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To be slightly more productive... When I'm talking about marxism I don't give a gently caress about the ideology as an abstract thing. I'm talking about the particular brand of idiocy that pervades the Chilean left right now at the invitation of politicians who really, really should have known better. When I talk about Communists it's literally the communist party of Chile, which was invited into government by the Bachelet administration. I don't give a gently caress about giant abstract idiologies so much as the idiots here on the ground.
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Dec 22, 2017 15:20
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I want to thank you so much for proving my point. It's rare that we can talk about something and then have the perfect demonstration of it.
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Dec 22, 2017 16:26
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joepinetree posted:I want to thank you so much for proving my point. It's rare that we can talk about something and then have the perfect demonstration of it. What is the shallow symbolic exercise here? I think you're making my point about intellectual masturbation pretty well, too.
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Dec 22, 2017 16:40
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"i'm not ideological, i just wish there were no leftists and that the country implemented austerity policy, that's not ideological, that's just rational. also replying to posts on a forum is masturbating"
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Dec 22, 2017 16:57
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Try not to engage too heavily with a person who would consider it a budgetary priority to bring about a notable increase in the military's aerial transportation capability but anything else wiffs of marxism.
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Dec 22, 2017 17:33
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bagual posted:"i'm not ideological, i just wish there were no leftists and that the country implemented austerity policy, that's not ideological, that's just rational. also replying to posts on a forum is masturbating" As a matter of decency you should not want people who support a murderous ideology like communism to be part of a government. The problem is that plenty of people in this thread haven't gotten the memo that marxism is, and has always been, a cancer.
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Dec 22, 2017 18:04
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As a matter of decency, I want those poor murderers and torturers who are in suffering old age in prison to go back to their homes. All they did was kill some marxists, which as we all know are cancerous people, so it is only humanitarian to be lenient with them.
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Dec 22, 2017 18:32
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Non Serviam posted:As a matter of decency you should not want people who support a murderous ideology like communism to be part of a government. The problem is that plenty of people in this thread haven't gotten the memo that marxism is, and has always been, a cancer. Ah yes, it was Allendle who did all the murdering and disappearing and not Pinochet.
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Dec 22, 2017 18:36
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Hes pretty right ,communism is a cancer,the problem is capitalism is super space aids cancer.
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Dec 22, 2017 18:45
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it's so weird to see people talking about murderous ideologies when almost every single country in this loving continent had a murderous left or right wing dictatorship. it's like in Brazil where people are more focused on calling the guerillas fighting the dictatorship terrorists than the soldiers that murdered and tortured thousands, while completely censoring freedom of speech. I really wish people would discuss more democracy and less their idealized view of certain ideologies. left or right, what hosed and killed most people in South America was imposed governments without democracy. what will break economies is all the corruption we had in the last few centuries, not trying to implement social welfare. starting to feel like we deserve our lot. you can be sure I'll be peacing the hell out of this thread when I eventually leave the country.
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Dec 22, 2017 19:10
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also can the Chileans in the thread cut to the chase andelaborate how Marxism is a real threat in Chile compared to other countries? I'm pretty sure it would help move this discussion forward if you have reasonable arguments. what are their plans? what have they done? what are they planning on doing?
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Dec 22, 2017 19:19
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Non Serviam posted:As a matter of decency you should not want people who support a murderous ideology like communism to be part of a government. The problem is that plenty of people in this thread haven't gotten the memo that marxism is, and has always been, a cancer. yeah france had the communist party in the ruling coalition 3 times since WW2 and look how that turned out for them, the horror
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Dec 22, 2017 19:31
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I mean, all of south america countries have a few skinheads killing black people and LGBTQ people, also have very powerful representative blocks from churches creating literal theocracies with tax breaks for their churches. In Brazil, the center right government (after being responsible for billions of dollars stolen from national institutions) are eroding decades of workers rights, basically the only good thing the country has and making it so nobody will ever retire. As a non-white atheist worker, those affects me directly and will have a serious impact on my quality of life. Please try to explain as plainly as possible the things on the same level or worse that marxists have done/are trying to do in Chile, please. I'm not a marxist, nor a communist, barely a leftist, but this is sounding a lot like red scare to me. I mean, our countries are so hosed with the current people in power that I'm having trouble figuring out what could be even worse here.
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Dec 22, 2017 19:39
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GimmickMan posted:As a matter of decency, I want those poor murderers and torturers who are in suffering old age in prison to go back to their homes. All they did was kill some marxists, which as we all know are cancerous people, so it is only humanitarian to be lenient with them. Yeah, I do. I believe human rights apply to everyone, including people accused or convicted of crimes.
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Dec 22, 2017 19:52
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nerdz posted:also can the Chileans in the thread cut to the chase andelaborate how Marxism is a real threat in Chile compared to other countries? I'm pretty sure it would help move this discussion forward if you have reasonable arguments. what are their plans? what have they done? what are they planning on doing? None, it is as much of a boogeyman as it is in the USA or in Brazil. See a connection yet?
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Dec 22, 2017 20:29
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qnqnx posted:None, it is as much of a boogeyman as it is in the USA or in Brazil. See a connection yet? The fact that they have openly states that they want a communist government to take place, including elimination of private property, is an actual problem. They might as well say that certain races should be eliminated or that heretics should be burned.
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Dec 22, 2017 20:33
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ChainsawCharlie posted:Hes pretty right ,communism is a cancer,the problem is capitalism is super space aids cancer. It's the only system that has brought the most prosperity but, sure, keep on keeping on.
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Dec 22, 2017 20:41
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Non Serviam posted:The fact that they have openly states that they want a communist government to take place, including elimination of private property, is an actual problem. They might as well say that certain races should be eliminated or that heretics should be burned. What have been their victories on this regard? Were they to become a majority, how would they implement this? How would they become a majority/win elections without even accomplishing something other that "FULL ON COMMUNISM NOW" in the meantime? Can you give me some examples their other proposals, considering they are probably a very small minority in government? How have they affected your day to day life directly like my examples did, besides scary ideas? nerdz fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Dec 22, 2017 |
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Dec 22, 2017 21:06
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nerdz posted:What have been their victories on this regard? Were they to become a majority, how would they implement this? How would they become a majority/win elections without even accomplishing something other that "FULL ON COMMUNISM NOW" in the meantime? Is your argument that a poisonous ideology is not problem as long as they're in the minority?
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Dec 22, 2017 21:11
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America has neo-nazis running about in small groups but the biggest threat to the nation is still the threat of billionaires further hijacking our politics and civil society to benefit themselves. Worrying about a few cranks while a larger threat exists is pretty 🤔
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Dec 22, 2017 21:24
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Zikan posted:America has neo-nazis running about in small groups but the biggest threat to the nation is still the threat of billionaires further hijacking our politics and civil society to benefit themselves. Well, the alt right crowd is pretty small in the large scheme of things, but people lost their poo poo over tiki torches. I think that same logic allows others to look very negatively the fact that literal communists participate in a government. Regardless, I see that this has turned into a pointless derail.
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Dec 22, 2017 21:34
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Non Serviam posted:Is your argument that a poisonous ideology is not problem as long as they're in the minority? What I'm saying is that IMO a healthy democracy is an ecosystem of clashing ideas. They must coexist to keep each other in check. As long as they're not pushing criminal ideas, you'll get at most more wealth distribution programs. You're allowed to be scared of these dudes (unreasonably imo but that's besides the point), since people who think like you are keeping them in check and questioning their beliefs. Just like they are fighting back against corporate abuse and to keep worker's right and a strong welfare program. I'm allowed to be scared of people fighting to kill my retirement, my paid vacation and my wife's maternity leave just as you are afraid of the communists taking away your property. Diabetics are allowed to be afraid of Pharma companies raising the price of Insuline by 600% and dying without it. Guess which of those are already happening. To me it really sounds like you're panicking about something you barely understand or even affects you. There's no way a communist revolution will ever happen again. I'm pretty sure you're not a billionaire or even a millionaire, so the "communist" policies like healthcare, welfare and worker's rights would help you more than you'd like to admit, and even more than you'd like to admit how much you use and benefit from them already.
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Dec 22, 2017 22:00
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I’m gonna be honest I don’t think the program of the Communist Party of Chile is to round up and murder a bunch of people
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Dec 22, 2017 22:01
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You'd hope they do after reading the posts here.
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Dec 22, 2017 22:03
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Plutonis posted:You'd hope they do after reading the posts here. As much as I resent what you just said, that was a pretty funny response. Well done
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Dec 22, 2017 22:32
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Non Serviam posted:The fact that they have openly states that they want a communist government to take place, including elimination of private property, is an actual problem. They might as well say that certain races should be eliminated or that heretics should be burned. Corporations are people, my friends
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Dec 22, 2017 22:57
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wateroverfire posted:You're just laying the blame at the feet of colonialism or the US or whatever else instead of dumbass ideology. its not the only thing, but it is a really big part of why we're so hosed. like, almost fundamentally so
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Dec 23, 2017 00:03
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"Colonialism isn't relevant to Latin America" is a pretty wild take. I don't really understand how someone could say Marxism is more so.
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Dec 23, 2017 00:07
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Badger of Basra posted:"Colonialism isn't relevant to Latin America" is a pretty wild take. I don't really understand how someone could say Marxism is more so. for real
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Dec 23, 2017 00:09
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the latin american guy at work is very, very quiet & works SUPER hard even though he doesn't have to anymore since he is a full-time guy now
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Dec 24, 2017 04:20
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A3th3r posted:the latin american guy at work is very, very quiet & works SUPER hard even though he doesn't have to anymore since he is a full-time guy now you're welcome, gringo he's up to something
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Dec 24, 2017 10:01
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Seasons greetings from Perú, Fujimori* Is free, the end is near. *Yes, Alberto "let's make a kill squad to kill left leaning urban dwellers to hurt rural full on communist terrorists" Fujimori.
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Dec 25, 2017 02:20
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Also the guy who was sterilising the rural women, wasn't he?
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Dec 25, 2017 02:34
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zocio posted:Seasons greetings from Perú, Fujimori* Is free, the end is near. Lmao. How close is Keiko to take over if PPK gets owned.
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Dec 25, 2017 02:46
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Plutonis posted:Lmao. How close is Keiko to take over if PPK gets owned. Farther than last week, her father is the historic leader of her party and loves his son Kenji more than he loves miss Piggy; if I was a betting man I'd bet there will be alot of turmoil inside Fuerza Popular (Fujimori's party, whose members identify themselves as fujimoristas, and they don't mean Keiko Fujimori) before the waters clear, but as a two time losing presidential candidate Keiko should have less pull than Kenji "most voted Congressman and the reason both PPK is still president and Alberto is free" Fujimori.
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Dec 25, 2017 02:59
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ChainsawCharlie posted:Hes pretty right ,communism is a cancer,the problem is capitalism is super space aids cancer. "Everything they told us about communism was a lie. Unfortunately, everything they told us about Capitalism was true." is an old joke and still a good one. ArfJason posted:its not the only thing, but it is a really big part of why we're so hosed. like, almost fundamentally so I mean ok...let's accept that for the sake of argument. How does that help in terms of unfucking things? Like we say "colonialism was to blame!" and then what? nerdz posted:What have been their victories on this regard? Were they to become a majority, how would they implement this? How would they become a majority/win elections without even accomplishing something other that "FULL ON COMMUNISM NOW" in the meantime? Just for example, taken from the below. http://www.pcchile.cl/2017/12/05/co...a-constitucion/ quote:1) Una Nueva Constitución en cuyo centro soberano se ubique el pueblo chileno deliberando democráticamente su futuro, es la madre de las batallas para la superación de un periodo histórico en chile marcado por el pinochetismo, el neoliberalismo y la sustracción al pueblo de su soberanía y derecho a decidir. Es una tarea de reivindicación histórica en la cual llamamos a toda la sociedad y a las fuerzas democráticas y progresistas en su conjunto a sacudirnos por fin de uno de los principales soportes institucionales de la dictadura y la derecha. El camino que ha señalado el Partido Comunista para la superación de esta constitución antidemocrática no es otro que el de la Asamblea Constituyente. This is priority number one, guaranteed to be an absolute disaster and promote social upheval. These are priorities not only of the communist party in Chile but of many leftist parties. Some things I actually agree with. =P Reforming pensions and health are good things. However, I don't trust the communists or the leftist coalition to do it with an eye toward not breaking the economy. It's not enough to have good intentions. Reducing the work week from 45 hours to 40 or even 35 I'd get behind, too. As far as personal stuff...there are protests and marches basically every week and tear gas lingers for at least a day. =/ Also I once parked my car in the wrong place and it almost got fire bombed. I could do with less of that. Also Merry Christmas my goons.
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Dec 26, 2017 13:26
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I'm honestly pissed as gently caress about the Fujimori poo poo. It was a lose-lose Situation. I do not think what Kucynzki did was deserving of removal from office in the first place. He's a lukewarm neoliberal but lukewarm neoliberals have been proven to have good track record in some South America countries. The left in Peru: like most of South America is joke. Humalla was a milquetoast reformer at best and completely ineffective at worst. If Kucynzki had been removed I'd be almost sure that he'd have been replaced by a fujimorista quite soon. He clearly exchanged staying in power for pardoning Fujimori. That buys the antifuji coalition some time and drove division into the Fuji party . But in and of itself it is disgusting and makes me sick to my stomach. There was no win situation here.
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Dec 26, 2017 23:26
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wateroverfire posted:I mean ok...let's accept that for the sake of argument. How does that help in terms of unfucking things? Like we say "colonialism was to blame!" and then what? Please point to the part where i said acknowledging the consequences of colonialims would automatically solve all our issues.
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Dec 27, 2017 00:25
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wateroverfire posted:I mean ok...let's accept that for the sake of argument. How does that help in terms of unfucking things? Like we say "colonialism was to blame!" and then what? It's a stronger premise to start from than "communism was to blame!" which could therefore lead to actual solutions.
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Dec 27, 2017 05:42
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wateroverfire posted:I mean ok...let's accept that for the sake of argument. How does that help in terms of unfucking things? Like we say "colonialism was to blame!" and then what? I can give you one example: how about killing a significant chunk of a country's sovereign debt? now before you go  again, I will walk it through this time. Have you heard about odious debt?odious debt is the one accrued and effected in a way that it is politically illegitimate (it has no popular consent) and resulted in no benefit to society (no tangible improvement has been made through its use) before the creation of the actual legal grounding and framework that formalized the concept, its most famous application was the repudiation of the colonial debt of the thirteen colonies that formed the United States, in which the UK argued after the war that they owed trading debts accrued during the colonial period as if they were independent: the US argued back saying that the debt was not American per se, for they were under British sovereignty and thus under their government, as well that such debt was put much more to the UK's benefit rather than the colonies. France, Spain, the Netherlands and a couple of other countries agreed and thus the United States came to be without a completely destroyed monetary balance, which was our case (I can elaborate in another post). Sure, a lot of those just wanted to stab the UK, but created a very important historical precedent. lets jump to today. The United Nations, the World Trade Organization, the international courts at the Hague and such others are in full accordance with the existence of odious debt, especially by the way of colonialism, imperialism and tyranny, and they are willing to hear and deal about it. so how does that work for us? well, the country goes and asks the international community that it is unjustly saddled with odious debt, things are accounted for and then the international arbiters say "gee you are right" and that part of the debt is destroyed: for the most relevant case, see Rafael Correa's action in that regard (imho it was by far one of the best all-time efforts of the 'left' in the continent). easy, right? actually, it is, but the real pain in the rear end is the accounting part - in order to check what part of the debt is odious and how much it is, you need to audit the sovereign debt, and this is why a lot of countries like ours do not invoke colonialism as a political argument for the sake of doing something practical - because it would gently caress up a lot of assholes auditing the sovereign debt would involve doing a systematic effort to see the details of what is owed, by whom, where did it start, in what conditions, who is paying the country, who is not, who is cheating, who has paid too much and needs to be compensated, who decided to speculate against the country by using its own debt against it, etc as it turns out, we have a loving huge disproportional population of rentiers compared to the rest of the world that, because of the ideological denial of the contemporary relevance of colonialism, effectively sequester rent from the population at large by being invested in sovereign debt titles and burden their countries with massive debt that could be easily dealt with if that isn't a practical policy effort using colonialism as an argument idk what to tell you dead gay comedy forums fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Dec 27, 2017 |
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Dec 27, 2017 15:50
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