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Yes, that’s part of what made Episode II great
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Dec 20, 2017 17:19
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Throne room fight with pretty much the same stakes and setup as ROTJ that plays out differently = remix, finding a master on an obscure planet to teach you but he is reluctant = remix, battle on salt planet where walkers come at the base in a perfect line = remix make a walker shaped like a rhino next time or something I could go on but those are the biggest remixes from ESB and ROTJ. Some of this is inevitable given the fact that this is star wars, and you want to cut them some slack but it really adds to it when you keep using the same ship designs over and over which themselves have been remixed. Plus I think TFA and TLJ are remixing at basically the same rate yet one is completely criticized while the other is getting praised for being radically different. I will give the ST some credit. For instance Finn's character is not a remix, we haven't seen an enemy grunt turned good guy. That was great. Bulkiest Toaster fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Dec 20, 2017 |
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Dec 20, 2017 17:22
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They did new stuff when it was important for the story. I don't think new for news sake makes sense when you are trying to tell a story in a episodic sequence and you have to somewhat rely on people's instant visual recognition of things. Like even the even the most fringe audience member knows tie fighter bad xwing good. Medical frigates and calamari cruisers equals rebels and so on.
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Dec 20, 2017 17:26
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Bulkiest Toaster posted:Throne room fight with pretty much the same stakes and setup as ROTJ that plays out differently = remix, finding a master on an obscure planet to teach you but he is reluctant = remix, battle on salt planet where walkers come at the base in a perfect line = remix make a walker shaped like a rhino next time or something Don't forget that most of the cast spend the majority of the movie being chased by star destroyers. I was honestly kind of shocked how much they pinched from earlier movies considering the criticism of tFA.
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Dec 20, 2017 17:28
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Ammanas posted:Just wanna say I appreciate cnuts posts, they're elaborating my feelings almost perfectly. Star Wars has never existed "out of time". The original Star Wars was George Lucas casting the Viet Cong as the heroes and the USA as the evil Empire. Return of the Jedi took this and turned it up to 11.
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Dec 20, 2017 17:45
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thrawn527 posted:Star Wars has never existed "out of time". The original Star Wars was George Lucas casting the Viet Cong as the heroes and the USA as the evil Empire. Return of the Jedi took this and turned it up to 11. "I was not alive for the political context in which the movie was created and to which it referred, ergo I do not believe it exists in a political context."
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Dec 20, 2017 17:50
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PT6A posted:"I was not alive for the political context in which the movie was created and to which it referred, ergo I do not believe it exists in a political context." I don't disagree, but since hearing that 'All Things Considered' review I posted earlier I've been reading reviews of ANH from 1977 and there's nary a mention of the politics of the movie from the critics. In fact, there's not much discussion of narratives beyond things like: Charles Chalpin of the LA Times posted:...The mythic and simple world of the good guys vs. the bad guys (identifiable without a scorecard or footnotes), the rustlers and the land grabbers, the old generation saving the young with a last heroic gesture which drives home the messages of courage and conviction. There's a theme in these reviews that hit upon things like hope, optimism and fantasy escapism of a positive, reaffirming type that I think contrasts with the take that it was somehow read as a political movie to its contemporaries. Yes, art exists almost directly as a function of ideology and politics, and it certainly reflects the sensibilities of the times (and of the creator), and yes, ANH--and Star Wars in general--I think, is at its best when viewed through the allegorical lens of insurgency. In fact, one of the things I think is most fascinating is the difference in technology and tone and visual language we have for insurgencies today compared to, say 1977. For instance, the rebels are now suicide bombers. Anywho my point is that it's a bit disingenuous to think that people in 1977 saw Star Wars as an overtly political film the way that some people in 2017 seem to think TLJ is
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Dec 20, 2017 18:10
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The empire are space nazis my man.
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Dec 20, 2017 18:12
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euphronius posted:The empire are space nazis my man. i agree
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Dec 20, 2017 18:14
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thrawn527 posted:Star Wars has never existed "out of time". The original Star Wars was George Lucas casting the Viet Cong as the heroes and the USA as the evil Empire. Return of the Jedi took this and turned it up to 11. People keep saying this, but the movie is made out of World War II dogfight scenes and the bad guys are dressed like nazis, and the good guys don’t use guerrilla tactics. And everybody’s white and the good guys are American while the bad guys are foreign. It’s possible that George Lucas has insane, impossible-to-realize good ideas that he can’t realize very effectively, like a thinner Dan Akroyd.
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Dec 20, 2017 18:15
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Waffles Inc. posted:i agree That's a political comment the movie is making. Nazis are evil.
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Dec 20, 2017 18:18
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business hammocks posted:People keep saying this, but the movie is made out of World War II dogfight scenes and the bad guys are dressed like nazis, and the good guys don’t use guerrilla tactics. And everybody’s white and the good guys are American while the bad guys are foreign. It’s possible that George Lucas has insane, impossible-to-realize good ideas that he can’t realize very effectively, like a thinner Dan Akroyd. The editor of Apocalypse Now said, of George Lucas (emphasis mine) Walter Murch posted:Originally George Lucas was going to direct (‘Apocalypse Now’), so it was a project that George and John (Milius) developed for Zoetrope. That was back in 1969. Then when Warner Brothers cancelled the funding for Zoetrope, the project was abandoned for a while. After the success of ‘American Graffiti’ in 1973, George wanted to revive it, but it was still too hot a topic, the war was still on, and nobody wanted to finance something like that. So George considered his options: What did he really want to say in ‘Apocalypse Now?’ The message boiled down to the ability of a small group of people to defeat a gigantic power simply by the force of their convictions. And he decided, All right, if it’s politically too hot as a contemporary subject, I’ll put the essence of the story in outer space and make it happen in a galaxy long ago and far away. The rebel group were the North Vietnamese, and the Empire was the United States. And if you have ‘the force,’ no matter how small you are, you can defeat the overwhelmingly big power. ‘Star Wars’ is George’s transubstantiated version of ‘Apocalypse Now.’ I think ANH realizes this idea very well
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Dec 20, 2017 18:20
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euphronius posted:That's a political comment the movie is making. Nazis are evil. What are you disagreeing with me about Euphronius? Do you think that I do not think that Star Wars is political?
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Dec 20, 2017 18:21
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You said ANH wasn't overtly political.
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Dec 20, 2017 18:24
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Waffles Inc. posted:The editor of Apocalypse Now said, of George Lucas (emphasis mine) I guess I just want to see the Vietcong in space fighting literal Americans, then. The movie looks like democracy fighting fascists using the visual vocabulary of war movies. I mean, that thematic notion is identical to how everyone except America who fought the nazis and the Empire of Japan understood their struggle, the Vietnamese included. It just doesn’t seem to touch the American horror at the Vietnam War, which was more than simply realizing the people wanted their country back. Hell, that’s the narrative of the American Revolution.
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Dec 20, 2017 18:28
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euphronius posted:You said ANH wasn't overtly political. are you kidding me? like, no kidding, did you read my post? the whole idea is that after reading a ton of reviews of ANH I said that the reviews at the time did not hit upon the movie's ideology and politics Waffles Inc. posted:There's a theme in these reviews that hit upon things like hope, optimism and fantasy escapism of a positive, reaffirming type that I think contrasts with the take that it was somehow read as a political movie to its contemporaries. like why be disingenuous about my point? c'mon now
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Dec 20, 2017 18:32
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I apologize if I missed your point.
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Dec 20, 2017 18:34
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Movies are always influenced by the culture surrounding them, sometimes in different ways. A blockbuster in 2017 is different than a blockbuster in 1977, and if it was created as if it existed in an identical cultural context it wouldn't be the same, just like a movie shot to look like an 80s movie can and should be viewed differently than a movie shot in the 80s. And I think you guys are taking "TLJ IS A 2017 MOVIE!!" a bit too far. It reflects current context but it's not like a Law and Order ripped from the headlines episode. That post about how TLJ fans have "contemporary views" instead of "enjoying star wars for what it is" is laughably bad.
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Dec 20, 2017 18:35
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business hammocks posted:It just doesn’t seem to touch the American horror at the Vietnam War, which was more than simply realizing the people wanted their country back. Hell, that’s the narrative of the American Revolution. I think you're right, and I wonder if Lucas regrets that, given how much he leaned into the narratives of the prequels. That said, Rogue 1 and TLJ seem to make the conflict much more asymetric
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Dec 20, 2017 18:38
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Empress Brosephine posted:I feel like I missed something but whats the reason exactly WHY Rey cares at all about the rebellion and didn't join Kylo? This is an insane question
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Dec 20, 2017 19:16
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Unmature posted:This is an insane question Yeah...why would someone who grew up dirt poor in the most backwater end of the galaxy, surrounded by husks of a past war with a fascist empire not want to do something about the next one?
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Dec 20, 2017 19:26
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Empress Brosephine posted:I feel like I missed something but whats the reason exactly WHY Rey cares at all about the rebellion and didn't join Kylo? Because he's a murderous sociopath who killed the closest thing to a father she ever had and is literally attempting to murder everyone she cares about in the world in service of the rise of horrifying new Empire? 
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Dec 20, 2017 20:06
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Unmature posted:This is an insane question I think it's really fascinating. Empress Brosephine is almost literally asking, "where was Rey radicalized", like they cannot imagine why someone would work with an insurgent extremist group lead by a member of a religion
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Dec 20, 2017 20:20
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I saw my third showing last night. It keeps getting better each time and I keep noticing neat little new things with each viewing. There was some cool visual foreshadowing that I caught last night for the first time and which I haven't seen anyone point out online yet: When Leia pulls herself back into the cruiser's bridge, she flies through a hologram of Snoke's ship. She cuts the same path through it that Holdo does later with the Hyperspace ram, and the hologram shatters.
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Dec 20, 2017 20:42
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I really, really loving hope JJ Abrams doesn't redact that Rey's parents are nobodies saying "Kylo Ren was lying! Ha ha! You really are space royalty, heir to the lost Jedi bloodline" or something, because making Star Wars about regular people stepping up to become heroes is far more interesting than the clamoring fanboy poo poo of saying that people HAVE to be connected to the Skywalker line or something. We had the Skywalker saga, it's time to move on while still acknowledging how important it was to the overall universe. That article somebody wrote about "Who the Broom Boy REALLY WAS" is the kind of bullshit that needs to loving go. The prequels made me pretty much completely leave SW fandom, and the Clone Wars series brought me back, because of the stories of Capt. Rex and crew, not more of the Space Wizards. Rogue One did the same for me. The galaxy is loving huge, and there's a lot of good stories to be told.
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Dec 20, 2017 20:58
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ImpAtom posted:Because he's a murderous sociopath who killed the closest thing to a father she ever had and is literally attempting to murder everyone she cares about in the world in service of the rise of horrifying new Empire? Yeah, but apart from that.
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Dec 20, 2017 21:02
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I think it's cool Rey don't give a poo poo about light vs dark and just uses power but also knows don't be a murder psycho.
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Dec 20, 2017 21:08
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If Rey's parents are worthless junkies then it sets the ground work for anyone, like the farm kid at the end to become a Jedi.
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Dec 20, 2017 21:31
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I think a lot of people aren't appreciating what this trilogy is meant to be. This trilogy is meant to hand over the torch to a new set of Star Wars. It's meant to transition away from ripping on 1950s adventure movies and make it possible to do cool NEW stuff with Star Wars. Since we're in transition, there's going to be some stuff that is effectively "ripped off" from the GOOD stuff (AKA: Original Trilogy) and times where they gently caress with it. Star Wars fanboys are notorious (and speaking AS one, rightfully so) and as a result, they need to be doing new stuff, while covering everything in a safety blanket of familiarity so that people don't freak out. -TFA: Very Safe so that people regain faith in the franchise after the prequel trilogy. -TLJ: A lot of references and callbacks, but loving with the conventions a lot. -???: Profit? Who the gently caress knows? How cool is that!? That being said: People still freaked out with this movie. Spoilers from here (I only got to see it last night): The Good: - Luke's story arc. It would have been kinda dull to see him as Space Jesus from the start. That would imply he's done nothing over the past 30 years and considering he's one of the most important characters, that would've been a shame. It's pretty shocking to see him as a grumpy bitter bastard instead of a starry-eyed naive kid, but he had an arc. When he "returned" as Space Jesus at the end, that was loving awesome stuff. I do wish we got to see him in his X-Wing though. - Rey and Ren is super cool. Rey is a little one-dimensional but that's kinda important in a messy film like this. She's the foundation, the thing we can rely on to always be the white knight. Ren being such a conflicted character gives a tonne of suspense about will-he-wont't-he turn stuff and his conflict is well established. He's got 2 names to live up to, Vader AND Skywalker. I still have no idea which way he's gonna turn and that's some good writing there. - I love Luke's new perspective on the Force. The whole "balance" thing meaning that for every good you need evil etc. That's way more interesting that good guys vs. bad guys. It sorta creates a bit of a grey area of the Force which is way more exciting and interesting to me. The whole Luke storyline in this made me very happy and I thought he was awesome in this. The Bad: - Finn's subplot was videogame bullshit and could probably be cut out of the film without any negative impact. - They're introducing too many characters for merchandising purposes and making things messier than they need to be. ESB had about 5 major characters, this has probably double that. I think it would've been better if Finn stayed KO'd in this film, but you couldn't let that happen in a kids movie... - loving hell NOBODY in this universe knows how to conduct a space battle. The military on BOTH sides in this film were criminally stupid. Grand Admiral Thrawn would be staring without emotion, but in severe disappointment. Ackbar being taken out as he was is totally lame too. But the whole point of this movie was out-with-the-old, and in-with-the-new. I think Yoda basically even said that at one point. They're breaking traditions, without loving up the original trilogy and still being fairly respectful to its old cliches. They reference something, then make something different happen instead and THAT is super exciting and interesting to me. H13 fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Dec 20, 2017 |
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Dec 20, 2017 21:33
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Luke rejected the Jedi by basically doing exactly what his Jedi training taught him (which he had already rejected in episode 5). Incoherent!
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Dec 20, 2017 21:35
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Sinding Johansson posted:Luke rejected the Jedi by basically doing exactly what his Jedi training taught him (which he had already rejected in episode 5). Incoherent! It's almost like it was an arc whereby he came full circle in the end...
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Dec 20, 2017 21:39
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About Ackbar One thing I think many may not know was that Ackbar's RoTJ/TFA voice actor died before filming wrapped. That probably contributed to his more limited screentime before dying. Not that he probably wouldn't have died anyway, but it makes sense why they didn't give him as many lines since someone else was doing it.
Teek fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Dec 20, 2017 |
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Dec 20, 2017 21:39
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H13 posted:It's almost like it was an arc whereby he came full circle in the end... Does not parse
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Dec 20, 2017 21:41
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GATOS Y VATOS posted:I really, really loving hope JJ Abrams doesn't redact that Rey's parents are nobodies saying "Kylo Ren was lying! Ha ha! You really are space royalty, heir to the lost Jedi bloodline" or something, because making Star Wars about regular people stepping up to become heroes is far more interesting than the clamoring fanboy poo poo of saying that people HAVE to be connected to the Skywalker line or something. We had the Skywalker saga, it's time to move on while still acknowledging how important it was to the overall universe. Had another listen to the soundtrack, and I was wrong, it's a good 'un. Not at ESB/TPM level, but solidly in the ANH/ROTJ/ROTS range. Better than TFA's, I think, which mostly has Rey's theme going for it.
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Dec 20, 2017 21:41
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Watched the newest one yesterday. Did Daisy Ridley gain weight? She looks, like, beefier or something.
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Dec 20, 2017 22:15
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Yeah, when those pig beasts on the casino planet showed up, I was all "Whys Rey here?!". Everyone in the audience clapped for me.
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Dec 20, 2017 22:21
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Huh? I mean she looked like her arms and neck had gotten thicker. I saw a video of her deadlifting about 200lbs.
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Dec 20, 2017 22:33
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She did look a bit more athletic yeah. I didn't notice till I Checked screen shots. Good for her. Make those gains.
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Dec 20, 2017 22:48
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They probably make everyone get jacked for these movies. Hamill looked way more jacked than he has since the 80s.
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Dec 20, 2017 22:54
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Throw me around jedi master Kylo got huge too, and as someone pointed out on Twitter he's not impossibly cut like the marvel dudes, he Just loving Lifts.
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Dec 20, 2017 22:55
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