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Karl Barks posted:the same is true of norway and finland That's also a fair comparison to make imo.
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Dec 18, 2017 22:22
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:That's also a fair comparison to make imo. As leftcoms say, communist states are just social democracy at gunpoint.
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Dec 18, 2017 22:38
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:That's also a fair comparison to make imo. didn't expect you to agree with that tbh
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Dec 18, 2017 22:40
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don't show this to baloogan it's our secret 
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Dec 18, 2017 22:43
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So aliens are real; explains a lot of my dreams and nightmares growing up. Edit: wrong thread but aliens most definitely have an advanced form of communism and will teach us the ways.
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Dec 18, 2017 22:51
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:don't show this to baloogan I wonder what the Soviet Union would have been like if Zhukov succeeded Stalin.
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Dec 18, 2017 23:01
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:I wonder what the Soviet Union would have been like if Zhukov succeeded Stalin. biiig mistake riding that white horse in the victory procession
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Dec 18, 2017 23:11
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:I wonder what the Soviet Union would have been like if Zhukov succeeded Stalin. the actually existing USSR had a huge contradiction with its military. liberals don't believe you when you tell them this, but the USSR was (in a certain sense) deeply anti-militarist, which is one reason why zhukov got shitcanned. there were ferocious debates all the way into the 80s about the role of professional officers even determining their own requirements. the U.S., on the other hand, just went ahead and put ike in charge. american politicians defer to generals all the time (at least regarding military matters), much more than soviet politicians did. at the same time the USSR was trying to outcompete the west by maintaining a massive military. the soviet experience in ww2 really shaped that. so the big question is whether zhukov would've tried to truly break the armed forces from the party or not, and "professionalize" it. makes me wonder about how china handled conscription during the same period (today it's officially the law but not practiced as far as i know). 
BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Dec 18, 2017 |
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Dec 18, 2017 23:46
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NNick posted:So aliens are real; explains a lot of my dreams and nightmares growing up. Finally someone telling truth to power in this thread Pener Kropoopkin posted:Well you can argue that China is in fact attempting to do this, but that's also not an interesting discussion that's already repeated over and over again ITT. Couldn't you also argue the opposite? That China was 'more' socialist in the past and is potentially now backsliding under the new status quo? I don't think this would be a terribly different situation to Perestroika, just without the regime collapse
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Dec 19, 2017 00:01
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Dreddout posted:Couldn't you also argue the opposite? That's what arguing means, yes.
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Dec 19, 2017 00:01
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:That's what arguing means, yes. 
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Dec 19, 2017 00:03
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https://twitter.com/sadbukharin/status/942804558715260928
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Dec 19, 2017 00:10
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Dec 19, 2017 00:13
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lol
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Dec 19, 2017 00:24
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https://twitter.com/mmalloyboy/status/942900855115620352
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Dec 19, 2017 01:03
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https://twitter.com/soft_btw/status/941980216016211968
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Dec 19, 2017 03:11
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:As leftcoms say,
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Dec 19, 2017 05:33
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Dec 19, 2017 05:42
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Yossarian-22 posted:cuba...benevolent capitalism. lol
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Dec 19, 2017 06:55
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and seriously if you want to have this discussion for the millionth time please click the lil question mark under my redtext $10 av and enjoy it at least thrice
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Dec 19, 2017 06:56
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jETJt_zbnKk&t=492s
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Dec 19, 2017 12:10
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that episode of captain pronin seems weird
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Dec 19, 2017 12:15
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It's now counter-revolutionary to not like Phil Greaves https://twitter.com/sadbukharin/status/942975376254554112
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Dec 19, 2017 20:29
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when the state owns most of the means of production and not the working class,  but in a more egalitarian, less dynamic formeven che guevara himself decried how much cuba simply became a proxy for soviet imperialism and remained overly relient on exporting sugar, just that the resulting revenue was owned by the state and reinvested in social democratic programs. there is a lot of pressure on developing countries to compete in the international market so ultimately no "socialist" country in isolation can live up to the term trots may be weird pro-pedo newspaper salesmen but they're correct about the necessity for global revolution
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Dec 19, 2017 21:37
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Dec 19, 2017 23:29
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cuba even has markets/commodity exchange 
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Dec 19, 2017 23:42
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ah the old "cuba was a sugar colony" routine. remind me how deliberately buying cuba's most abundant crop at much higher than market prices makes the ussr imperialist also please cite the bit where che guevara says as much. you're full of poo poo R. Guyovich fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Dec 20, 2017 |
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Dec 20, 2017 02:26
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we're also back to this bullshit separation between socialist states and the working class. what exactly do you think communist parties do yossarian. plug their ears and sing "la la la" when people bring up problems they're facing?
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Dec 20, 2017 02:36
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excuse me, tankie, but do the workers own the means of production? do they get to write their name on the grain destroying machines they toil at all day at work and take them home every night? no? not communist, that's capitalist.
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Dec 20, 2017 02:52
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personally, I will never forgive the Cuban Revolution for not ushering in full communism on earth in a single instant, and instead choosing to be constrained by the reality of its material situation.
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Dec 20, 2017 02:55
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for a really long time during the insurrection, Castro insisted he wasn't communist.
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Dec 20, 2017 03:10
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the soviet union had a system of wage labor but offset that by paying managers a fraction of what they'd get in the west and paying out bonuses based on productivity but because the wage form persisted they were capitalists, or something.Pener Kropoopkin posted:for a really long time during the insurrection, Castro insisted he wasn't communist. yeah, he wanted help from the us. so?
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Dec 20, 2017 03:28
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R. Guyovich posted:yeah, he wanted help from the us. so? it's just dumb to bring up that Cuba isn't Full Communist like it's a gotcha is all
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Dec 20, 2017 03:30
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:for a really long time during the insurrection, Castro insisted he wasn't communist. Yeah, but Raul was an open socialist for a long time, and Fidel organized with him a lot before 1953. So it's it's safe to assume Fidel denied being a communist as a pragmatic move during the revolution, rather than adopting the ideology after the fact. People overlook the Cuban Revolution was largely a popular front of different ideologies, rather than a specifically socialist revolution. At least initially. So it makes sense that anyone who was interested in leading it would be vague about their beliefs. R. Guyovich posted:yeah, he wanted help from the us. so? I think it was more about him not wanting to piss America off too much, until he could secure Soviet protection
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Dec 20, 2017 03:34
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:it's just dumb to bring up that Cuba isn't Full Communist like it's a gotcha is all oh, sure. they pull this poo poo with all socialist states though. some of the particulars may (rarely) change but the song stays the same Dreddout posted:I think it was more about him not wanting to piss America off too much, until he could secure Soviet protection maybe but if eisenhower had met with him and heard him out it's possible he wouldn't have rushed to the soviets so quickly. eisenhower was a rabid anti-communist so in all likelihood it wouldn't have made much difference one last thing re: china 
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Dec 20, 2017 03:39
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R. Guyovich posted:also please cite the bit where che guevara says as much. you're full of poo poo i called yoss on that exact same claim, practically word for word ("even che guevara himself!") almost exactly a year ago speaking of things beloved revolutionaries said: Yossarian-22 posted:trots may be weird pro-pedo newspaper salesmen but they're correct about the necessity for global revolution Che Guevara posted:I believe the fundamental things which Trotsky based himself on were erroneous, and that his later behaviour was wrong and even obscure in the final period. The Trotskyists have contributed nothing to the revolutionary movement anywhere and where they did most, which was in Peru, they ultimately failed because their methods were bad. That comrade Hugo Blanco, personally a man of great sacrifice, based [his position] on a set of erroneous ideas and will necessarily fail.
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Dec 20, 2017 06:01
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:It's now counter-revolutionary to not like Phil Greaves comrade phil was always the guiding light of revolution
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Dec 20, 2017 07:43
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R. Guyovich posted:oh, sure. they pull this poo poo with all socialist states though. some of the particulars may (rarely) change but the song stays the same  also: collective bargaining is illegal in china
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Dec 20, 2017 07:47
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rudatron posted:also: collective bargaining is illegal in china no it isn't R. Guyovich fucked around with this message at 08:02 on Dec 20, 2017 |
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Dec 20, 2017 07:57
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union activity outside the official party union is illegal, and the official unions are on the side of the chinese government, ie management, so most strikes you see in China are actually organized independently by the workers themselves, which they're breaking the law by doing
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Dec 20, 2017 08:19
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