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So the anti-independence parties totaled 52% of the vote, but are the minority in parliament.
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Dec 21, 2017 23:56
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I hope they go for the troll option and elect Puigdemont as President but he remains in Belgium with no executive powers.
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Dec 22, 2017 00:02
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Glad to see democracy has yet again settled a divisive issue successfully.
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Dec 22, 2017 00:07
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beer_war posted:So the anti-independence parties totaled 52% of the vote, but are the minority in parliament. En Comú Podem is neither pro nor anti-independence, hth It's more like an abstention - putting pro-independence votes comfortably ahead of anti-independence votes by over 200.000 out of 7m votes.
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Dec 22, 2017 00:09
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You are arguing semantics. Call them the "partidos no independentistas", if you prefer, my point still stands.
beer_war fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Dec 22, 2017 |
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Dec 22, 2017 00:22
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beer_war posted:You are arguing semantics instead of addressing the underlying point. The underlying point being...? The fact that the independentist bloc has gained in votes not only wrt the last elections but also the 1st of October? That underlying point? Hell, give us two more years of PP and C's striking down every law the regional govt tries to pass and the godless separatists will be comfortably over the 50% threshold. e: also, since you edited your post since I started drafting my reply - not being explicitly in favor of independence come hell or high water is still very far (and more than just semantically, thanks) from being unionist. I assume you aren't from here since you don't seem to grasp that...? ee: Anyway here's my two hot takes from the election: 1) every last soul who voted for the C's-PSC-PP bloc fundamentally doesn't care that the country has political prisoners so long as it serves their interests, and 2) in an election engineered to make things as difficult as possible for independentist parties they still kept an absolute majority in parliament which, loving lol. WAIT 3) Albiol will never stand for another election and he knows it which, double lol Altivia fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Dec 22, 2017 |
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Dec 22, 2017 00:28
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Angry Lobster posted:I hope they go for the troll option and elect Puigdemont as President but he remains in Belgium with no executive powers. Isn't the troll option the dude in jail? That seems like a better PR move than the guy hiding in Belgium
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Dec 22, 2017 00:30
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icantfindaname posted:Isn't the troll option the dude in jail? That seems like a better PR move than the guy hiding in Belgium We can have both, Puigdemont elected president, nominates Junqueras as vice president(in jail), Puigdemont moves back to Spain, gets arrested and put in jail, PR ensures. The whole affair would be silly as a Monthy Python sketch.
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Dec 22, 2017 00:38
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Altivia posted:The underlying point being...? If a single party or several parties voted into parliament obtain an absolute majority of the votes, they should hold an absolute majority in said parliament. Do you agree with that sentiment?
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Dec 22, 2017 00:39
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Angry Lobster posted:We can have both, Puigdemont elected president, nominates Junqueras as vice president(in jail), Puigdemont moves back to Spain, gets arrested and put in jail, PR ensures. The whole affair would be silly as a Monthy Python sketch. This is the comedy option and I am 100% for it as long as it ends in Marta Rovira rising above to seize power in a House of Cards-esque move beer_war posted:If a single party or several parties voted into parliament obtain an absolute majority of the votes, they should hold an absolute majority in said parliament. Do you agree with that sentiment? But the unionist bloc received 1.8m votes compared to the independentist bloc's 2m, so...?
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Dec 22, 2017 00:40
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Altivia posted:En Comú Podem is neither pro nor anti-independence, hth Also Podem is pro-referendum which gives, at least the desire for a referendum a strong majority.
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Dec 22, 2017 00:43
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Here's some guy in the NYT ranting about how the independence referendum was a Putin-inspired coup https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/16/opinion/sunday/spain-catalonia-europe.html
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Dec 22, 2017 00:44
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RIP Spain, killed by its own stupidity.
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Dec 22, 2017 00:50
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Altivia posted:But the unionist bloc received 1.8m votes compared to the independentist bloc's 2m, so...? I'll take that as a "No" then.
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Dec 22, 2017 00:55
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beer_war posted:I'll take that as a "No" then. They got fewer votes and that translates to fewer seats in parliament and I'm fine with that, sue me I guess  Oh also as bonus lols, the law that decides how votes translate to seats is, in fact, not a Catalan law, but a Spanish one. And a law that C's itself has supported on a national level! But I guess now it's unfair for, uh, reasons.
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Dec 22, 2017 00:59
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Altivia posted:They got fewer votes and that translates to fewer seats in parliament and I'm fine with that, sue me I guess They got like .1-.2% less which let's be honest isn't much of a movement. I think the hit from the CUP made up most of the difference.
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Dec 22, 2017 01:10
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Ardennes posted:They got like .1-.2% less which let's be honest isn't much of a movement. I think the hit from the CUP made up most of the difference. True, the CUP is one of the big losers tonight (alongside the Comuns and the PP, hahahaha), though arguably the only reason they had so many votes in the last elections to begin with was because of people who were pro-independence but couldn't bring themselves to vote for CiU, so eh. Certainly C's has gotten bigger gains this election than other parties due to higher participation, but it's telling that even that couldn't push them past the finish line. All in all I was expecting the worst and got considerably better results so I'm sleeping soundly tonight.
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Dec 22, 2017 01:16
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So is there going to be another independence push/EU collapse or not?
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Dec 22, 2017 01:40
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I was looking at this vote distribution map and something caught my attention http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/elecciones/20171221/433800521201/mapa-resultados-elecciones-catalanas-21d.html C's has won in nearly all the relevant industrial centers and also in a lot of the services-heavy population centers. Also, in turn, they are the most populated areas. I maybe wrong, but basically this aligns with the traditional unequality distribution of income in Catalonia, there are of course exceptions. It's funny how a lot of pro-independence areas rely heavily on the EU. We are hosed and I love every minute of it. Angry Lobster fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Dec 22, 2017 |
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Dec 22, 2017 01:54
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beer_war posted:If a single party or several parties voted into parliament obtain an absolute majority of the votes, they should hold an absolute majority in said parliament. Do you agree with that sentiment? You're saying you're opposed to representative democracy. Which system would you suggest as an alternative?
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Dec 22, 2017 07:34
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Phlegmish posted:You're saying you're opposed to representative democracy. Which system would you suggest as an alternative? eternal beer war, duh?
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Dec 22, 2017 07:38
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Ardennes posted:Also Podem is pro-referendum which gives, at least the desire for a referendum a strong majority. Additionally, PSC is firmly opposed to Article 155 and the PP's perennial attempts to challenge Catalan autonomy. These elections might not have been a strong endorsement of independence (though neither were the separatists punished), but they're definitely a signal that the 2006 statute should be fully reinstated.
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Dec 22, 2017 07:53
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Phlegmish posted:You're saying you're opposed to representative democracy. Which system would you suggest as an alternative?  I want the share of seats to more closely match the share of votes each party got, i.e. I want the results to be more representative, not less. Honestly, I would have thought this to be a fairly uncontroversial position. Having a single constituency instead of four would be a start: http://www.eldiario.es/politica/grafico-Parlament-Catalunya-1-D_0_719878501.html Altivia posted:Oh also as bonus lols, the law that decides how votes translate to seats is, in fact, not a Catalan law, but a Spanish one. All the more reason to fix it, then. beer_war fucked around with this message at 09:11 on Dec 22, 2017 |
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Dec 22, 2017 08:58
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Phlegmish posted:You're saying you're opposed to representative democracy. Which system would you suggest as an alternative? I'm assuming their issue is the algorithm for proportional representation... but given that Catalonia uses PR with the d'Hondt method it's basically the most optimal form of PR?
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Dec 22, 2017 11:04
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Aren't the people who're for independence from Spain pro-EU?
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Dec 22, 2017 12:25
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Cingulate posted:Aren't the people who're for independence from Spain pro-EU? They are for the "have our cake and eat it" version of the EU like the UK Brexit crowd.
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Dec 22, 2017 12:29
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It's funny because the actual reason why Catalan independentism became a mainstream issue is that Catalan politicians started blaming Madrid for austerity measures imposed by Brussels.
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Dec 22, 2017 12:35
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Isn't it interesting how often brutal austerity leads to nationalist independence movements. If only there was some kind of historical precedent to serve as a warning as to the dangers of fuelling this, one recently even... *gaze slowly slides over 1991 Yugoslavia*
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Dec 22, 2017 12:38
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Tesseraction posted:Isn't it interesting how often brutal austerity leads to nationalist independence movements. If only there was some kind of historical precedent to serve as a warning as to the dangers of fuelling this, one recently even... *gaze slowly slides over 1991 Yugoslavia* It's almost like boosting GDP by shirking job security is not a consequence-free economic wonder-drug.
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Dec 22, 2017 12:45
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Tesseraction posted:Isn't it interesting how often brutal austerity leads to nationalist independence movements. If only there was some kind of historical precedent to serve as a warning as to the dangers of fuelling this, one recently even... *gaze slowly slides over 1991 Yugoslavia* Yes you can plaster over internal conflict with deficit spending - until your credit card runs out.
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Dec 22, 2017 13:00
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GaussianCopula posted:Yes you can plaster over internal conflict with deficit spending - until your credit card runs out. I'm in Slovenia, as a nation we're several times more in debt than the entirety of Yugoslavia combined was when we left it. And we're better off than most ex-yu. Tell me, how is this even possible, if a credit card is supposed to run out? It's almost as if, as long as you pretend to be a capitalist state, people don't care and just give you more money anyway.
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Dec 22, 2017 13:07
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lol the old national debt is equivalent to a credit card analogy, and of course it's GC's special blend of ignorance and ideology that pushes it. Why am I not surprised?
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Dec 22, 2017 13:16
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Cerebral Bore posted:lol the old national debt is equivalent to a credit card analogy, and of course it's GC's special blend of ignorance and ideology that pushes it. Why am I not surprised? As a Swabian housewife, I
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Dec 22, 2017 13:23
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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GaussianCopula posted:Yes you can plaster over internal conflict with deficit spending - until your credit card runs out. Well I suppose you'd rather the 1930s repeats but with Muslims this time, but some of us have brighter hopes for humanity.
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Dec 22, 2017 13:27
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Money was a mistake
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Dec 22, 2017 13:29
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GaussianCopula posted:Yes you can plaster over internal conflict with deficit spending - until your credit card runs out. you realise using "national credit card" disqualifies the speaker entirely from having a worthwhile point on econ, right? You can't honestly believe the most brazenly stupid economic metaphor of all time has value in this argument? Capital has nowhere to go and desperately needs to be used, perhaps by investing in productivity growth and industrial/automation upgrades which will directly boost GDP and tax intake. That is how actual economies function as opposed to whatever economically illiterate fantasies about nation-states with militaries are just like a house tosspots will repeat endlessly as the west fails to grow since 1980. Got to spend money to make money. Spangly A fucked around with this message at 13:35 on Dec 22, 2017 |
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Dec 22, 2017 13:32
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Truga posted:Money was a mistake Money is a good servant but a terrible master. The tragedy of Europe is that we're led by people for whom money is to be obeyed rather than commanded.
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Dec 22, 2017 14:37
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beer_war posted:All the more reason to fix it, then. Great idea! Unfortunately this law benefits the PP and PSOE too much on a national level so the only way we can change it is if Catalonia becomes independent :v I'm still just chuffed that the independentist parties had to campaign with one leader in """preventative jail""" and the other in exile under threat of the same and they still managed to add 100k more votes to their total than the last elections. I'm happy to settle back and wait at this point.
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Dec 22, 2017 15:38
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Truga posted:I'm in Slovenia, as a nation we're several times more in debt than the entirety of Yugoslavia combined was when we left it. And we're better off than most ex-yu. Tell me, how is this even possible, if a credit card is supposed to run out? Same reason, I think, as to why things like the South Seas Bubble from the start of the 18th century continued to this day to be paid off piecemeal by British taxpayers, likely will for another century or so and never gets called in full, while the ones who took part in it/came up with it were allowed to keep their titles and estates, even though that poo poo was demonstrably one of the biggest con artist lies to have ever existed on this planet and which could've brought the whole empire to its knees had justice been done. So long as you pretend to be an 'economically viable' place for investors, you can keep playing the farse of capitalism for as long as you like. Tako to gre.
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Dec 22, 2017 17:06
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Altivia posted:Great idea! Unfortunately this law benefits the PP and PSOE too much on a national level so the only way we can change it is if Catalonia becomes independent :v Nah, being in jail was 75% of their campaign.
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Dec 22, 2017 17:28
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