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My primary complaint about TLJ is too much awkward and forced attempts at humor, which failed miserably. Other than that, I think it's a decent Star Wars film.
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Dec 20, 2017 00:31
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CODChimera posted:Nope it's a mess. 
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Dec 20, 2017 00:33
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CODChimera posted:Nope it's a mess. your trolling will be your downfall, noob. die by my blade
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Dec 20, 2017 00:46
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loving Star Wars nerds.
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Dec 20, 2017 00:51
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viral spiral posted:My primary complaint about TLJ is too much awkward and forced attempts at humor, which failed miserably. Other than that, I think it's a decent Star Wars film. I don't think they were awkward or forced, but there were some times when they didn't fit thematically with what we were supposed to feel. Poe/Hux was the best example of this. I found the interaction completely believable (seriously, look at some of the stories of how opposing soldiers try to gently caress with each other, or the Navy pilot who skywrote a dick and balls for fun -- I can totally see Poe doing this) but it was jarring because it was the wrong point to insert comic relief. The movie had just started, and everything was set up to be tense. That's a filmmaking error, not a problem with the content itself.
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Dec 20, 2017 00:51
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euphronius posted:Also the wonderful milking scene! The alien bird was so happy to be ethically used !! i thought it was more annoyed than anything, the way it looks at rey was all "can you believe this guy?"
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Dec 20, 2017 00:57
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PT6A posted:I don't think they were awkward or forced, but there were some times when they didn't fit thematically with what we were supposed to feel. This whole sequence got pretty big groans in my theater. It had to be a decision forced by Disney more so than Johnson.
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Dec 20, 2017 01:01
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The director has said that scene is at the start to let the audience know the level of comedy to expect.
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Dec 20, 2017 01:06
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viral spiral posted:My primary complaint about TLJ is too much awkward and forced attempts at humor, which failed miserably. Other than that, I think it's a decent Star Wars film. I agree, but I'd add two pieces of dialog outside the humor: Leia and Holdo discussing Poe, and later on, Leia saying, "We have everyone we need. Both seemed bizarrely callous.
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Dec 20, 2017 01:10
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Kylo's treatment of Hux is a continuation of their dynamic from TFA. Unlike, say, Grand Moff Tarkin, Hux has always been a glorified lackey and Kylo loves putting him in his place.
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Dec 20, 2017 01:29
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TLJ was good, sorry nerds
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Dec 20, 2017 01:37
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quote not edit blah
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Dec 20, 2017 01:38
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hiddenriverninja posted:IIRC, the line is "We have everything we need," which is meant to be hopeful and to comfort Rey despite the dire circumstances the Resistance is in. edit:my bad
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Dec 20, 2017 01:39
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Saw the movie again, and knowing what to expect tonally I was able to get into it a lot more at the beginning and enjoyed that conversation you're all talking about in particular. Also the rest of the movie is still fantastic and it's probably going to end up near the top of my list of Star Warses. Also this audience knew how to cheer at the big reveal at the end. 
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Dec 20, 2017 01:45
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Lord Hydronium posted:Saw the movie again, and knowing what to expect tonally I was able to get into it a lot more at the beginning and enjoyed that conversation you're all talking about in particular. Also the rest of the movie is still fantastic and it's probably going to end up near the top of my list of Star Warses. You mean the death of Admiral Ackbar didn't send you into a petition signing rage?!
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Dec 20, 2017 01:47
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So many of the characters in the ST are just wasted or under-utilized or whatever. This thread has already pretty much reached consensus about how Finn was wasted, but the completely bizarre re-apperance of Maz also just served to highlight how no one behind these movies seems to know what the hell to do with these characters. She randomly disappeared from TFA after her final scenes were cut, and now she shows up in that random hologram, eschewing all of the pseudo/caffeine-free Yoda mysticism she had in TFA? It makes no sense. Further, with Rey, it seems like her arc pretty much ends after the showdown in the Emperor's throne room. Worse still, her whole reason for being there, which is supposed to echo Luke's premature journey to Bespin is entirely undercut by the fact that it tries to smoosh ESB and ROTJ together. Why does Rey even give a poo poo about Kylo, and why does she feel compelled to turn him? Luke doesn't go to Bespin to turn Vader, he goes to save his friends. Rey goes to meet Kylo because she somehow feels drawn to this murderous psychopath because he keeps rudely ForceTiming her? Or wait, she's actually just being Sith mindtricked by Snoke that whole time? In which case it just reinforces the criticism of her from TFA that she seems to lack agency and is constantly being pulled forward by mechanisms beyond her control. I really enjoyed the general conceit of Kylo and Rey's conversations in the beginning of the movie, but I'm still just not sure what draws her to him. "He kidnapped me, attempted to mindrape me, murdered my surrogate father, nearly murdered my adopted brother, flung me against a tree, and then tried to kill me, but I'm oddly interested in becoming friends with him...?" Also not enough has been made of the fact that the #1 reason these sequels seem to lack a certain something is because John Williams has sadly run out of team in his twilight years. Go back and listen to the ESB score to see just how incredibly evocative and dynamic it is. The ST scores so far sound a lot more like his Harry Potter work than Star Wars. It's serviceable, and the leitmotifs for Rey and Kylo are pretty good, but it lacks the dynamism and whimsy of the originals. Jewmanji fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Dec 20, 2017 |
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Dec 20, 2017 01:58
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May the Force Be With You is hands down my favorite piece of all time and I will be happy every time it pops up on screen. It's perfect.
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Dec 20, 2017 02:02
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That one comedy remix of the prequels is really good. I forget what it's called but c3po is evil and hilarious.
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Dec 20, 2017 02:03
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Another critical component of the OT (and to a lesser degree the PT) that really feels notably absent in TFA and TLJ is the wonderful settings. ESB in particular has incredible sets throughout the film. Echo base, Dagobah, the carbon freezing chamber and the air shaft are totally iconic. Between TFA and TLJ there's very little that feels uniquely imaginative in a way that isn't a tired riff on an existing set from the OT. Canto Bight was pretty interesting, but the pace of it (and its general uselessness to the overall plot) made it feels somewhat frenetic and unmemorable. The characters move through the casino floor, but nothing much happens in that space, and the jail is completely vapid. The costuming on the guards was pretty good though.
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Dec 20, 2017 02:11
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euphronius posted:That one comedy remix of the prequels is really good. I forget what it's called but c3po is evil and hilarious. Backstroke of the West?
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Dec 20, 2017 02:17
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business hammocks posted:Backstroke of the West? I'm guessing Jedi Party. "Mr Qui-Gon sir what are midichlorians?" "...it's heroin."
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Dec 20, 2017 02:29
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Jewmanji posted:Further, with Rey, it seems like her arc pretty much ends after the showdown in the Emperor's throne room. Worse still, her whole reason for being there, which is supposed to echo Luke's premature journey to Bespin is entirely undercut by the fact that it tries to smoosh ESB and ROTJ together. Why does Rey even give a poo poo about Kylo, and why does she feel compelled to turn him? Luke doesn't go to Bespin to turn Vader, he goes to save his friends. Rey goes to meet Kylo because she somehow feels drawn to this murderous psychopath because he keeps rudely ForceTiming her? Or wait, she's actually just being Sith mindtricked by Snoke that whole time? In which case it just reinforces the criticism of her from TFA that she seems to lack agency and is constantly being pulled forward by mechanisms beyond her control. I really enjoyed the general conceit of Kylo and Rey's conversations in the beginning of the movie, but I'm still just not sure what draws her to him. "He kidnapped me, attempted to mindrape me, murdered my surrogate father, nearly murdered my adopted brother, flung me against a tree, and then tried to kill me, but I'm oddly interested in becoming friends with him...?" He's willing to train her; he told her as much at the end of the last film. She reasons that she just needs to get him on her side so he can do that. I think her turning herself in to Kylo is meant to echo Luke turning himself over to Vader in ROTJ, not going to Bespin.
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Dec 20, 2017 02:41
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"The Force isn't about lifting rocks" Rey lifts rocks to save her friends There are a lot of cool things in this movie.
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Dec 20, 2017 02:42
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PostNouveau posted:He's willing to train her; he told her as much at the end of the last film. She reasons that she just needs to get him on her side so he can do that. Yes, that makes sense from Kylo's perspective. It's an adolescent perspective. But why would Rey want Ben's training? She defeated him and demonstrated that she is already more adept than he is, and now she's palling around with his former master. So far as she's concerned, Ben doesn't really have anything to teach her. It strains credulity to imagine that she'd put aside all the hosed up stuff he's done to her and her friends for the sake maybe levelling up. And you're correct that it's meant to echo ROTJ, but it's ESB and ROTJ both, so the message gets totally muddled.
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Dec 20, 2017 02:55
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Jewmanji posted:This thread has already pretty much reached consensus about how Finn was wasted, but the completely bizarre re-apperance of Maz also just served to highlight how no one behind these movies seems to know what the hell to do with these characters. She randomly disappeared from TFA after her final scenes were cut, and now she shows up in that random hologram, eschewing all of the pseudo/caffeine-free Yoda mysticism she had in TFA? She is the worst.
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Dec 20, 2017 03:05
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I just don't want Finn sidelined in the next movie. Hopefully he's not just involved in the B-plot
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Dec 20, 2017 03:11
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Jewmanji posted:Yes, that makes sense from Kylo's perspective. It's an adolescent perspective. But why would Rey want Ben's training? She defeated him and demonstrated that she is already more adept than he is, and now she's palling around with his former master. So far as she's concerned, Ben doesn't really have anything to teach her. It strains credulity to imagine that she'd put aside all the hosed up stuff he's done to her and her friends for the sake maybe levelling up. And you're correct that it's meant to echo ROTJ, but it's ESB and ROTJ both, so the message gets totally muddled. I don't think it's clear at all that she's more adept than him, and he's definitely got a lot of years of training up on her. Luke is very clear he won't train her, so he's a no-go. Also her plan would end the war. She's pretty sure she'll succeed, and if Kylo helps her kill Snoke and joins Team Good Guys, the war is over.
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Dec 20, 2017 03:14
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Jewmanji posted:Yes, that makes sense from Kylo's perspective. It's an adolescent perspective. But why would Rey want Ben's training? She defeated him and demonstrated that she is already more adept than he is, and now she's palling around with his former master. So far as she's concerned, Ben doesn't really have anything to teach her. It strains credulity to imagine that she'd put aside all the hosed up stuff he's done to her and her friends for the sake maybe levelling up. And you're correct that it's meant to echo ROTJ, but it's ESB and ROTJ both, so the message gets totally muddled. It's less that she wants him to train her, and more that she wants him to train with her. Or even just that she wants to feel connected to another person, and they were already connecting through the Force- She looked to Han and Luke as father figures, but for her Kylo is more of an older brother figure to her. And she may care about her friends in the Rebellion / Resistance, but they don't really get what she's going through.
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Dec 20, 2017 03:17
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Jewmanji posted:Further, with Rey, it seems like her arc pretty much ends after the showdown in the Emperor's throne room. Worse still, her whole reason for being there, which is supposed to echo Luke's premature journey to Bespin is entirely undercut by the fact that it tries to smoosh ESB and ROTJ together. Why does Rey even give a poo poo about Kylo, and why does she feel compelled to turn him? Luke doesn't go to Bespin to turn Vader, he goes to save his friends. Rey goes to meet Kylo because she somehow feels drawn to this murderous psychopath because he keeps rudely ForceTiming her? Or wait, she's actually just being Sith mindtricked by Snoke that whole time? In which case it just reinforces the criticism of her from TFA that she seems to lack agency and is constantly being pulled forward by mechanisms beyond her control. I really enjoyed the general conceit of Kylo and Rey's conversations in the beginning of the movie, but I'm still just not sure what draws her to him. "He kidnapped me, attempted to mindrape me, murdered my surrogate father, nearly murdered my adopted brother, flung me against a tree, and then tried to kill me, but I'm oddly interested in becoming friends with him...?" IMO I think her reasoning went something like "Luke's a lost cause, I can't convince him - but maybe I *can* convince Kylo. I've felt a connection to him, there has to be a reason we keep ForceTiming, I'm certain he's not totally lost yet, and if I convince him to turn, we can win this war and I can save my friends." Like that general theme throughout the film of the main ST protagonists being so deadset on proactive action with the best of intentions, only to have it backfire.
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Dec 20, 2017 03:22
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Did the Wookiepedia "breast" page update with an entry about TLJ yet?
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Dec 20, 2017 03:25
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UmOk posted:"The Force isn't about lifting rocks" I liked how amused and resigned she was during the "Of course I have to lift rocks..." line. 
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Dec 20, 2017 03:46
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Jewmanji posted:Yes, that makes sense from Kylo's perspective. It's an adolescent perspective. But why would Rey want Ben's training? She defeated him and demonstrated that she is already more adept than he is, and now she's palling around with his former master. So far as she's concerned, Ben doesn't really have anything to teach her. It strains credulity to imagine that she'd put aside all the hosed up stuff he's done to her and her friends for the sake maybe levelling up. And you're correct that it's meant to echo ROTJ, but it's ESB and ROTJ both, so the message gets totally muddled. The training was never a priority for Rey. She believed that she could save Ben and in doing so would turn the tide against the First Order. She implores Luke to join her because the resistance needs him in the war effort but he refuses. Rey figures since Luke won't help the resistance, maybe Ben can. Her goal wasn't to receive training, it was recruitment. The film makes you think Rey accomplished her mission when Ben kills Snoke, and brilliantly embellishes this "holy poo poo, Ben's a good guy now!" scenario with the ensuing brawl against the guards, but then the film subverts that notion by revealing Snoke was a red herring, and it's actually Ben who is the real big baddie of the franchise.
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Dec 20, 2017 03:54
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teagone posted:The training was never a priority for Rey. She believed that she could save Ben and in doing so would turn the tide against the First Order. She implores Luke to join her because the resistance needs him in the war effort but he refuses. Rey figures since Luke won't help the resistance, maybe Ben can. Her goal wasn't to receive training, it was recruitment. The film makes you think Rey accomplished her mission when Ben kills Snoke, and brilliantly embellishes this "holy poo poo, Ben's a good guy now!" scenario with the ensuing brawl against the guards, but then the film subverts that notion by revealing Snoke was a red herring, and it's actually Ben who is the real big baddie of the franchise. Yeah that was a fantastic turn.
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Dec 20, 2017 03:55
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I haven't been reading this thread but this is what I got out of the movie
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Dec 20, 2017 04:51
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I loving love porg
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Dec 20, 2017 04:52
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Lord Hydronium posted:Also this audience knew how to cheer at the big reveal at the end. What big reveal?
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Dec 20, 2017 05:17
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viral spiral posted:What big reveal? that Luke is projecting himself from Ahch-To
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Dec 20, 2017 05:28
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I really don't think "It's okay to make mistakes, you know" is such a grand, majestic, and deeply interesting theme that it justifies a boring two-hour retread of ANH followed by a weird structural mess of a movie about Luke turning out to be a sad depressed failure who's basically responsible for loving up the entire galaxy again after the optimistic and uplifting ending of ROTJ, only to "redeem" himself by becoming a hologram for a few minutes and briefly distracting some pouty goober so like twenty people can run out the back door, and then dying. Luke ultimately isn't the one who has to fix all his mistakes--Rey is. In the end, Luke didn't do any better than his elders. But that he did do better than his elders is the entire point of the original story, and what makes it so powerful. I'm guessing some people will come and start telling me how it's all such a brilliant, realistic portrayal of flawed humanity, but I feel like we already got that in spades and to retread that theme with Luke does nothing but diminish the emotional appeal of the story. To me, Star Wars is a fairy tale about a boy becoming a man by fixing the mistakes of his parents and building a brighter future for everyone. I would have preferred an ST that was about his children having to take on the responsibility of preserving that future and dealing with new challenges in the process. Let Luke have his accomplishments, he earned them. Taking a happy thing and turning it dark and depressing doesn't automatically make a story good, bold, adult, or subversive. Sometimes it just diminishes everything that came before it and transforms a fairy tale into something unnecessarily cynical. TLJ's take on Luke isn't the genius, virtuoso move by an iconoclast visionary that people are making it out to be. It's just Rian Johnson trying to make the best of the poorly thought-out status quo he was given. Maybe they should have spent less time tearing down Luke just so they could build him back up to his ROTJ self again, and more time building a strong arc for Rey, who still doesn't really have one. e: teagone posted:The training was never a priority for Rey. She believed that she could save Ben and in doing so would turn the tide against the First Order. She implores Luke to join her because the resistance needs him in the war effort but he refuses. Rey figures since Luke won't help the resistance, maybe Ben can. Her goal wasn't to receive training, it was recruitment. The film makes you think Rey accomplished her mission when Ben kills Snoke, and brilliantly embellishes this "holy poo poo, Ben's a good guy now!" scenario with the ensuing brawl against the guards, but then the film subverts that notion by revealing Snoke was a red herring, and it's actually Ben who is the real big baddie of the franchise. The moment Ben "turned" I immediately knew exactly what was going to happen afterward: Rey was going to go, "Yeah, all right, let's go and be good together!" and Ben was going to go "No I'm actually still evil!" The only twists that couldn't be predicted in this movie were the plot mechanical ones, like Snoke getting killed. Obviously Ben wasn't going to be redeemed, because that's what happened in TESB. The movie tried so hard to be unpredictable that it was actually pretty predictable. That's what I mean when I say it adheres almost as hard to the OT movies as TFA, only from a different direction. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 06:03 on Dec 20, 2017 |
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Dec 20, 2017 05:54
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Cnut the Great posted:I really don't think "It's okay to make mistakes, you know" is such a grand, majestic, and deeply interesting theme that it justifies a boring two-hour retread of ANH followed by a weird structural mess of a movie about Luke turning out to be a sad depressed failure who's basically responsible for loving up the entire galaxy again after the optimistic and uplifting ending of ROTJ, only to "redeem" himself by becoming a hologram for a few minutes and briefly distracting some pouty goober so like twenty people can run out the back door, and then dying. Luke ultimately isn't the one who has to fix all his mistakes--Rey is. In the end, Luke didn't do any better than his elders. But that he did do better than his elders is the entire point of the original story, and what makes it so powerful. Everything I see seems to indicate that loving TLJ comes with a deep sense of bringing contemporary views to it, as opposed to enjoying the Star Wars universe for what it... was. I was going to say 'is' but that's not true anymore. Luke is a hermit who hosed everything up? Uh, yeah, because this is 2017 and there's no heroes! Poe is something to do with toxic masculinity, maybe? Yeah, because that's important in 2017! The First Order are both jokes who we open a movie with 'dunking on' and incredibly scary existential threats? Because they're the alt-right! Poe, Finn and Rose actively make the existing situation worse? This is 2017, there is no hope! Heapings of jokes and inconsistencies? What're you, some kind of nerd? It's 2017, you should know what to expect. It's like how you can find thinkpieces saying things like 'THE LIST OF TIMES THE LAST JEDI TOLD STAR WARS TO EAT poo poo'. There's this certain smug meanness towards the old Star Wars (well, really, more directed to this shoggoth-like idea of 'Star Wars fans or Star Wars nerds') which, for better or worse, was born from the mind of one man. "This isn't your Star Wars anymore, which was really bad. This is Disney Star Wars now, and it's good, and we're going to make a movie every year!" It's such a dour, cynical loving film. Rey is less a character and more a symbol. The Last Jedi is less a film and more a symbol of, well, whatever Star Wars is going to become. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Dec 20, 2017 |
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Dec 20, 2017 06:13
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I suspect that TLJ is going to hold up better than The Phantom Menace, Attack Of The Clones, and maybe Return of the Jedi in the long run on account of the fact that it's so bold and brazenly weird. Most Star Wars conversation has generally been relegated to fawning over the original trilogy, or punching down on the missteps of the prequels. This movie is generating genuine discussion out of the fact that people have legit opinions and feelings over how characters developed, and what the motivations of those developments were. It's a movie that demands conversation, and not the in the masturbatory way that the prequels often lent themselves to. There's complexity to the choices made in TLJ that is text, rather than through implication. I find that very exciting. And it makes me equally excited for the sequel - something I haven't been able to say in a long time - because I legitimately don't know where the series goes from here.
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Dec 20, 2017 06:21
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