|
TildeATH posted:Why are there so many “I didn’t like this movie so I went and watched it again” people? Who goes to watch a movie they didn’t like a second time? It’s not like it’s mass. Our culture is sick with irony and people have a hard time authentically engaging with anything.
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 20:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 15:15 |
|
|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:Tell me literally anything about yoda He’s an 800 year old frog who is very strong in the force and once mentored Obi Wan Kenobi.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 20:53
|
|
|
Vintersorg posted:He’s an 800 year old frog who is very strong in the force and once mentored Obi Wan Kenobi. he's a mystery character, he's a magical character. He has no background. He comes and he goes. He's the subversive secret mysterious stranger that enters the film and to then exits at the end. ―George Lucas, about Yoda's background
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 20:55
|
|
|
I’m just repeating the things he says in the movie.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 20:56
|
|
|
Yoda is Tom Bombadil.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 20:58
|
|
|
Bombadil with terrible metre maybe.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 20:59
|
|
|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:he's a mystery character, he's a magical character. He has no background. He comes and he goes. He's the subversive secret mysterious stranger that enters the film and to then exits at the end. We're talking about Yoda, not Snoke.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 21:00
|
|
|
Also likes granola bars
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 21:02
|
|
|
Real world answer for why people to see a mediocre Star Wars movie multiple times is they have different groups of friends that all want to see it. So maybe you go with a couple of buddies from work, then you go with that high school friend that you hardly see except when a Star Wars movie comes out, stuff like that.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 21:56
|
|
|
What I don't get about the cloaked ships though is wouldn't the First Order be constantly monitoring that and pinging them? If cloaking us a thing but can be beaten by a different kind of scan why aren't ships that big just constantly scanning for it?
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 22:02
|
|
|
because they are idiots. it wasn't the most elegant of plot devices, but, oh well.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 22:03
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:All the Resistance leaders are bougie scum, but you’re really focused on the one in pink for some reason. pictured here, 5 characters  None of these characters are clothed and visually coded as having wealth or status. Except for perhaps Leia, who evokes a sort of royal in exile, like Anastasia or something. Compare that with Holdo and she evokes status, wealth and "outsider". She's from the Hunger Games Capital, she's from the Galactic Senate. c'mon man you're just...I dunno, lying? For some reason? Ferrinus posted:It’s almost as if something happened to Poe’s standing within the Resistance - perhaps even to his formal rank. Something that would be extremely ironic for a guy who keeps fronting about visual language and reading the move and being attentive to miss. What you're talking about is dialogue and plot. Yes, Leia demotes him. Your take is that, regardless of every prior action and regardless of social "rank", Poe is immediately shut off from the "right" to have the knowledge of Holdo's plan. That's totally fine, I can go with that. What it doesn't explain is literally every other bit of strangeness with the idea that Holdo has a plan at all. It would stand to reason that on a ship with enough distrust to circulate that there is a mutiny, if Holdo was telling people about her "plan", word would get around right? So is it your assertion that Holdo told anyone else at all? And if so, it's your assertion that they did not tell *anyone* who might be willing to tell Poe? Ferrinus posted:We see the transports from close up, because the camera hovers nearby them. The star destroyers are much farther away and cannot detect them until it runs a decloaking scan. We'll have to wait until a home release to be able to post screenshots, but are you saying that the Empire doesn't have...telescopes? We know the old Star Destroyers did. Perhaps binoculars? We see Luke and Cassian use them. We know they weren't far enough away from the Star Destroyer not to be seen at all, so what was the plan here? Also why are you being so antagonistic about this discussion btw? Waffles Inc. fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Dec 21, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 22:23
|
|
|
Natural 20 posted:Commander Poe Dameron might have been. Reminds me of the bit in Thor: Ragnarok where Hela gives this big introduction and then someone says "well, whoever you are..." PriorMarcus posted:What I don't get about the cloaked ships though is wouldn't the First Order be constantly monitoring that and pinging them? If cloaking us a thing but can be beaten by a different kind of scan why aren't ships that big just constantly scanning for it? Or it could be some other equally plausible thing, since it's made up technology that doesn't exist.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 22:28
|
|
|
The specifics of the technology are irrelevant. The plot as described is that the empire only need to run the scan to find them. Why weren't they running scans normally in their DEATH TO THE REBELLION AT ALL COSTS campaign? No good reason pretty much. It could've been handled better. My half assed guess is that the transports were supposed to actually cloak visually, but the director didn't want to muss about with showing the effect and having to do establishing shots for the transports cloaking and then getting uncloaked, especially with regards to showing the transports getting blown up.quote:I think a legit large section of the (nerd) movie going populace for real cannot conceive of the concept of a male protagonist actually being demoted. Like, that poo poo just bounced right off.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 22:36
|
|
|
Waffles Inc. posted:pictured here, 5 characters Only one of these is a Resistance leader: the magical princess. quote:What you're talking about is dialogue and plot. Yes, Leia demotes him. Your take is that, regardless of every prior action and regardless of social "rank", Poe is immediately shut off from the "right" to have the knowledge of Holdo's plan. That's totally fine, I can go with that. Yes, that is obvious from the movie. She did not tell people of low rank or whom she personally didn’t like or trust. quote:We'll have to wait until a home release to be able to post screenshots, but are you saying that the Empire doesn't have...telescopes? We know the old Star Destroyers did. Perhaps binoculars? We see Luke and Cassian use them. We know they weren't far enough away from the Star Destroyer not to be seen at all, so what was the plan here? The Star Destroyers were unable to notice the escaping transports until they performed a decloaking scan. quote:Also why are you being so antagonistic about this discussion btw? I find you hypocritical and disingenuous.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 22:48
|
|
|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:Tell me literally anything about yoda We don't know much biographical information, but we know a hell of a lot about his worldview. We know who Yoda is, even if we don't know where he comes from.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 22:49
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:I find you hypocritical and disingenuous. Aight then. Cool talk.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 22:56
|
|
|
I agree that Holdo is coded as a different class to Poe but that is to make the audience suspicious of her. But the movie defiantly vindicates her, replacing her at the climax of Poe's storyline with Leia to flat out tell the audience that Poe is wrong. They then give Holdo a heroic sacrifice. I find it uncomfortable to combine both this sorta "tactical realism" style argument with a meta-textual argument. Holdo is pretty much there to give character development for Poe. She didn't tell him the plan, because Poe needed a reason to mutiny and demonstrate his character flaw. The imperials didn't spot the transports because they didn't until they needed to give Holdo an ending. I find there is a bit of a conflict to say "It exposes her as a fraud and codes her in--and thus that failure--in bourgeoisie imagery" and then to support this argument with in universe stuff like her tactical logic or question why the imperials don't have telescopes. The writers were concerned about the story of Poe, not the relations of Holdo's faction in the rebellion or the operational capabilities of a star destroyer bridge. Hamburger Sandwich fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Dec 22, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 23:53
|
|
|
I like people saying that the message both Poe, and we the audience, are meant to take from the failure of his plan is that going off on your own, half cocked and blowing things up isn’t always the solution. His plan, which is not his, involves sitting on the ship and doing nothing while his friends silently infiltrate the ship and silently disable the tracker so that everyone can escape unnoticed. It doesn’t fit at all into the sort of behavior that is supposed to be censured, so apparently the actually message is “listen to your superiors, because no matter how it may appear, they are smarter and know better.”
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2017 23:59
|
|
|
If the dialogue were muted we would know - Leia puts Holdo in command over Pod, this angers him - Holdo looks intentionally much more upper class than everyone else including the literal royalty - Poe freaks out at the monitor showing the ships fueling or something - There’s a mutiny which Holdo defeats, then Leia shoots Poe - The ships launch and are blown out of the sky almost immediately, to Holdo’s shock - Holdo hyper suicides There’s nothing inconsistent about using visual language alone, friend. Movies are a visual medium first, and of the many things not established visually—or even foreshadowed visually or in a motif—is some sort of cloak. In fact we get no indication whatsoever of how her plan might work. We see ships leave the big ship plain as day in open space. When the falcon disappears in Empire (the other time cloaking is mentioned) we get, without dialogue - falcon flies at the bridge and everyone reacts to getting buzzed by the ship - man yelling at other man - original man looking confused and angry - leia and Han talking - the falcon sneakily attached out of site to the ship before it floats away Turn the audio on and you have a guy be surprised about a cloak because he cannot see the ship Waffles Inc. fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Dec 22, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2017 00:00
|
|
|
Waffles Inc. posted:Aight then. Cool talk. It IS cool, and now that I'm off my phone I can go into more depth. You've repeatedly made the claim that the movie's dialogue and visuals don't agree - that if we were to watch a silent, non-subtitled version of TLJ, no one could possibly draw the conclusion that Poe has been demoted, that Holdo is competent, or that Holdo's plan would have been effective. This is totally wrong, and my guess as to why you'd think so is that you were so thoroughly duped by the visual tricks that TLJ plays during its beginning - the way it frames its scenes such that they effectively take place from Poe's perspective - that you were unable to snap out of it and realize the full significance of what you were looking at at the end. It is, of course, a major theme of the movie that different people have seemingly-contradictory views of the same events not because they're looking at some kind of indecipherable quantum free-for-all but because each is limited by their own perspective. However, the truth is never actually unknowable - there's always an ending in which people finally confront what they inferred/foresaw and see how it squares with what their enemies inferred/foresaw. So, in silent TLJ, we cut back and forth from Poe and Leia yelling silently, then we see almost all of Poe's following ships die, and we see Leia see them die on the screen, and then we see some kind of angry confrontation between Poe and Leia which ends with Leia making some kind of unanswerable point and Poe looking downcast or displeased. Later, Holdo shows up, and Poe approaches her, but Holdo responds with some kind of coolness and muted hostility, as is seen in her body language and facial expression, and ultimately leaves Poe behind despite the fact that he's trying to follow her around. We haven't heard a snatch of dialogue, but we know that Poe is somehow on the social back foot with regards to both Leia and Holdo, but is more willing to be insistent and combative with Holdo. It's notable that Holdo looks different from the other leaders. They're all dressed fancy rather than being clad in workmanlike mechanic/pilot/whatever gear, but most of them look like buttoned-up Imperial officers or, as you say, royalty in exile, while Holdo looks like she's shown up to a ball or something. So Holdo is set visually apart from the rest of the leadership, all of whom evoke wealth and class but not all of whom evoke femininity. Later, we know Poe's up to no good because he's sneaking around, helping other people sneak around, literally pointing guns at Holdo and her allies, etc. We see him talking on the comm with Finn (the image cuts between the two) and we see the shady drunken-looking criminal type riding around with Finn and Rose perk up at something. Later, when Rose's crew is caught, we see the criminal suddenly cleaned up, uniformed, carrying big boxes, and being escorted cheerfully by the First Order goons. So something Poe said is linked to this criminal, and this criminal has evidently sold everyone out. Back on the Resistance vessel, we see Leia wake up, blow Poe the gently caress out, and then meet back up with Holdo. Leia and Holdo regard each other warmly. They're both standing outside a bunch of transports (matching the transports seen on viewscreens in an earlier scene in which Poe confronts Holdo about... something, we can't hear the dialogue... and is visibly shut down and frustrated). Leia heads out onto the transports while Holdo stays behind. Leia approves, therefore, of Holdo's plan; all along, Poe was mutinying not only against Holdo, who he's totally at odds with, but Leia, who seems to disagree with but respect. So the transports are flying away from their mother ship at an angle which points them away from the star destroyers and towards a different planet. They've already got a fair distance away from the big ship but the big ship continues to soak up all the First Order laser fire - nothing's happening to the transports. Back on the destroyer's deck, some First Order high-ups do something with their console. They look surprised and elated. We see the Star Destroyer stop firing on Holdo's ship and start blowing the transports out of the sky. Something allowed them to discover the fleeing transports (the fleeing transports that Leia herself has entrusted her life to, mind), and now that they have they feel free to ignore what's been their main target the entire movie. Holdo proceeds to give her life to save these transports (which she was presumably doing anyway, since she stayed back on the ship while everyone else left). There's a perspective shift here which parallels Rey and Ren both realizing how their visions of the future interlocked. First, we're stuck with Poe's limited apprehension of affairs, from which Holdo appears to be a stuck up rear end in a top hat who doesn't fit in with the rest of the leadership and is failing Leia. Then, everything changes - we realize Holdo was always executing Leia's will and that Poe was not only wrong to doubt her but directly sabotaged Holdo's and Leia's plan. We can tell this entirely from the visual language of the film, in start contrast to your claims. What strikes me is that you're so quick to throw the movie under the bus in defense of one particular character in the movie. Most people respond poorly to criticism of characters in movies they like, but you're like "hahaha nooo, it may SEEM like Poe killed dozens if not hundreds of people through his self-centered chauvinism, but that's just because this movie is misleading and incoherent," Waffles Inc. posted:- The ships launch and are blown out of the sky almost immediately, to Holdo’s shock See, this is why I called you disingenuous.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2017 00:05
|
|
|
Panadol posted:I agree that Holdo is coded as a different class to Poe but that is to make the audience suspicious of her. But the movie defiantly vindicates her, replacing her at the climax of Poe's storyline with Leia to flat out tell the audience that Poe is wrong. They then give Holdo a heroic sacrifice. It also serves as basic drama .
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2017 00:11
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:It IS cool, and now that I'm off my phone I can go into more depth. You've repeatedly made the claim that the movie's dialogue and visuals don't agree - that if we were to watch a silent, non-subtitled version of TLJ, no one could possibly draw the conclusion that Poe has been demoted, that Holdo is competent, or that Holdo's plan would have been effective. This is totally wrong, and my guess as to why you'd think so is that you were so thoroughly duped by the visual tricks that TLJ plays during its beginning - the way it frames its scenes such that they effectively take place from Poe's perspective - that you were unable to snap out of it and realize the full significance of what you were looking at at the end. It is, of course, a major theme of the movie that different people have seemingly-contradictory views of the same events not because they're looking at some kind of indecipherable quantum free-for-all but because each is limited by their own perspective. However, the truth is never actually unknowable - there's always an ending in which people finally confront what they inferred/foresaw and see how it squares with what their enemies inferred/foresaw. I mean this is borderline gish gallop length and the forum format makes it hard to go like, I dunno, one by one over every point. We obviously disagree, that's clear, but what we seem to disagree on isn't like, the actual happenings, but our interpretation of what the visuals represent. I also disagree with the idea that I was "unable to snap out of it..." because I...own my own brain and am aware of my thoughts. That's just one thing. And y'know disagreement is fine! There's no trophy to be won or anything. In the end, we also both like the movie so that's the real prize I suppose
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2017 00:13
|
|
|
TildeATH posted:Why are there so many “I didn’t like this movie so I went and watched it again” people? Who goes to watch a movie they didn’t like a second time? It’s not like it’s mass. For me personally it’s because I’m a huge Star Wars fan and also I greatly prefer liking things to not liking them. I thought it was bad the first time, but I wanted to see it again because I very much wanted to think it was good (and because my girlfriend wanted to see it and had to work opening night). The insane amount of gaslighting going on on social media by people who thought the movie was brilliant also made me reasonably question whether I thought it was bad the first time because I was just disappointed, and wanted to evaluate it a second time with the arguments and glowing feedback/defenses I’d seen in mind, because, again, I really wanted to like it and have my mind changed. I thought it was even worse the second time, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2017 01:00
|
|
|
I love it and I feel the same way as you do. I do Not understand the hate whatsoever and it's straight up like that loving dress that people couldn't tell what color it is. I cannot see TLJ being "bad". I barely see the flaws. I've thought about this movie almost nonstop since it came out and things do not add up for me.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2017 01:30
|
|
|
Old Kentucky Shark posted:Well, in real life, stealth planes aren't invisible to radar, they just have diffusive radar signatures that mimic the type of thing (clouds, weather phenomena) that tends to get filtered out by radar systems because setting your systems to be that sensitive yields too many false positives to be useful. Some stealth planes have don't have structural designs that diffuse radar signals but have electronic deception equipment that "white noises" radar pulses. I would imagine that's what "cloaking" in Star Wars is. Also, the best stealth can be defeated by shooting a lot of guns in that direction, which is what I think allowed the FO to defeat the Resistance's cloaking attempt. They knew what vector they'd take, so just point every turbolaser along that path and fire until the guns overheat.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2017 01:46
|
|
|
CelticPredator posted:I love it and I feel the same way as you do. I do TLJ is clearly gold and white. The people who see it as blue and black are loving retarded. AndyElusive fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Dec 22, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2017 01:50
|
|
|
Did Luke say that 4 of his students were unaccounted for after Ben went nuts?
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2017 01:59
|
|
|
CelticPredator posted:I love it and I feel the same way as you do. I do I basically agree with this. I see some minor flaws with pacing and some of the jokes that weren't well-timed and didn't really land, but overall I can't imagine a scenario in which I saw that movie, and left the theatre feeling disappointed with it on any level. Reading all the criticism and thinking about it more, I still can't feel disappointed in it. I assume the people who thought it was awful feel the same way, and it's just a really, really divisive film. It's like the people who disliked The Hateful Eight. I understand why it's divisive, but ultimately I'm glad it was made exactly the way it was even if some people didn't like it. It's better to make a movie that creates strong feelings in both directions, rather than releasing a lukewarm turd that everyone's apathetic about.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2017 02:18
|
|
|
SimonCat posted:Did Luke say that 4 of his students were unaccounted for after Ben went nuts? Pretty sure he said “a few,” or something similar. Probably supposed to be the Knights of Ren, who are still completely absent so far.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2017 02:19
|
|
|
Zas posted:i haven't seen a anyone have a problem with the fact that granny alien is like 'there is only 1 hacker in the galaxy who can do what you want' and it turns out not only is there another one, but he's the guy who happens to be hanging out in the same cell as finn and rose. and also he can get out of that cell whenever he wants, so why is he there? I was so expecting a line about how he lost his insignia in a bet at the Dabo table that I still think it happened.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2017 02:32
|
|
|
One thought I had is that there’s also a huge chasm between disliking an officer/their plan, and believing that officer is so irredeemably bad that they will actually sabotage a good plan once it is presented to them. It’s not unreasonable for Poe to question if Holdo’s plan is flawed, but leaping to the idea that this decorated Admiral is so incredible incompetent that she would shut down an excellent plan once it’s presented to her is vastly more reflective of Poe’s biases and shortcomings.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2017 02:34
|
|
|
I honestly think that there are some subtexts like that which Rian tried to get in. Poe not having trust in leadership to present his plan, or the obvious just being too brash to not respect rank and order, while Holdo really doesn't think she has to tell him anything. I'm just really disappointed that literally like every plot point needs to be thought about and discussed, not to get a deeper appreciation but to just make SENSE of it all. It's just a disappointing movie and we ain't getting that back.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2017 02:37
|
|
|
YOLOsubmarine posted:I like people saying that the message both Poe, and we the audience, are meant to take from the failure of his plan is that going off on your own, half cocked and blowing things up isn’t always the solution. It’s not about blind obedience to superiors, it’s about not immediately dismissing people because they don’t for your personal concept of what a leader looks like. Poe didn’t have to blindly follow Holdo, he just had to share his plan with her and not assume she was Ths Worst Ever based off her looks and a fleeting interaction. We see that when Holdo and Leia learn of the plan, they’re interested, and likely would have been initially.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2017 02:47
|
|
|
I think part of the message is that we learn alongside Poe that the heroes aren't going to put the galaxy on their back and do it all themselves. The guys on the poster aren't going to save the day, they need to rely on the other characters too. They'll be the spark that lights the fire but they're not the fire itself. It pairs nicely with that final scene. It's very deliberate that Holdo seems like a typical incompetent/malicious bureaucrat. We recognize the trope and think that Poe needs to undermine her, just as he does.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2017 02:51
|
|
|
I think I figured out something major. People complain that the way the space ships act makes no sense in space. Everyone is upset that the fighters fly around like WWII airplanes, and how do the bombs just fall out of the bombers, and why do the turbo laser shots arc up and fall back down like artillery shells. it's because every ship in Star Wars emits such a large amount of gravity. The gravity around the large ships allow the fighters to swoop around them. They orbit around the ship and then break off when they want to change directions. They release the bombs and they get pulled down to the dreadnought because it has such a powerful gravitational field. The turbolasers act like artillery shells because they just have to shoot in the general direction of the other ship and it gets pulled in via gravity.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2017 03:03
|
|
|
Hello, I'm a 35 year old that's watched the OT roughly 5000 times, hated the prequels, and approached the disney movies as a mostly disinterested observer. I'm posting for the first time in x number of years to say that I haaaated the jokes in this movie. I did not totally hate the film itself, although the things I liked most about it— the technical qualities and the obvious care and craft that went into the production—ultimately frustrate me because it's all in the service of a film that's essentially derivative. Anyway I really think this might have been one of the least (intentionally) funny movies I've ever seen. I wasn't the only person who thought it was was corny and played out when Obama did the jay-z shoulder brush off in the middle of a speech. That was in 2008. To put a joke that references a dated pop culture thing in the climax of a movie like this is just so, so weird and bad. The same thing goes for the Jerky Boys prank call scene in the opening. References to things!! These are not jokes that belong in Star Wars. There are no call centres in this fantastic science fantasy universe. Poe Dameron does not sit on hold waiting to talk to his cable provider. He doesn't post funny links in the group chat. He goes on adventures and cracks wise, but his jokes don't depend on references to things from pop culture like he's a sniveling 22 year old dork that reads these forums. I like that Rian Johnson clearly hates Star Wars fans and is trying to provoke them and troll them with this film. Star Wars fans are losers and I hate them. There's a mean undercurrent to this film, there's stuff in here that's meant to make you feel stupid for liking these movies. That's very humorous to think and post about, but it doesn't make the movie funny. Also I read back through Rian Johnson's twitter feed for a long time and the guy is not funny.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2017 03:08
|
|
|
Zoran posted:Pretty sure he said “a few,” or something similar. Probably supposed to be the Knights of Ren, who are still completely absent so far. I have no doubt in some future Star Wars Story film or book there will be at minimum one surviving Jedi student in hiding somewhere
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2017 03:13
|
|
|
This film is so utterly perfect on a metatextual level that I couldn't give a poo poo if it's got some wonky story elements. Who cares if DJ's inclusion in the story is a bit convenient or whatever when the film has so much to say about Star Wars, toxic fandom, and franchise legacy and says it all so well? It's such a wonderful contrast to the emptiness of Force Awakens. Plus it even has an interesting POV on war that's always glossed over in SW films.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2017 03:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 15:15 |
|
|
feedmyleg posted:This film is so utterly perfect on a metatextual level that I couldn't give a poo poo if it's got some wonky story elements. Who cares if DJ's inclusion in the story is a bit convenient or whatever when the film has so much to say and says it all so well? It's such a wonderful contrast to the emptiness of Force Awakens. I love when he takes Han Solos money and doesn't care about lessons.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2017 03:31
|
|