no one used it anyway. But it was a nice bit of flavor that gave a boost to extremely niche builds and had little impact on the game but was removed for the sake of removal. Years ago, I followed development because I was excited about seeing things like that added. Now I mostly don't follow it because I'm constantly disappointed with things like that being removed. So I want to see cool things being put in the game again. I have some ideas of the kind of things I'd like to be put in and I'm sure other posters here do too, but what are they, exactly? Internet Kraken posted:Regardless, Gooncrawl would take substantial work that I don't think anyone here really wants to bother with. I mean I certainly wouldn't be able to contribute any programming work towards it. Hellmonk made hellcrawl by himself starting from very weak compsci skills. I've messed around with adding species, spells, god and backgrounds on my own and I'm pretty sure I could change a good bit of stuff about the game, though I bet the code would be a mess and it would be slow going at first. There are posters here with much better skill than I who have already contributed significantly to the game. But the main point of the question isn't to actually start Gooncrawl, but rather to find out if goons actually have constructive, specific things to say about the game or are only interested in complaining.
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Dec 19, 2017 06:38
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Pacra posted:This is correct sentiment. the qq emoticon
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Dec 19, 2017 06:42
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wow. hey remember that time they removed amulets of rmut saying theyd get around to fixing malmut later?
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Dec 19, 2017 06:53
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Tollymain posted:wow. A rework of malmute sounds dangerously close to an addition to the game. You are on the verge of heresy!
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Dec 19, 2017 07:00
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Heithinn Grasida posted:But the main point of the question isn't to actually start Gooncrawl, but rather to find out if goons actually have constructive, specific things to say about the game or are only interested in complaining. I've tried to provide lots of constructive criticism about the game. I tried to explain my thoughts about basically every major change, good or bad. I foolishly thought that as a player that has played for a long time and gotten 15 runes with every god and species, my feedback might even be valued. I do know a lot about the game. It used to be my favorite game period. But what's the point in putting tons of effort into feedback that just gets ignored? The devs don't seem to care. They've never shown any indication of caring about feedback provided here and are actively mocking us for protesting recent changes. When I posted on the Tavern my feedback was also ignored, because it turns out the things i really care about (reforming Hell to be less lovely, the value of High Elves) isn't a priority of the devs at all. It feels like the devs will do what they want regardless of what I or anyone else outside their clique says. Which you can't fault them too much for, given the game is their project, but why should I keep putting effort into deep criticism and evaluation of the game if the devs don't event want to read it? Why seriously spitball potential features that won't ever be implemented?
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Dec 19, 2017 07:06
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tweet my meat posted:"The devs literally do not want the game to be fun" is an idea that gets tossed around a whole lot in this thread and it's pretty silly. commit posted:I for one will miss eating sky beast and ugly thing corpses, but it is for the best.
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Dec 19, 2017 07:07
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Internet Kraken posted:I've tried to provide lots of constructive criticism about the game. I tried to explain my thoughts about basically every major change, good or bad. I foolishly thought that as a player that has played for a long time and gotten 15 runes with every god and species, my feedback might even be valued. I do know a lot about the game. It used to be my favorite game period.  I typed out a big old post but you put it much more eloquently.
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Dec 19, 2017 07:09
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I was going to type something up, but this is pretty much better than anything else. I'm just going to spend the next tournament seeing how many 15-rune runs I can do as a Vine Stalker Short Blade user of Gozag to see if they'll kneecap any part of that combo because it can steamroll post-game content once it gets working.
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Dec 19, 2017 07:19
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Internet Kraken posted:I've tried to provide lots of constructive criticism about the game. I tried to explain my thoughts about basically every major change, good or bad. I foolishly thought that as a player that has played for a long time and gotten 15 runes with every god and species, my feedback might even be valued. I do know a lot about the game. It used to be my favorite game period. There used to be devs who participated in this thread and made changes based on suggestions in here, but we drove them out with constant vapid negativity and shitposting. That said, I agree that there's not much hope for the current dev team as is. But I think if we wrote changes that we'd like to see, there's a good chance they'd work with us to get them committed. That's exactly what they did with Gnolls and WJC and the feedback and contributions of some of the current devs are a big part of why those are so fun. And if enough people push a competing vision of the game by actually participating in the process, that is chatting with the devs on their terms, producing ideas and content and building enthusiasm, I think we could push development in a better direction. If it turns out the development process is now too closed and corrosive to be admissive of ideas too different from the usual tavern crowd, and some people can actually establish a coherent vision of what's wrong with development now and how to fix it, then maybe it's time for Gooncrawl.
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Dec 19, 2017 08:07
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Heithinn Grasida posted:There used to be devs who participated in this thread and made changes based on suggestions in here, but we drove them out with constant vapid negativity and shitposting. Nope. This has come up before, here's what I said last time; Internet Kraken posted:What the hell are you talking about? Skull.gif and Pleasing Fungus posted in this thread for tons of versions and never had a problem with the atmosphere here. Dpeg is the one who sauntered in, acted like an rear end in a top hat, and then somehow it was all our fault when people responded in kind. Any discussion he created was pointless because he never listened to anything said here. I can't think of a single change that seems like it was influenced by feedback here in recent versions. The devs that were frequent posters in this thread don't do anything with Crawl anymore. This thread was fine with devs for most of development and only started complaining about them when Dpeg started posting. This is because Dpeg was a huge rear end in a top hat that ignored everything people told him and wasn't actually interested in anything we had to say. The thread coexisted with devs for most of Crawl's lifespan without issue. Its not SA's fault that the shifting dev team changed to one that isn't interested in anything we have to say. But then again, I don't think they are interested in anything anyone has to say outside of a select few. Heithinn Grasida posted:That said, I agree that there's not much hope for the current dev team as is. But I think if we wrote changes that we'd like to see, there's a good chance they'd work with us to get them committed. That's exactly what they did with Gnolls and WJC and the feedback and contributions of some of the current devs are a big part of why those are so fun. And if enough people push a competing vision of the game by actually participating in the process, that is chatting with the devs on their terms, producing ideas and content and building enthusiasm, I think we could push development in a better direction. Well you can go ahead and try that but I don't think you're gonna find many volunteers. Remember that SteelNeuron worked on WJC for over a year, put it through constant changes at the whims of the devs, and eventually the devs decided it wasn't any good and they were gonna remove it from trunk. I'm glad that they eventually changed their minds, but the process of contributing content as SteelNeuron described it is not something I would ever want to participate in even if I could. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 08:15 on Dec 19, 2017 |
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Dec 19, 2017 08:12
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What gets me is that reworked potions of mutation are in no way redundant with purple chunks, so the commit removing purple chunks represents not only a bizarre and pointless self-abnegation (I'll miss purple chunks... but nothing can be done... farewell...) but also a total misunderstanding of how the relevant game elements work.
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Dec 19, 2017 08:21
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Internet Kraken posted:Nope. This has come up before, here's what I said last time; And yet they still read the thread. I can't speak for the devs who left or who are lurking here. I don't want to put words in their mouths. But I recall Pleasing Fungus complaining several times about the atmosphere in here. And it's absolutely gotten worse. I remember when I first started reading this thread, lots of top players and devs participated frequently. When some rear end in a top hat jumped in to say this game has the worst devs, they'd get dogpiled. Now if someone suggests the devs don't suck, they get dogpiled. Maybe Gammafunk would still post here if people weren't so lovely all the time. If you actually read the dev irc log, he actually said that it's a good point that removing random mutation as a player choice isn't good and is looking into a replacement for purple chunks. And Advil, another dev, quoted the suggestion to use mutagenic fog on killing certain monsters as a way to opt into the mutation system as a good idea. So gently caress off with this poo poo about how nobody listens to us or is interested in what people here have to say. Nobody wants to interact with shitposters or sift through a wall of whining for the good ideas buried in it. Internet Kraken posted:Well you can go ahead and try that but I don't think you're gonna find many volunteers. Remember that SteelNeuron worked on WJC for over a year, put it through constant changes at the whims of the devs, and eventually the devs decided it wasn't any good and they were gonna remove it from trunk. I'm glad that they eventually changed their minds, but the process of contributing content as SteelNeuron described it is not something I would ever want to participate in even if I could. Again, I have no desire to speak for SteelNeuron and maybe he can come in and comment on the process himself. I know he was quite unhappy about it at some points. But the fact is that WJC is way better than the first implementation I played. The version in trunk now, with whirlwind pin and slow wall jumping, is also much better than the first version committed to trunk. The same is true of Gnolls. I'm not trying to white knight the devs, I also don't like the way things are going, but this notion that any kind of communication of good ideas is impossible is absurd.
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Dec 19, 2017 08:34
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I'm not gonna tell people to be positive and happy about the game when the direction its going in isn't one they are happy with. Frankly, I never tried to antagonize the devs when they posted here, and acting like anyone that criticized their decisions was shitposting or whining is a good way to piss them off. I tried my hardest to explain my viewpoint to Dpeg a lot, but he never showed any indication of caring. He would come in, say his piece, and then ignore points raised against it. He also generally acted like an rear end to people so of course some posters started lashing out at him. Its not fair to lump in everyone with a few vocal detractors, which is what you and the devs have done. Of course now the atmosphere here is generally lovely but what do you expect when people have barely anything to look forward to and feel like there feedback will never be acknowledged? The two big things people actually care about in 0.21 aren't even being done by the usual dev team. Frankly this whole conversation is tiring. You're not saying anything I haven't heard and responded too before. I genuinely don't think the devs are gonna listen to anything said here. I'd like to be wrong about that but I've seen nothing to indicate otherwise. So unless things change I'm not gonna bother writing up huge effortposts about my thoughts on Crawl unless I really feel like it. Like I could go into painstaking detail about why exactly removing purple chunks is stupid but a brief (and snarky I'll admit) explanation is all I felt it deserves. I feel giving more is unnecessary and unwanted by both sides of this conversation. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 08:46 on Dec 19, 2017 |
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Dec 19, 2017 08:44
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People started complaining that the devs suck around the time the devs started sucking, it's not rocket science
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Dec 19, 2017 10:03
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It's hard to post positive thoughts about changes when you don't enjoy any of the changes being made and then when the devs act like absolute butt-heads about disagreements over game design/criticism, and laugh at people with different opinions of them for caring about things in the game that they don't care about, it makes me not even want to look for a silver lining
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Dec 19, 2017 10:20
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