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Dec 20, 2017 20:23
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Decius posted:And yet until 50 years before "now" there were 1000 years of peace and no overt Sith/Dark Side involvement and thousands of Jedi keeping the peace in a rather peaceful Republic. The state that before the new canon was what's "balance". The sith are a tiny cult of alchemists. The problem is that your definition of peace and light overlooks the slavery, racial strife, and exploitation that took place in the Republic. However unintentionally, you are arguing for a ‘light slavery’ that is acceptable because it benefits your team. Owl’s point is that balance is impossible, and George Lucas made the same point: the light - true balance - can only come from the elimination of exploitation everywhere - on both sides. This was the entire point of the famous throne-room battle: realizing that it was impossible to win, Luke attempted suicide as a ‘gently caress you!’ to the overwhelming cruelty of the entire universe. This unbalanced act of self-destruction in the name of pacifism is what inspired Vader to do the impossible and chase the emperor away, however temporarily, at the cost of his own life. And Vader was the incarnation of the force. The force, which is darkness, died with him. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Dec 20, 2017 |
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Dec 20, 2017 20:24
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Waffles Inc. posted:What you're suggesting is "guns don't kill people, people kill people", but with the force. A gun sitting on a shelf inert is not "light". Using the gun to prevent a murder is "light". The Force itself is not light nor dark. Controlling and using it to do good is "light".
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Dec 20, 2017 20:26
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Cojawfee posted:Han was trying to stall and buy time so they can achieve their objective. I wasn't even talking about Poe, or even this new movie? I was just pointing out how disingenuous a claim that "well in the first movie Han did a crank call" was since it's, y'know, clearly not true. But feel free to reflexively defend this movie that I didn't bring up
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Dec 20, 2017 20:27
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That underestimates the Jedi. They just don't use a gun. They set up a government with them at the head and institute "liberal democracy"
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Dec 20, 2017 20:28
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euphronius posted:Hmmm Nah it's a fair point, for sure. It's again just interesting to me that this evolution has evolved the force into a power that thinks that for every Saint there should be a Serial Killer. Based on Snoke's understanding of the Force, are Dark Side and Light Side users pre-ordained? If Kylo had been killed by Luke or not turned, would a new Dark Side user have been born? Super86 posted:A gun sitting on a shelf inert is not "light". Using the gun to prevent a murder is "light". It's a bad analogy, and I'm sorry. My overall point was that the original conception of the force was that it was, by default, Good(tm), thus any negative uses or applications of it were Bad(tm). The Dark Side (bad) was described by Lucas as a cancer; the natural, standard state of the force was good. There was never a "gray" or "middle" before because there's no middle ground between Not-Corrupted and Corrupted. That's different now. Waffles Inc. fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Dec 20, 2017 |
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Dec 20, 2017 20:28
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Lifting rocks vs. connection to everything: only half of what Luke just said was wrong. While Rey had to lift rocks at the end, it was to re-connect with the others.
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Dec 20, 2017 20:33
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I don’t like Snoke’s interpretation of the force and hope it isn’t how it’s defined ongoing. Conceptually it removes any sort of free will within force users if they’re on a one way road to ‘good guy’ or ‘bad guy’. Or maybe this trilogy will end with every newborn going through a midichlorian test and they figure out how to read midichlorians to determine good or bad with the bad babies being sent to die
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Dec 20, 2017 20:33
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Super86 posted:A gun sitting on a shelf inert is not "light". Using the gun to prevent a murder is "light". You know the scene where luke says the force isn't lifting rocks then rei lifts rocks? Luke wasn't confused and saying the force literally can't lift rocks. He's saying "only a misguided person would use their intimate connection to the flow of the universe to lift a rock" It's the pantheon bar from holy mountain. It's the people that got right up to the very edge of enlightenment on the holy mountain and instead decided to become rich and famous and powerful. If you are really good at the force you can lift a big rock. If you are really really really good at the force you realize the rock is where it belongs. Or whatever.
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Dec 20, 2017 20:34
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Considering how the force is built up as a natural force connecting all living things I feel like the natural conclusion when pure enlightenment is reached is that you shouldn’t use the force at all, for anything
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Dec 20, 2017 20:36
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trash person posted:Considering how the force is built up as a natural force connecting all living things I feel like the natural conclusion when pure enlightenment is reached is that you shouldn’t use the force at all, for anything But what about the Sith. How do you stop them.
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Dec 20, 2017 20:37
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euphronius posted:But what about the Sith. How do you stop them. If we go by how the movies show it there wouldn’t be any Sith without any Jedi. I haven’t read literally any supplemental material ever regarding Star Wars but are there any Sith that start out as Sith? Or are they all Jedi that eventually get turned to the dark side by temptation or whatever
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Dec 20, 2017 20:39
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I'm not sure TLJ introduces concepts that contradict anything, I think they actually better flesh out what's happening. I think it's more like in the normal scheme of the galaxy, everything is in balance and in order. Life is created and dies, it does it's thing. A planet dies out, somewhere else in the galaxy it might start up again. The Force is present throughout. Dark side users introduce disorder into the system, so the Force introduces a light side counter (Rey) to counter it out. Light side users are not disorders though, ideally they're a part of the order and not negatively affecting the system. I believe the argument Luke and the Prequels made were that the Jedi were no longer operating within that order. Ultimately violence and death could be considered "the dark side". But natural violence and death is part of the normal orderly system of life, a dark side user creates a disturbance and throws the balance out of wack. That's when the Force steps in and tries to get balance again.
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Dec 20, 2017 20:40
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trash person posted:If we go by how the movies show it there wouldn’t be any Sith without any Jedi. But sure I mean hypothetically but there is one right now named Kylo . It's a rhetorical question for the next movie to answer or probably ignore.
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Dec 20, 2017 20:41
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trash person posted:Considering how the force is built up as a natural force connecting all living things I feel like the natural conclusion when pure enlightenment is reached is that you shouldn’t use the force at all, for anything Yeah, luke didn't die because someone cut him with a lightsaber, he lived on an island for 49 years then fought one more battle then looked at the sun and became so connected to the force he simply ceased to exist as an indvidual and became one with the force.
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Dec 20, 2017 20:42
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trash person posted:If we go by how the movies show it there wouldn’t be any Sith without any Jedi. I don't know what's currently  Lucasfilm Story Group Canon but I do not believe Sheev was ever a Jedi, which would lead me to believe that Plagueis wasn't either
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Dec 20, 2017 20:45
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euphronius posted:But sure I mean hypothetically but there is one right now named Kylo . I mean the most morally correct thing would be for after Kylo is defeated Rey should no longer practice the force/should not teach anyone. Or even maybe kill herself. If we go by the definition of balance as ‘if there is light there must be dark’ if you take out the light there wouldn’t be a purpose for the universe to create a dark. Which I mean the universe could just create new light and dark anyway in which case whatever god(s) there is in the Star Wars universe is beyond cruel
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Dec 20, 2017 20:45
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trash person posted:I mean the most morally correct thing would be for after Kylo is defeated Rey should no longer practice the force/should not teach anyone. Or even maybe kill herself. If we go by the definition of balance as ‘if there is light there must be dark’ if you take out the light there wouldn’t be a purpose for the universe to create a dark. I think this is no poo poo what luke thought he was doing in RotJ, and kinda why Padme kills herself in RotS "gently caress this system in particular"
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Dec 20, 2017 20:46
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Teek posted:
I think the idea is that light side users create disorder too. Like if you were force sensitive and you came across a kid in trouble then you helped them then cool. But once you set up a police force and a state and start trying to preemptively control things you are going to end up with the force sending bigger and badder problems till they knock you down and it all returns to zero. Like the force equilibrium universe would be some people sometimes talking to force for guidance and maybe helping out in the community here and there. And some level of sith existing as evil things exist but never gaining too much power or influence. But once either side organizes the balance is off and war will start until it's back to background levels
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Dec 20, 2017 20:50
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Super86 posted:A gun sitting on a shelf inert is not "light". Using the gun to prevent a murder is "light". Maybe, who knows yet? Old canon under Lucas it was extremely like Christianity - The Force/God is good by nature. Evil is a perversion of the power. You can be redeemed, even after a life of evil by accepting The Force/God. New canon seems to be according to what Luke/Yoda said Yin/Yang set to good/evil, where you can be a bit good and a bit evil and "The Force" apparently selects champions for each "side" to balance itself out, which means you better not try fitting OT an PT into this concept if you want to stay sane. But perpetual conflict means perpetual merchandise and movies.
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Dec 20, 2017 20:50
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I think the idea is that light side users create disorder too. I agree largely, I believe that's part of what they were talking about. Something like being a doctor. A doctor can help patients and make them better, however they also accept that they can't help everyone and some patients die. Freeing kids from slavery is a good thing, exploiting others and causing violence against them goes beyond the normal push and pull of the galaxy though. If a land slide wiped out a village, it's a natural occurrence of the dark side of life. If it's "Slavers came in, killed the parents and took the children", that's application of the dark side which the Force has an interest in addressing. The Jedi ideally act as a force to help counter that and bring some order back. How organized they become and what battles they pick and choose are the interesting questions.
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Dec 20, 2017 21:00
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Decius posted:Maybe, who knows yet? Eastern religion that has ying and yang almost always have some concept that being a good person is better than being a bad person but that the best person exists beyond good and evil and wouldn't see things in terms like that.
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Dec 20, 2017 21:00
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Uh isn't this leading to a Mass Effect 3 ending.
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Dec 20, 2017 21:01
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They were no good endings in Mass Effect 3, you were forced to pick and choose among several lovely options by a third party. Not some cosmic "everything". By the way, we now know what the third lesson would have been, which is kind of relevant to this discussion: http://www.slashfilm.com/star-wars-the-last-jedi-deleted-scenes/ quote:One of the biggest deleted scenes involves another lesson Luke Skywalker gives to Rey, taking place chronologically after they talk inside the cave where Luke mentions Darth Sidious. Rey notices boats arriving at the island and there appears to be a big fire from where they’re landing. Luke tells her that it is a group of bandits who regularly come back to the island to plunder and kill the caretakers. Rey is very concerned and wants to help them, but Luke tells her that if you help them now, the raiders will come back stronger and it will make things worse in the future. He asks Rey if she is always going to be here to protect them, saying that a true Jedi Knight would do nothing and would only act to maintain balance, even when people get hurt. I believe this party would have been the male Caretaker species returning to the island, there was something in the production books about them being at sea for a few weeks and then returning, ala fishermen. Teek fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Dec 20, 2017 |
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Dec 20, 2017 21:03
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Even if there were no Jedi or Sith, there would still be people using the dark side of the Force to hurt people and exercise power over them. The Force flows through everything, Luke himself says that for Jedi to presume that they own it is presumptuous at best. I think what Yoda's getting at in this film is that the "balance" that everyone seems to want so badly is just a idealistic goal, but it shouldn't prevent you from doing what you think is right in the present to help the people you care about. Balancing the Force is more about maintaining the balance within yourself, that a mistake isn't a reason to retreat from the Force, in fact it's the exact opposite. A mistake can be "balanced" by doing good for others, but if you just give up and isolate yourself then you're allowing that imbalance to continue. So that's what Luke is understanding at the end, that he hosed up with Kylo, but that doesn't mean he can't succeed with Rey. Or that Rey can't succeed with her own students. The balancing of the Force is a cosmic thing on a cosmic time scale, but people still have to be people in the moment and do the best they can to help improve the situation.
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Dec 20, 2017 21:08
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It's almost like Star Wars, much like Star Trek, has a whole universe that wasn't thought out very well because it was just some random project someone wanted to put work on.
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Dec 20, 2017 21:11
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euphronius posted:I know. I don't get it at all. It's because he punk'd Hux. People have this insatiable desire to see Hux unpunk'dable and can't stand seeing Poe run game on him like that to buy himself and the fleet time.
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Dec 20, 2017 21:15
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Teek posted:They were no good endings in Mass Effect 3, you were forced to pick and choose among several lovely options by a third party. Not some cosmic "everything". Am I reading this correctly that this scene would have been "Qui-Gon was right to not free the slaves", or was the fact that she was really going to a party meant to show that he was being ironic and instead it was, "duh you should absolutely free slaves"? Also there is not a  big enough for the idea of the fishermen like returning thing omg
Waffles Inc. fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Dec 20, 2017 |
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Dec 20, 2017 21:16
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I think it's worth remembering that while both Palpatine and Snoke believed that the Force preordained their success, both were wrong. Rey, Luke, Vader— they all either defied destiny or at least fulfilled it in unusual ways. It's entirely possible that Snoke was wrong.
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Dec 20, 2017 21:17
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AndyElusive posted:It's because he punk'd Hux. People have this insatiable desire to see Hux unpunk'dable and can't stand seeing Poe run game on him like that to buy himself and the fleet time. People have a desire to not see bad, unfunny comedy bits.
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Dec 20, 2017 21:19
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Waffles Inc. posted:Am I reading this correctly that this scene would have been "Qui-Gon was right to not free the slaves", or was the fact that she was really going to a party meant to show that he was being ironic and instead it was, "duh you should absolutely free slaves"? It's a bit hard for me to parse as well, I think Luke was saying "You guys know what you have to do, you don't need the Jedi for that." Rey was a good person and wanted to help, she didn't need Luke for that. The Force could help her if needed, she didn't need Luke or the Jedi. The movie takes the opinion that there's still weight in Luke though, just not in the way he initially thought. Teek fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Dec 20, 2017 |
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Dec 20, 2017 21:21
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What would be the best spoiler review to watch on youtube?
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Dec 20, 2017 21:24
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Mantis42 posted:People have a desire to not see bad, unfunny comedy bits. I dunno man. I don't laugh at every joke every time there is a joke in anything with jokes, but I accept even if I don't think a joke was laugh out loud hilarious that other people might or that they might also just find amusement from it. I'm still usually amused by the effort too. You seem incapable of accepting any of this or that your boy Hux didn't realize what was going on until Poe had what he wanted.  I'm sorry.
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Dec 20, 2017 21:24
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Teek posted:It's a bit hard for me to parse as well, I think Luke was saying "You guys know what you have to do, you don't need the Jedi for that." Rey was a good person and wanted to help, she didn't need Luke for that. The Force could help her if needed, she didn't need Luke. The movie takes the opinion that there's still weight in Luke though, just not in the way he thought. I think you're right. Luke's point seems to be that the Jedi would do nothing (and he's not wrong, the prequel trilogy had lots of moments of non-Jinn Jedi ignoring suffering in the name of "the code.") He tells Rey that she is too good a person to be a Jedi. The article says that the scene got cut because they decided it was too morally muddy, so take that for what it's worth.
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Dec 20, 2017 21:25
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It has other purposes besides comedy so ok you didn't laugh. I applaud your sensibility.
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Dec 20, 2017 21:25
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Grouchio posted:What would be the best spoiler review to watch on youtube? Honestly don't know how spicy of a take this is but: I would avoid YT for a legitimately interesting viewpoint. YT content creators are forced into a corner where they need a continually returning audience, so they can only cater to a specific viewpoint, so you tend to get either effusive praise or snarky dislike. For instance, it would be "Off Brand" for channels like Star Wars Explained and that star wars gal (Jenny something?) to have disliked TLJ, same as RLM could not like it, since their audience seems to have solidified around "it's bad"
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Dec 20, 2017 21:27
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Waffles Inc. posted:Am I reading this correctly that this scene would have been "Qui-Gon was right to not free the slaves", or was the fact that she was really going to a party meant to show that he was being ironic and instead it was, "duh you should absolutely free slaves"? You're misreading it. As described the scene is Luke trying to teach her the Jedi way (i.e: "It's not our place to interfere/we need to maintain the balance") and Rey ignores him and goes to help and Luke basically says "Yeah, that is what you should be doing, not trying to be a Jedi." He didn't expect her to run off faster than he could stop her but he was trying to get her to argue that the Jedi way was wrong.
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Dec 20, 2017 21:28
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Teek posted:It's a bit hard for me to parse as well, I think Luke was saying "You guys know what you have to do, you don't need the Jedi for that." Rey was a good person and wanted to help, she didn't need Luke for that. The Force could help her if needed, she didn't need a Jedi. The movie takes the opinion that there's still weight in Luke though, just not in the way he initially thought. Yeah I think you're probably right. It hadn't even occurred to me that we hadn't gotten lesson 3, but it's odd that they used that dialogue as a framing mechanism and then dropped it ImpAtom posted:You're misreading it. Ah yeah yeah I gotchu
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Dec 20, 2017 21:28
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Grouchio posted:What would be the best spoiler review to watch on youtube? What kind of review are you looking for? Fans who enjoyed it and go over points, or a more in-depth film student-esque critical view of various things?
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Dec 20, 2017 21:29
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THe Wikipedia page explains the plot well enough of that's what you want .
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Dec 20, 2017 21:29
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