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And that triggered memories of a few other times people were detained for because of what they were that might have have some negative associations for Cap.
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Dec 20, 2017 23:57
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Sgt. Politeness posted:More accurately "Eventually the UN will be full of Donald Trumps" It’s less that it was petty and more that Cap interpreted that differently than Tony did and saw it as validation of his fears. I don’t remember if Cap says it explicitly but my read was that it either reminded him of Germany or (probably more applicable) the Japanese internment camps and so on top of everything else he sees this and thinks “I’ve seen this before and I know what happens next”
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Dec 21, 2017 00:01
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But the deal was just supervision of heroes right? Why would it matter if Megahitler was suddenly in charge? The heroes could always choose to not do "evil poo poo". It's not like they had obedience chips planted in their brains Plus, all politicians are already evil
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Dec 21, 2017 00:03
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Could also be that Steve realized the law and order and doing what's right Tony was selling him on was bullshit as he casually blabs that he used vision to kidnap somebody like it's no biggieZzulu posted:But the deal was just supervision of heroes right? Why would it matter if Megahitler was suddenly in charge? The heroes could always choose to not do "evil poo poo". It's not like they had obedience chips planted in their brains Uh.. if they disobeyed they would be branded terrorists and hunted down...? If you're admitting politicians are evil I'm not sure why you would be for signing the accords tbh site fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Dec 21, 2017 |
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Dec 21, 2017 00:04
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Wanda's an illegal alien responsible for 3 of the 4 major disasters that cause the accords in the first place.
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Dec 21, 2017 00:16
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The hulk trashing wakanda, what else?
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Dec 21, 2017 00:18
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site posted:The hulk trashing wakanda, what else? Opening snafu in civil war. Also Ultron, I guess?
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Dec 21, 2017 00:20
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Cap's motivation makes more sense if you remember that Civil War is Captain America 3, not Avengers 3; he's coming off of finding out that huge amounts of the government, including the group he directly worked for, were infiltrated by literal Nazis decades ago who were pulling the strings. I mean yeah, he's going to be hesitant to get put on a government leash.
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Dec 21, 2017 00:21
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The beginning of Civil War, and being a collaborator for most of Ultron. And Hulk's in South Africa, not Wakanda. Even after she turns on him she leaves her post and is the reason one of his drones is able to drop the city.
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Dec 21, 2017 00:22
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The history of mutants has to be rewritten to work now - magneto would be too old to work with the whole ww2 background. It's actually good because you can have a younger magneto instead - To get the same dynamics of mutant hatred and race politics in the universe, I think the first mutant movie would have to be a villain story: Based on current events, the setting could be a divided America with a Trump-esque president, white nationalist marches, etc. Magneto is a 35-45ish corporate lawyer who does pro bono work for immigrants. There's a protest and a young Antifa Mexican Nitro is beaten by rally participants, then explodes, killing some. People think it's a bomb, and public divisions worsen. Magneto helps him, discovers that he is a mutant. During the course of the trial Mageto witnesses systematic abuse by law enforcement, is targeted himself (both by white nationalists, law enforcement) leading to him revealing his own powers in a public way. Media and the White House make him out to be the villain, avengers are called in, or the x-men interject, a 3 way battle makes things spiral out of control badly, leading to Magneto losing all faith in the system. Something like that. Mutants exist, mutants are bad is established. Goffer fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Dec 21, 2017 |
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Dec 21, 2017 00:23
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Aphrodite posted:The beginning of Civil War, and being a collaborator for most of Ultron. And Hulk's in South Africa, not Wakanda. I am very much in the camp that Wanda isn't to blame for the bazaar bombing. That's on crossbones. If it went off in the bazaar they'd be blamed for letting it go off and not saving everyone, if it goes off in the air then they get blamed for not saving the building. It's a no win scenario and they did the best they could but it's not their fault. Likewise it's IMO really dumb to blame her for anything ultron did regarding sokovia. She didn't build a loving rocket propulsion system under her own home to cause a mass extinction. Neither her brother nor her knew about the project and when they found out they immediately defected. And if you're gonna blame the town falling because she was upset over her brother dying get over yourself jfc
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Dec 21, 2017 00:31
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amigolupus posted:Something I'm wondering, but would the X-Men's tone even really fit into the current MCU? I mean, their deal is that the world hates and fears them because they're born and develop these amazing powers, right? And the world still loves the Avengers, last I checked. Hell, even Spider-Man isn't treated like a menace in his film, but as a local hero that everyone likes. I don't think it would, no. By combining them with FF, you set up a nice contrast too since the FF became mutants and the X-Men were born that way. The FF embrace the publicity and X-Men hide. There's some cool poo poo you could do with that dynamic without trying to jam Reed Richards into Tony Stark's universe since Reed could basically fill the Stark role in a separate universe. Plus, you don't need to add loving Galactus into a world that already has Thanos and Dormammu. With X-Men and FF, you have Galactus, Watcher, the Negative Zone, Magneto, the Brood, Skrulls, Sentinels, the Surfer, Inhumans, Franklin, Mole people... If they combine all this poo poo, before long we'll be looking at Secret Wars. Set them in the 70's and evolve their storylines concurrently. Take a more global approach like New X-Men did. Of course, without sharing the MCU, we'd never get Thing vs. Hulk but whatever. Thing IS the Hulk this way. Further, obviously the first thing someone has to do is make a FF movie that doesn't loving suck or else nothing works.
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Dec 21, 2017 00:33
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site posted:I am very much in the camp that Wanda isn't to blame for the bazaar bombing. That's on crossbones. If it went off in the bazaar they'd be blamed for letting it go off and not saving everyone, if it goes off in the air then they get blamed for not saving the building. It's a no win scenario and they did the best they could but it's not their fault. Sure, but maybe the public sees it different depending on how the news media spins it. I assumed we were talking in-universe.
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Dec 21, 2017 00:33
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Zzulu posted:But the deal was just supervision of heroes right? Why would it matter if Megahitler was suddenly in charge? The heroes could always choose to not do "evil poo poo". It's not like they had obedience chips planted in their brains Kind of. Comics Civil War had its issues of registration of all people with powers in the US whereas movie Civil War was about changing the Avengers into more or less a UN peacekeeping force. They would be sanctioned to do their thing but they could only act if given prior approval. If Kang was building a time travel device in the Gobi desert to bring in an army from the future but China wanted the Avengers to stay out of it, then that's what they'd have to do. Cap was worried that sovereignty, pride, corruption, ignorance, appeasement, or one of a million other reasons would prevent the Avengers from getting approval to save the day.
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Dec 21, 2017 00:37
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Even Tony admits that the Accords aren't very good. His plan was to change them from the inside after the heat on Wanda died down. He was just eager to get rid of as much responsibility as possible. Iron Man is so seriously wrong in Civil War it's not even funny. It's actually really sad.
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Dec 21, 2017 00:37
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fruit on the bottom posted:Sure, but maybe the public sees it different depending on how the news media spins it. I assumed we were talking in-universe. In universe no one would be aware she worked with ultron, would not know she hexed the hulk, and it's still a lovely thing to pin her as the cause of the bombing and not like the guy who had the loving bomb on his chest. You don't see the news blaming the military for failing to secure suicide bombers irl
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Dec 21, 2017 00:38
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Goffer posted:The history of mutants has to be rewritten to work now - magneto would be too old to work with the whole ww2 background. It's actually good because you can have a younger magneto instead - To get the same dynamics of mutant hatred and race politics in the universe, I think the first mutant movie would have to be a villain story: You're no Slim Goodbody
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Dec 21, 2017 00:40
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Yeah the one problem with Civil War is that they glossed over how SHIELD, which was the government agency that dealt with major threats, was being run by Nazis. So needless to say that would have bolstered Cap's argument that it was probably not a good idea for them to have to get government permission to go take care of stuff.
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Dec 21, 2017 01:05
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site posted:Could also be that Steve realized the law and order and doing what's right Tony was selling him on was bullshit as he casually blabs that he used vision to kidnap somebody like it's no biggie If megahitler becomes boss of the country I'd expect all the heroes to become terrorists anyway
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Dec 21, 2017 01:07
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Soooooo...you're against the accords
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Dec 21, 2017 01:10
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I mean it's kinda funny that they made Thunderbolt Ross the Secretary of Defense and had him give some speech about how if he lost some nukes that his rear end would be in a sling so obviously superheroes need strict oversight and it's like, didn't you create The Abomination?
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Dec 21, 2017 01:23
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I don't think it was an accident they used him as the avatar of govt oversight
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Dec 21, 2017 01:26
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Zzulu posted:If megahitler becomes boss of the country I'd expect all the heroes to become terrorists anyway That's assuming they knew about it though. Cap, Fury, et al unknowingly followed Hydra's orders for decades without knowing it was part of a larger plan. Fury headlined Project Insight and would have got hundred even thousands of people killed if he hadn't started asking questions at the last second.
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Dec 21, 2017 01:26
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Kai Tave posted:I mean it's kinda funny that they made Thunderbolt Ross the Secretary of Defense and had him give some speech about how if he lost some nukes that his rear end would be in a sling so obviously superheroes need strict oversight and it's like, didn't you create The Abomination? Thankfully the only guy who knows that wasn’t at the meeting.
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Dec 21, 2017 01:26
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That's assuming Clint, Natasha, Nick, or Bruce never said anything
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Dec 21, 2017 01:30
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site posted:That's assuming Clint, Natasha, Nick, or Bruce said anything Bruce was who I was thinking of, although Fury would know for sure. I think Tony knows too, from that one short.
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Dec 21, 2017 01:31
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Tony being a complete fuckstain we can assume would withhold information if it suits his agenda
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Dec 21, 2017 01:35
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Also he has no room to complain about a science project going horribly wrong
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Dec 21, 2017 01:36
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Seriously. Aphrodite is laying ultron at Wanda's feet but Tony and Bruce have nothing to do with anything feels a lot like something that Tony would try in universe
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Dec 21, 2017 01:41
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site posted:I am very much in the camp that Wanda isn't to blame for the bazaar bombing. That's on crossbones. If it went off in the bazaar they'd be blamed for letting it go off and not saving everyone, if it goes off in the air then they get blamed for not saving the building. It's a no win scenario and they did the best they could but it's not their fault. I didn't say blame. I said responsible. There's a difference in severity there, at least to me. Crossbones wasn't just suicide bombing a bazaar. Cap's botched operation led to that. And with Ultron she was perfectly fine with lots of murder, just not as much as he planned. I'm not saying she should get life in prison (except for her acting) but she probably shouldn't be able to just go to the mall or get ice cream. She's not even the only one who should be off the streets for a while. It's like the one good decision Tony makes. It was just dumb to make that Cap's point of no return. It was a sensible choice.
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Dec 21, 2017 01:49
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Someone brought up General Ross. Incredible Hulk is canon in the MCU, correct? I think it is. Then why do they ignore so many things established in that film? My reading of it is that Blonsky Stage 1 was him being injected with the Super Soldier Serum (or a knock off) and that the dude who was dicking around with the green blood became The Leader. Is that correct? Weren't there also still tainted soft drinks or beers or whatever those were still contaminated with Banner Blood? Might be a cool way to introduce She Hulk actually. If I remember right, Blonsky lived too. What happened to him? Wouldn't Ross have a bone or two to pick with Stark and the Avengers as well for harboring Banner (or did he and I missed it)? I thought IH was a pretty decent and underrated movie that seemed to go out of its way to set up stuff that for some reason has been totally ignored as the universe has expanded. Hulk is great and not used enough in these films.
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Dec 21, 2017 01:49
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Universal. Universal is the reason all of the Ed Norton stuff has been abandoned. It was actually really shocking to see that Thunderbolt was going to be in Civil War. I bet Norton is also a factor. They probably want to kinda keep the canonicity of Incredible Hulk as "only the stuff we mention and nothing else". Aphrodite posted:It was just dumb to make that Cap's point of no return. It was a sensible choice. It was more than Tony got his invincible, magical murderbot to forcibly detain her. Friends don't imprison each other over bad press.
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Dec 21, 2017 02:39
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SonicRulez posted:Universal. Universal is the reason all of the Ed Norton stuff has been abandoned. It was actually really shocking to see that Thunderbolt was going to be in Civil War. I bet Norton is also a factor. They probably want to kinda keep the canonicity of Incredible Hulk as "only the stuff we mention and nothing else". The actual biggest sticking point isn't even the Hulk movie rights, it's that Universal holds the rights to all theme park rides based on most major Marvel characters. Disney is pissed that they can't make a Disneyland section for their most profitable property.
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Dec 21, 2017 02:47
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Blonsky was supposed to be in Civil War but he had to be cut out for time
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Dec 21, 2017 02:52
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There’s a short (after Hulk) where SHIELD sends Tony to convince Ross to have the Abomination join the Avengers initiative and he refuses. Then there’s another short later on where Coulson tells Sitwell that they need to make sure that Ross refuses to get the abomination involved so he’s sending Tony to make him reflexively antagonistic to the idea.
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Dec 21, 2017 02:56
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I don't think you have to give a reason for mutants to start appearing, or at least in greater numbers. Xavier and the 05 and Wolverine could have been around, but could have had some deal with Fury to stay off the books, until something happens that causes them to come into the public eye.
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Dec 21, 2017 04:28
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twistedmentat posted:I don't think you have to give a reason for mutants to start appearing, or at least in greater numbers. Xavier and the 05 and Wolverine could have been around, but could have had some deal with Fury to stay off the books, until something happens that causes them to come into the public eye. Eh, I think you can have the X-Men show up without much trouble. They trained at Xavier's who kept them hidden and safe until something brings them out into the limelight. Maybe to help fill the void left after the Avengers battle with Thanos.
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Dec 21, 2017 04:38
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site posted:Seriously. Aphrodite is laying ultron at Wanda's feet but Tony and Bruce have nothing to do with anything feels a lot like something that Tony would try in universe Did you not watch Age of Ultron? Wanda very explicitly tells everyone that she put Tony's worst fears into his head, knowing it would drive him into a self-destructive mania that would destroy him and the Avengers, and points out that she could have stopped him from taking Loki's scepter but chose to let him so it would be the instrument of the Avengers' demise. Wanda knew she was loving with Tony's head and letting him take the scepter to make a giant mess of problems, she just wasn't expecting things to get as out of hand as they did. Yes, Tony had clearly been thinking about Ultron, he wanted to make something to fight Thanos' armies - he doesn't deny that, he wanted to make robots to do the Avengers' jobs so they could go home, stop having to be superheroes, and to get ready for the alien invasion they all know is coming. But it took Wanda to push him over the edge into creating Ultron.
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Dec 21, 2017 04:39
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Codependent Poster posted:Eh, I think you can have the X-Men show up without much trouble. They trained at Xavier's who kept them hidden and safe until something brings them out into the limelight. Maybe to help fill the void left after the Avengers battle with Thanos. My pet idea is to bring in the Thanos fight as a causal factor. Maybe shatter an infinity stone and spread it in the atmosphere or cause a worldwide energy pulse or whatever and boom bang you have an excuse for the sudden rise of mutants as A Thing. Maybe we had a handful around previously but now it goes widespread. Cue paranoia, hatred, and conspiracies as a population emerges and you have plenty to mine for the next dozen MCU movies.
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Dec 21, 2017 05:46
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Cythereal posted:Did you not watch Age of Ultron? Wanda very explicitly tells everyone that she put Tony's worst fears into his head, knowing it would drive him into a self-destructive mania that would destroy him and the Avengers, and points out that she could have stopped him from taking Loki's scepter but chose to let him so it would be the instrument of the Avengers' demise. Wanda knew she was loving with Tony's head and letting him take the scepter to make a giant mess of problems, she just wasn't expecting things to get as out of hand as they did. Wanda made Tony feel fear and his reaction was to immediately build a murder bot. One that nearly killed a poo poo ton of people. The fact that Ultron was Tony's very first impulse is entirely on him, not Wanda. She knew that prodding him would lead him to make a super destructive decision because she had an incredibly low opinion of Tony Stark and had seen his previous work. Sure enough, she was right. The slightest hint of trouble = robots with lasers.
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Dec 21, 2017 05:55
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