|
Lord Hydronium posted:If Star Wars only had stuff that was "necessary", it would be a lot more boring. You could probably cut half of ANH without affecting the plot or characterization, but that wouldn't make it a better movie. Canto Bight is a fun sequence, with a great sense of style to it, a lot of imaginative visuals, and that shows a side of Star Wars we rarely see (the opera in ROTS is the only other upper-crust setting I can think of), and for that alone I think it's worth it. OK so here's what I mean about first-draft WTF writing. I agree with everything you say that's positive! It's gorgeous, it expands the universe (heh), there's a lot of fun stuff there, you see meaningful interactions between characters and learn more about them. BUT The way we get to this place is to have Maz Kanata tell three of the heroes in the midst of a gunfight that there's a mysterious codecracker on Space Monaco. She can't even give a basic description of him outside of a fashion accessory and the plan they come up with is "We'll fly to this planet and then just walk around looking for someone wearing this accessory." IIRC (and I might not be!) this is after everyone is aware of the Ticking Clock and I think it's even been set at like 12 hours or something. So the plan is to fly away from the fleet, hyperspace to this other planet, land on it, and just wander around until you find the guy wearing a red flower pin. This is the plan? Just go there and walk around? They don't even know if he's actually on the planet! They don't even know if he's alive. It's nonsensical. This is what you'll risk everyone's lives on? How about a scene where they use the computer or Rebel intelligence or Leia/Holdo to find out who/what/where this guy is, that he's actually there, and then establish how long it's gonna take to get him and get him back, ratcheting up that Ticking Clock when things go bad on Canto Bight. You keep the theme of "Aw poo poo everything's a failure" but it's not based on a plan that calls the basic competency of core characters into question. Compare it to Obi-Wan sending Luke on a similar mission of importance, go find this one guy on this planet. It's made clear that ghost Obi-Wan knows, for certain, that Yoda is alive and on the planet and that Luke's connection to the Force will lead them to each other. Imagine if Obi-Wan had shown up to dying Luke and said, "You've gotta find this guy, and you can't use the Force. He's wearing green gloves, and last I heard he was living it up on Nar Shaddaa. By the way, 12 hours or Palpatine wins forever." This drives me crazy, and just like BvS, Last Jedi is completely full of these kinds of little first-draft what-the-gently caress flaws. It's just not good enough IMO and very frustrating to me that the end result suffers from it. Both BvS and TLJ are like .01 mm from genuine greatness, and the only reason they are short is because someone got lazy doing some easy math and decided to let it slide all the way to the final production. I really wish they hadn't.  Maybe I'm too nitpicky but God drat already.Oh and hey let me say something positive since I seem like I'm just making GBS threads on the movie but I'm really not: Kylo Ren was loving fantastic and the best character in the new trilogy by far. He was a legit scary badass, every time he was on screen with Rey was mesmerizing, and his little "gently caress, I got played" expression when he realized that nope, Luke ain't here! was great.
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 04:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 00:32 |
|
|
At that very moment a large Imperial spaceship was orbiting the planet Tatooine. It was the Moffship, the official space vehicle of the Imperial grand moffs-the Imperial governors of the outer regions of space. The grand moffs were holding a secret conference-a Mofference.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 04:14
|
|
|
PT6A posted:The fact that 90% of everyone who's made significant story criticisms has presented worse alternatives makes me pretty sure they actually did a good job. The RLM suggestion was Rey joins Kylo but with the demand that the war end immediately and then the next movie is about the First Order war machine reintegrating into society It's the dumbest loving idea.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 04:17
|
|
|
I thought this movie was OK. It had some great scenes. It had some terrible scenes. The storyline was kind of like a truck stuck in the mud, making alot of noise, making a mess, tyres spinning, not really going anywhere. I'm glad I saw it. I won't be rewatching it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 04:19
|
|
|
PostNouveau posted:The RLM suggestion was Rey joins Kylo but with the demand that the war end immediately and then the next movie is about the First Order war machine reintegrating into society 
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 04:20
|
|
|
Having actually seen the film now, I would say that it's interesting on its own terms, but miserable as a follow-up to its predecessors. I disagree with some of the choices made for the characters, but just from a storytelling perspective, this movie doesn’t work as a sequel. With respect to The Force Awakens, this film makes every effort to negate the that movie's plot, so that not even the basic plot elements, like the fact that the Resistance blew up the First Order's secret superweapon, have any real bearing on the events of this story or on the relationships between the different factions. It's very weird. I already didn’t think The Force Awakens was a very good film, and I guess Rian Johnson didn’t either, but it's very bizarre for me to evaluate when it comments so much on what has come before while studiously ignoring even the story that comes literally hours (?) before it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 04:24
|
|
|
Zore posted:Wow I'm shocked the dudes who wrote their 'hilarious' rape fantasies into reviews have bad opinions
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 04:25
|
|
|
Yaws posted:Of course not because Bens fall has no explanation. Anakins fall made sense. It was understandable We can do two things to examine why Ben became Kylo Ren: speculate based on assumptions and read what TFA and TLJ straight up tells us. Let's break it down. Han and Leia are Ben's parents. They're a tumultuous pair. Han's kind of an rear end in a top hat, Leia is stubborn af. In TFA, it's clear the two have separated, so obviously it didn't work out between them. I'm guessing they weren't the greatest parents to Ben. Maybe Ben spent a lot of time alone, what with Leia being so busy with her Republic duties, and Han going back to smuggling poo poo. Maybe he hated that his parents separated, and maybe Ben picked up on some of his father's not-so-moral smuggler traits before heading off to train with Luke. I can see Ben being an angry kid because of this. In TLJ, it's revealed Snoke is a really powerful force user. He's capable of bridging minds across the galaxy. Let's assume he somehow managed to sense Ben's power, so he bridged his mind with him in an attempt to seduce him to the dark side. He was an easy target, being a presumably angry kid with a bit of dark side in him. Fortunate for Snoke, Ben's bloodline was strong in the force. He saw raw, untamed power that he could manipulate into a new Vader. Let's assume that's what Snoke offered to Ben while he was training with Luke; a path to becoming even more powerful than Vader and that Luke would hold him back. It's clear in TFA that Ben had become obsessed with his pedigree, so safe to say Snoke was successful in convincing Ben to follow in the footsteps of his grandfather. What solidified Ben's descent was when he felt betrayed by his own uncle, as in TLJ, from Ben's perspective, he felt Luke wanted to murder him with no remorse because he feared his power. It was that action that led to Ben killing everyone at the Jedi Temple, igniting his path towards becoming something even more evil than Vader ever was. So, you're wrong. There's an explanation. Right there. I just typed it out! 
teagone fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Dec 21, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 04:25
|
|
|
Zoran posted:Having actually seen the film now, I would say that it's interesting on its own terms, but miserable as a follow-up to its predecessors. I disagree with some of the choices made for the characters, but just from a storytelling perspective, this movie doesn’t work as a sequel. With respect to The Force Awakens, this film makes every effort to negate the that movie's plot, so that not even the basic plot elements, like the fact that the Resistance blew up the First Order's secret superweapon, have any real bearing on the events of this story or on the relationships between the different factions. It's very weird.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 04:27
|
|
|
1stGear posted:I know I shouldn't like that the movie opens with an extended "your mom" joke during what is supposed to be a tense scene but I laughed. Yes you should, because Star Wars is wonderful and meant to be enjoyed on multiple levels.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 04:30
|
|
|
Zoran posted:Having actually seen the film now, I would say that it's interesting on its own terms, but miserable as a follow-up to its predecessors. I disagree with some of the choices made for the characters, but just from a storytelling perspective, this movie doesn’t work as a sequel. With respect to The Force Awakens, this film makes every effort to negate the that movie's plot, so that not even the basic plot elements, like the fact that the Resistance blew up the First Order's secret superweapon, have any real bearing on the events of this story or on the relationships between the different factions. It's very weird. I don't really understand how you think this? Every character is where they're at because of what happened in that movie. The only one whose TFA plot could be ignored is Poe, who I'm actually starting to hate as time goes by.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 04:31
|
|
|
LividLiquid posted:I disagree. Blowing up one superweapon isn't going to undo the fact that it loving blew up every planet in the capitol system in power at the time. To be like, "YAY! WE GOT THE TANK THAT BLEW UP OUR TOWN AND EVERYONE IN IT!" and have that just be the happy ending and now everything's fine kind of ignores that it happened to begin with. It's more like The First Order spent presumably an assload of money to nuke D.C. and succeeded, and somehow that has resulted in them gaining infinite resources and completely subjugating the USA.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 04:32
|
|
|
teagone posted:So, you're wrong. There's an explanation. Right there. I just typed it out! No you typed out what amounted to fanfiction. That poo poo was silly.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 04:37
|
|
|
Zoran posted:It's more like The First Order spent presumably an assload of money to nuke D.C. and succeeded, and somehow that has resulted in them gaining infinite resources and completely subjugating the USA. More like they nuked DC, Chicago, New York, Las Angeles and Houston and completely cowed the rest of the US into submission. Nothing they have in TLJ is on par with the poo poo they had in TFA, they're running on tatters as well. It just so happens their tatters are bigger than the Resistance. People are freaked out that they were able to do that and the Resistance did nothing. Yeah, they can't repeat the trick, but that is an enormous display of power that could crush a lot of people's hope.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 04:38
|
|
|
Yaws posted:No you typed out what amounted to fanfiction. That poo poo was silly. The only assumptions I made were Han and Leia being bad parents and Snoke bridging his mind with Ben. Everything else is straight up presented in the films lmao. Zore posted:More like they nuked DC, Chicago, New York, Las Angeles and Houston and completely cowed the rest of the US into submission. Nothing they have in TLJ is on par with the poo poo they had in TFA, they're running on tatters as well. It just so happens their tatters are bigger than the Resistance. Also, The First Order has no qualms with stripping planets of their resources to fund their military, lining the pockets of war profiteers. This was a major bit with the whole Canto Bight sequence.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 04:43
|
|
|
Zoran posted:It's more like The First Order spent presumably an assload of money to nuke D.C. and succeeded, and somehow that has resulted in them gaining infinite resources and completely subjugating the USA.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 04:44
|
|
|
LividLiquid posted:I saw the movie with my ex-wife, and the moment Maz started talking about a codebreaker, I turned to her and whispered "It's gonna' be Lando." I was pretty disappointed when it turned out to be Some Guy, but love Benicio, so I went with it, but then he just Han Solod out without coming back and saving anybody. I thought it was going to be Han (everything in the description fitted apart from the fact he's never hacked anything, but he's good at getting in and out of things) and they would have had to tell her he's dead, and it would have been really sad.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 04:45
|
|
|
teagone posted:The only assumptions I made were Han and Leia being bad parents and Snoke bridging his mind with Ben. Everything else is straight up presented in the films lmao. It's not even subtext. It's text.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 04:47
|
|
|
Goffer posted:I thought it was going to be Han (everything in the description fitted apart from the fact he's never hacked anything, but he's good at getting in and out of things) and they would have had to tell her he's dead, and it would have been really sad. Finn knew Han, so why would Maz be all hush hush about him being the codebreaker?
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 04:47
|
|
|
teagone posted:Finn knew Han, so why would Maz be all hush hush about him being the codebreaker? I thought it was going to be a joke by her, and finish her description with a "But he's already with you!" and they'd be "nope sorry he dead".
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 04:50
|
|
|
Personally I was disgusted that Maz was in a "union dispute" gunfight. Figures that she's a lovely manager.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 04:52
|
|
|
Uncle Wemus posted:Personally I was disgusted that Maz was in a "union dispute" gunfight. Figures that she's a lovely manager. Maybe she was fighting for the union against space Reaganites.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 04:54
|
|
|
Yaws posted:Again Waffle Inc. I don't want Luke Skywalker in the Sequels because he had arc in the OT. The good news is that the Luke from OT still exists, as does his arc. Anyway there were plenty of EU stories about him before messing with the character afterwards. You will always have the OT. Also the same character can have multiple arcs. There's usually more than one problem on a person's mind at different times.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 07:11
|
|
|
I think what upsets people about Luke is That he isn't Space Jesus. However, let's not forget that for ANH he was a whiny kid, in Empire he was impatient, reckless and overzealous and in ROTJ he nearly fell to the dark side when he nearly killed his own loving father If he nearly kills his Dad AFTER seeing good in him, why is it such a shock that he would kill his nephew who he had seen nothing but darkness in. BEARING IN MIND: That Luke CAN see in the future. He did it in Empire Strikes Back which is why he goes off to face Vader because of that vision. He trusts those visions too well and they always gently caress him up. So not only did he fail in training Ben, he was ashamed at exactly how bad he hosed up. That's why he hid away. It wasn't just the shame of the mistake, it was the shame of what the mistake NEARLY made him do, on top of destroying his "idol" status which he would've felt bad for. While in hiding, he came to the conclusion that the light side\dark side of the Force idea is absolute bullshit. It's not about Good\Evil, it's about balance. Ying\Yang. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. He rejected the old-fashioned Jedi code and transcended it. This model of the Force asks the question, is it okay to use evil methods to achieve good things (AKA: Killing your nephew to prevent thousands of deaths)? The old model of the force was strictly black and white. This one is much more colourful and interesting. This is why he thought the Jedi order had to end. This is why he regarded the Jedi as failures. Let's not forget that the whole "Jedi" thing turned his Dad into an absentee father who was a murderous bastard, turned Luke into a nephew-murdering dickhole, was used as bait by Obi-Wan to train him to correct HIS mistake (Which he loving lied about), and kinda completely hosed up the galaxy for a few generations. So yeah. Luke has plenty to be bitter and lovely about. Just because you were Space Jesus once, does not mean you will be Space Jesus 30 years later. People change, people make mistakes, including your mythical space jesus. All the "bad" things about Luke are behaviours we've seen in him before. But then at the end, he redeemed himself and demonstrated Jesus powers better and cooler than we've ever seen before. At the end of the movie he DID live up to the "Luke Skywalkwer" hype and had a full-blown character arc with it, which made that scene have a powerful impact. ON TOP OF THAT: (Speaking about the film overall, less spoilery but I would still be careful) This whole movie was about breaking away from mythology. That was made clear from his very first seen when he threw the lightsaber away. That's why Ren talked about destroying the past. That's why Yoda said it was time for the Jedi order to die. That's why Luke called them all failures. This whole movie was about leaving the past behind because it gets in the way of the future. And THAT is a comment on the franchise as a whole.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 07:28
|
|
|
H13 posted:
I agree with everything you said except this point. What Luke espouses in that first lesson is not a new bitterness-driven interpretation of The Force as balancing Good and Evil. On the contrary, its very much in-line with what Lucas has always said about The Force, that The Light is the natural state of things, and Evil is only that which intrudes on nature. Stuff like life and death are in balance not because one is Light and the other is Dark, but because all things natural are Light (and thus In Balance) while Dark is that which is unnatural (and unbalances those things). Luke's big line is that "The Light still exists without the Jedi, the assume otherwise is vanity," or something to that effect. His philosophical turn was not about his view of The Force, but rather about those who wield it and the dogmas and doctrines that drove them to their mistakes.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 07:35
|
|
|
Zore posted:Wow I'm shocked the dudes who wrote their 'hilarious' rape fantasies into reviews have bad opinions wait what
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 07:39
|
|
|
Sanguinia posted:I agree with everything you said except this point. I definitely need to watch it again because I wasn't expecting this sort of commentary the first time 'round. What you're saying adds up to me but there was one other line where he said: There cannot be great darkness without a great light. To be honest, I'd love a transcript of that bit to pull it apart and have fun with it. But the big line you pointed out is a big selling point to as to why he thinks The Jedi should go away
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 07:46
|
|
|
Cnut the Great posted:Basically, this isn't a Luke Skywalker or a larger story that I can get behind, but I accept that this is basically a new Star Wars series completely disconnected from the old one and it's not for me anymore. It's not the first time its happened to me. I was heavily into Marvel comics in the 80s. I went back and enjoyed the "birth" of Marvel in the 60s "Silver Age" comics just as much. But with the different climate of writers and fans that came into the 90s and beyond, both books and movies, I realized it just wasn't for me anymore. The best part it doesn't change my enjoyment of what I loved; I still enjoy reading those stories just as much as I ever did.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 14:41
|
|
|
The reason it's dumb is because there's Greek irony at play when Anakin sees the future and kills Padme in the act of becoming Darth Vader. He thinks he sees the future, and in trying to bend it to his will, he makes manifest the future he was seeing but only through a glass, darkly. His visions were correct, but simply incomplete. With Luke, we know he has much more clairvoyance about the future. He knows that Ben is going to turn to the dark side and that his fate is sealed (otherwise, if he thought there was only a chance, he wouldn't risk killing him). By attempting to murder him, he is allowing himself enact the future that he can see right in front of him. Luke knows from ROTJ that the only way to avoid that is passivity, to let life runs its course, to not control things. If he can see into the future and realize that Ben's turn to the dark side is precipitated by Luke's attempted assassination, why would he step into that tent? It would be the equivalent of Anakin have a premonition that Padme dies because of Anakin's attack on her, and yet he does it anyway. Greek tragedy only works if you think you're doing the right thing, but can't forsee the ironic consequence. In this case, Luke knows what he's doing is bad, and knows the consequence.
Jewmanji fucked around with this message at 15:12 on Dec 21, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 15:09
|
|
|
LividLiquid posted:You didn't even make up the mind bridge. We see Snoke being capable of that very act in this movie, so unless he was flying down to the Jedi temple in secret to talk to Ren, right under Luke's nose, that's explicitly what happened. And Han and Leia not being together is also explicitly stated, so while you're sort of inferring them being bad parents, Ren definitely came from a family that didn't get along and has been shown to repeatedly seek new family. Kylo says he's a bad dad, no good.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 15:17
|
|
|
business hammocks posted:Like ideally my experience of watching a movie doesn’t feature me wondering why they wrote a bunch of foxes into the movie that just wander through all the shots and sit on consoles to be ignored by everyone until a character points out a plot function the foxes serve. I just wanted to say, what?
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 15:51
|
|
|
Jewmanji posted:The reason it's dumb is because there's Greek irony at play when Anakin sees the future and kills Padme in the act of becoming Darth Vader. He thinks he sees the future, and in trying to bend it to his will, he makes manifest the future he was seeing but only through a glass, darkly. His visions were correct, but simply incomplete. With Luke, we know he has much more clairvoyance about the future. He knows that Ben is going to turn to the dark side and that his fate is sealed (otherwise, if he thought there was only a chance, he wouldn't risk killing him). By attempting to murder him, he is allowing himself enact the future that he can see right in front of him. Luke knows from ROTJ that the only way to avoid that is passivity, to let life runs its course, to not control things. If he can see into the future and realize that Ben's turn to the dark side is precipitated by Luke's attempted assassination, why would he step into that tent? It would be the equivalent of Anakin have a premonition that Padme dies because of Anakin's attack on her, and yet he does it anyway. Greek tragedy only works if you think you're doing the right thing, but can't forsee the ironic consequence. In this case, Luke knows what he's doing is bad, and knows the consequence. I don't think he sees that his attempted murder is the reason for Ben's fall, just that Ben falls and the death he will cause
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 15:51
|
|
|
MasterSlowPoke posted:I don't think he sees that his attempted murder is the reason for Ben's fall, just that Ben falls and the death he will cause But that's the paradox that Luke is aware of. No matter what he does, Ben is turning to the dark. No intervention can stop this. So he's only endangering his own soul but going down this path. Plot and character-wise, there would be an easy way to fix this. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, TLJ essentially presents Luke with the "would you go back in time and kill baby Hitler" dilemma. The movie would've been smarter to have Luke reject the decision outright because Murder 1 is bad under any circumstance. Luke does this knowing Ben will turn dark and kill millions anyway. His self-imposed exile is his way of dealing with the guilt and shame of his passivity. TLJ could then basically run the same course, with Luke finding a way to "act", while eating his cake too Jewmanji fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Dec 21, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 15:54
|
|
|
I, for one, don't understand why they ruined Luke Skywalker in the 80's sequel film. I mean, he had a character arc in Star Wars!
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 15:57
|
|
|
Danger posted:I, for one, don't understand why they ruined Luke Skywalker in the 80's sequel film. I mean, he had a character arc in Star Wars! He got ruined?
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 16:07
|
|
|
Bip Roberts posted:He got ruined? He learned to trust the Force in ANH! Why did they make him not trust the Force again in ESB??!?!?!? WHyyca n't youo see thiss/???
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 16:11
|
|
|
homullus posted:He learned to trust the Force in ANH! Why did they make him not trust the Force again in ESB??!?!?!? WHyyca n't youo see thiss/??? you sequel lovers defend this stuff with the fervor of a doubting christian in the middle ages.. just relax
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 16:14
|
|
|
I'm confused what ruined could mean though?
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 16:38
|
|
|
One parallel I did like in TLJ was between ForceTiming and the hyperspace tracking. Both new "technologies" essentially allowed the FO/Ren/Snoke to radically collapse the distance between them and The Resistance/Rey/Luke. Though I think the entire hyperspace tracking was a bit clumsily implemented and found the whole space "chase" a huge bore, it's still a neat way to bridge the two narrative strings in this movie and make the heroes feel like they've essentially been pinned with nowhere to go. Although it's interesting that Luke's reaction to this is to turn and face Ren, while the Resistance seems to find honor in not being reckless and instead retreating and regrouping.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 16:59
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 00:32 |
|
|
In the original he was a brash, immature boy just wanting adventure and eventually, through guidance, learned to trust his friends and have faith in God instead of just going and shooting blasters. They just repeated the whole story arc again! Totally unnecessary. Also did they need to turn a boyish, romantic kiss into a weirdly incestuous gesture just to be edgy?
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 16:59
|
|