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Yaws posted:What was so wrong with the simple optimistic ending in RotJ? Why do they need to ruin that? Everyone was fine with it for 35 loving years. The second it's out of Lucas' hands they undo everything in the OT. All the main characters are dead. The galaxy is in the same place it was at the beginning of a New Hope What did they do to the OT?
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Dec 21, 2017 01:49
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UmOk posted:What did they do to the OT? Keep up
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Dec 21, 2017 01:51
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UmOk posted:What did they do to the OT? You didn't hear? Disney burned all the copies. Snuck into your house and burned them. Deleted them off your computer while you slept.
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Dec 21, 2017 01:54
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One of my favorite lines in the movie is Luke after Yoda hits the tree with lightning. "The Jedi texts!" It's just so full of shame, relief and a small hint of disdain. It's great.
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Dec 21, 2017 01:55
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Yaws posted:Why would he even consider it though? He's been through this before. He successfully turned someone far more gone than teenaged Ben Solo. Did he forget? His massive failure got his friend killed and a new Empire to spring up. Kylo is completely justified in wanting Luke dead. That momentary lapse in judgement is an instinctual trait he and his father shared. From what we're shown in the films, the Skywalker bloodline is highly susceptible to the temptations of the dark side. Anakin, Luke, and now Ben have all had their dabbles. But you're wrong about Ben. The difference is Luke was able to sense the conflict in Anakin, but he only sensed the darkness in Ben; the kid clearly is a different kind of beast. Despite knowing full well Snoke had already taken Ben's heart completely, Luke had the resolve to not strike down his only nephew. It's a testament to everything he stands for, and is reminiscent of his stance against the emperor in ROTJ. The action unfortunately had tragic consequences that ultimately left Luke jaded and sent Ben into a murderous rampage. Luke's whole arc in TLJ is coming back to accept what had happened and realize that he can't save Ben, but also realizing that's ok. I mean poo poo, even Leia admits to knowing Ben has gone full dark side completely.
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Dec 21, 2017 01:55
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Yaws posted:What was so wrong with the simple optimistic ending in RotJ? Why do they need to ruin that? Everyone was fine with it for 35 loving years. The second it's out of Lucas' hands they undo everything in the OT. All the main characters are dead. The galaxy is in the same place it was at the beginning of a New Hope I kind of get it, but it's not back to where it was, not quite. We're at a point where the galaxy is about to be invaded at the end of Ep8. Presumably they will stop it in Ep9 (unless it really is the hell universe and they don't stop the order) I would absolutely have rather they go with a plot about defending something that had been built, just from a purely emotional point of view, but at the same time I think you get such a great, strong, heroic ending for Luke here that I can't be too sore about it. Got my threads muddled, apologies if that was too spoilery ShineDog fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Dec 21, 2017 |
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Dec 21, 2017 01:55
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It's not even a lapse in judgment, he didn't even do it. This feels like arguing with your girlfriend because you maybe turned your head a tiny bit when a hot girl walked by.
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Dec 21, 2017 01:56
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I think the point of it is that it's hard to be that dude who forgives. Even Luke Skywalker can't always be that person. That temptation to solve the problem and avoid the potential pain ends up causing a massive amount of grief. It shows that Luke is human and fallible. But all of this is moot because he doesn't even do it, just briefly considers it.
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Dec 21, 2017 01:57
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Yaws posted:What was so wrong with the simple optimistic ending in RotJ? Why do they need to ruin that? Everyone was fine with it for 35 loving years. The second it's out of Lucas' hands they undo everything in the OT. All the main characters are dead. The galaxy is in the same place it was at the beginning of a New Hope Complacency allows evil to grow?
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Dec 21, 2017 01:58
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Can we stop [spoiler]ing this movie? It would be alot easier to read what you people say if this thread didn't look like a classified document.
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Dec 21, 2017 02:01
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Tenzarin posted:Can we stop [spoiler]ing this movie? It would be alot easier to read what you people say if this thread didn't look like a classified document. Just mouse over them?
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Dec 21, 2017 02:02
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Tender Bender posted:It's not even a lapse in judgment, he didn't even do it. This feels like arguing with your girlfriend because you maybe turned your head a tiny bit when a hot girl walked by. Nah more like your nephew wakes up and sees you pointing a gun at his face.
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Dec 21, 2017 02:02
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Tenzarin posted:Can we stop [spoiler]ing this movie? It would be alot easier to read what you people say if this thread didn't look like a classified document. People still gettin' probated bruh. You can also just click the blacked out text and it'll stay unspoilered you lazy gently caress.
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Dec 21, 2017 02:03
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teagone posted:That momentary lapse in judgement is an instinctual trait he and his father shared. From what we're shown in the films, the Skywalker bloodline is highly susceptible to the temptations of the dark side. Luke already learned this lesson decades ago. It was the whole point of his character. The whole point of the OT. Luke WASN'T his dad. He rejected that. He chose death twice when tempted to turn. But no, now he's tempted to kill his teenage nephew in his sleep. What a gutless coward he turned out to be
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Dec 21, 2017 02:03
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Jewmanji posted:Nah more like your nephew wakes up and sees you pointing a gun at his face. Ok, but what if you were able to sense and clearly see that your nephew would shoot up an elementary school.
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Dec 21, 2017 02:04
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Yaws posted:Keep up I watched it the other day and I didn't notice anything different.
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Dec 21, 2017 02:04
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Serf posted:I reckon a lot of people took their bathroom break during the conversation between Luke and Yoda. I went a little after that when nothing seemed to matter in the movie and I knew I had time before the climax. teagone posted:People still gettin' probated bruh. You can also just click the blacked out text and it'll stay unspoilered you lazy gently caress. Look the movie is terrible and its almost been out a week. It would be helpful for goons to know how bad it is.
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Dec 21, 2017 02:06
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Yaws posted:Luke already learned this lesson decades ago. It was the whole point of his character. The whole point of the OT. Luke WASN'T his dad. He rejected that. He chose death twice when tempted to turn. But no, now he's tempted to kill his teenage nephew in his sleep. And he rejected it again! Did we even watch the same movie!
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Dec 21, 2017 02:19
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Yaws posted:Luke already learned this lesson decades ago. It was the whole point of his character. The whole point of the OT. Luke WASN'T his dad. He rejected that. He chose death twice when tempted to turn. But no, now he's tempted to kill his teenage nephew in his sleep. Yeah, sure, Luke rejected the dark side unlike his father, but there were clear moments in ROTJ where his anger and fury were surfacing. He was able to overcome the temptation, and does so AGAIN years later when he sensed Ben was a black hole of dark side power. I don't see what the problem is. You're also ignoring that Luke clearly sensed no good would come from Ben's training, and that Ben had already given into the darkness completely. Again, it was a Skywalker-y moment of weakness on Luke's part. I don't see how that makes him to be a gutless coward. It makes him human. The great thing about that humanizing conflict is during the crux of his arc in TLJ, Luke ascends and becomes a mythic legend in contrast.
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Dec 21, 2017 02:20
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Luke can see the future. Specifically, he could see Ben's future, and it was full of mass murdering. He had a chance to stop it. He didn't take it, but he thought about it, and he was ashamed of that thought. You're correct that it's profoundly inconsistent with Luke's morals to even consider murdering someone because of the darkness he senses in them. What you're missing is that it is nevertheless true that he did consider it. That's why he was ashamed! A major part of the premise of the film is that Luke made a significant and costly mistake, and he knows it. I can understand if you don't like that this is the premise of the movie, but it's not something that can be changed without turning it into a much different movie, one that isn't overflowing with characters making significant and costly mistakes and knowing it.
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Dec 21, 2017 02:35
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Bongo Bill posted:Luke can see the future. Specifically, he could see Ben's future, and it was full of mass murdering. You don't know that and its never said in the movie.
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Dec 21, 2017 02:38
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Tender Bender posted:And he rejected it again! Did we even watch the same movie! How many times do we need to see Luke reject the temptations of the dark side? He did it in Empire. He did it in RotJ. It was a major part of his character. His arc. It was concise and satisfying. When Luke threw down his lightsaber and declared himself a Jedi before the Emperor it was the culmination of everything he'd been through. He became the man his father should have been. A true Jedi. These sequels dispense with all of that. Now it's muddled. Now he's a coward who seemingly learned nothing in 30 years. A man who scampers off to a remote island after his failure. loving brilliant writing. I'm so much happier with this dopey addition to Lukes story!
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Dec 21, 2017 02:38
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Tenzarin posted:You don't know that and its never said in the movie. Uhhhh, did you watch the film?
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Dec 21, 2017 02:42
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Tenzarin posted:Can we stop [spoiler]ing this movie? It would be alot easier to read what you people say if this thread didn't look like a classified document. THE LITERAL FIRST WORDS IN THIS THREAD posted:
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Dec 21, 2017 02:42
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Do not post open (untagged) spoilers in this thread until a month after release. Not everyone is going to be able to see this right away. If you'd like to use untagged spoilers, please go to the spoiler thread. I'll be giving out harsher than average probations for purposefully untagged spoilers.
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jivjov posted:Uhhhh, did you watch the film? Maybe you should have paid more attention.
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Dec 21, 2017 02:44
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Tenzarin posted:Maybe you should have paid more attention. Luke literally and explicitly reveals the future he saw
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Dec 21, 2017 02:46
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Bongo Bill posted:Luke can see the future. Specifically, he could see Ben's future, and it was full of mass murdering. He had a chance to stop it. He didn't take it, but he thought about it, and he was ashamed of that thought. Who are you talking to?
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Dec 21, 2017 02:49
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Yaws posted:Who are you talking to? You, among others.
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Dec 21, 2017 02:50
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Yaws posted:How many times do we need to see Luke reject the temptations of the dark side? He did it in Empire. He did it in RotJ. It was a major part of his character. His arc. It was concise and satisfying. When Luke threw down his lightsaber and declared himself a Jedi before the Emperor it was the culmination of everything he'd been through. He became the man his father should have been. A true Jedi. Your notion that a True Jedi (and by extension, a good/moral person) means never ever feeling a moment of temptation is something. Interesting isn't the right word, but it's definitely noteworthy.
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Dec 21, 2017 02:50
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Tenzarin posted:Maybe you should have paid more attention. "I saw darkness. I sensed it building in him. I'd seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside... and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, and pain, and death, and the end of everything I love because of what he will become! And for the briefest moment, in pure instinct, I thought I could stop it! It passed, like a fleeting shadow. And I was left with shame... and with consequence. And the last thing I saw, were the eyes of a frightened boy whose master had failed him." -Luke
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Dec 21, 2017 02:54
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Tender Bender posted:Your notion that a True Jedi (and by extension, a good/moral person) means never ever feeling a moment of temptation is something. Interesting isn't the right word, but it's definitely noteworthy. Luke. Has. Been. Through. This. Already. Bongo Bill posted:You, among others. I don't even know what to say. Do you guys not see how tacked on all this Luke stuff is? How grossly unnecessary? Would these sequels suffer if none of the OT characters were in them?
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Dec 21, 2017 02:56
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Yaws posted:Would these sequels suffer if none of the OT characters were in them? Mark Hamill gives easily one of the two best performances in the movie by a mile, so yes. Yaws posted:Luke. Has. Been. Through. This. Already. He hasn't. He's faced temptation as the underdog. He hasn't faced it while holding all the cards.
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Dec 21, 2017 02:57
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teagone posted:"I saw darkness. I sensed it building in him. I'd seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside... and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, and pain, and death, and the end of everything I love because of what he will become! And for the briefest moment, in pure instinct, I thought I could stop it! It passed, like a fleeting shadow. And I was left with shame... and with consequence. And the last thing I saw, were the eyes of a frightened boy whose master had failed him." See that even more so proves my point what Bongo Bill had said Luke had said was completely different. Its a big off block of tofu in movie form, connect the dots for the director more please. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 21, 2017 02:58
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Yaws posted:How many times do we need to see Luke reject the temptations of the dark side? He did it in Empire. He did it in RotJ. It was a major part of his character. His arc. It was concise and satisfying. When Luke threw down his lightsaber and declared himself a Jedi before the Emperor it was the culmination of everything he'd been through. He became the man his father should have been. A true Jedi. He didn't reject any temptations in Empire, he actively went against the Jedi teachings to go rescue his friends. He rejected joining the dark side with Vader later because he was the enemy of his friends, had been beaten up, had his hand chopped off and was fairly traumatised at the time. There wasn't really a good temptation for him to refuse. Also in RotJ he actively flirted with the temptation while beating up his dad.
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Dec 21, 2017 02:58
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Yaws posted:I don't even know what to say. Do you guys not see how tacked on all this Luke stuff is? How grossly unnecessary? Would these sequels suffer if none of the OT characters were in them? I mean, then you'd probably be bitching about "But these characters were so significant! Why did Disney just throw them away!"
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Dec 21, 2017 02:59
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Yaws posted:I don't even know what to say. Do you guys not see how tacked on all this Luke stuff is? How grossly unnecessary? Would these sequels suffer if none of the OT characters were in them? Yes, because it continues the series-long theme of a generation fixing the mistakes of its predecessors, as well as furthering this movie's theme of mistakes in general. Again, Luke's arc does not end with ROTJ, it continues to this movie.
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Dec 21, 2017 02:59
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Yaws posted:Luke. Has. Been. Through. This. Already. You seem to be suffering from Expectations. Tenzarin posted:See that even more so proves my point what Bongo Bill had said Luke had said was completely different. Its a big off block of tofu in movie form, connect the dots for the director more please. The bolded part of the quoted line is what I was referring to.
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Dec 21, 2017 02:59
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Yaws posted:Would these sequels suffer if none of the OT characters were in them? No, they probably wouldn't (apart from the fact that Mark Hamill's performance is great). But, again: JM Coetzee posted:“I can read.”
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Dec 21, 2017 03:00
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Arist posted:Yes, because it continues the series-long theme of a generation fixing the mistakes of its predecessors, as well as furthering this movie's theme of mistakes in general. Luke had more character building in Jedi Knight Jedi Academy the video game.
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Dec 21, 2017 03:01
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Tenzarin posted:Luke had more character building in Jedi Knight Jedi Academy the video game. do you have anything to contribute beyond lame trolling and grousing about the spoiler rules or nah
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Dec 21, 2017 03:01
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