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Cerebral Bore posted:So in other words they're idiots? I don't see how it would work, but then again, I don't see how Republicans pass and Trump signs any DACA legislation at all. I know Trump said he supports DACA but I think that was another lie. Maybe Trump would do it for the Wall, but should Democrats trade the Wall for DACA?l
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Dec 22, 2017 23:53
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Badger of Basra posted:Shutting down the government is a tactic and DACA is a good reason to use it imo Treating the government as some weak needless thing and making it's services random and untrustworthy by mostly punishing rank and file random government workers is like the most right wing plan imaginable. It doesn't hurt your enemies in any way to shut down the government, they generally hate and seek to shut down the exact list of things that would be shut down.
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Dec 22, 2017 23:54
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Especially considering the chance congress funds "essential services" because Democrats won't want to be on the hook for sending the FBI and FAA home, this shutdown could last months once it starts. Trump doesn't need federal funds to do what he wants in office, so why would he concede anything?
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Dec 22, 2017 23:57
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If you shut down the government, no more ICE either! Sounds good to me.
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Dec 23, 2017 00:00
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My perfect plan to harm the republicans: lets shut down the smithsonian and halt food inspection programs, next we will stop political asylum applications for immigrants and end WIC. We will definitely have them on the ropes then! The right wing will be BEGGING to do what we ask once the head start program becomes unfunded and the people processing social security applications are working without paychecks!
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Dec 23, 2017 00:03
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DACA is popular. CHIP is popular. Things the government does are popular. Threatening and following through with a shut down where the Republicans will have to explicitly say they are against CHIP and DACA is good politics. It is one of the few instances where the politically expedient thing to do and the right thing to do are the same.
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Dec 23, 2017 00:04
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I'm super certain that all those Dreamers and the communities they belong to will be super understanding and totally accept these impeccable reasons as for why the Dems had to throw them under the bus, and I'm sure that immigrant communities will just be bursting with enthusiasm to reward the Dems at the ballot box for their principled decision to not even try.
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Dec 23, 2017 00:04
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:My perfect plan to harm the republicans: lets shut down the smithsonian and halt food inspection programs, next we will stop political asylum applications for immigrants and end WIC. We will definitely have them on the ropes then! The right wing will be BEGGING to do what we ask once the head start program becomes unfunded and the people processing social security applications are working without paychecks! Are you suggesting that if Democrats shut down the government the Republicans will keep it shut down in perpetuity?
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Dec 23, 2017 00:05
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Badger of Basra posted:If you shut down the government, no more ICE either! Sounds good to me. See that's why this sucks, ICE will certainly continue to arrest people but you won't be able to get a Social Security appointment.
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Dec 23, 2017 00:05
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...m=.fbc2df11f3e3 It's such a no brainer for those democrats to support a shutdown! We kill children, republicans back down, because we all know republicans love children getting government health care.
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Dec 23, 2017 00:06
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Badger of Basra posted:Are you suggesting that if Democrats shut down the government the Republicans will keep it shut down in perpetuity? The suggestion that the GOP are stealth anarchists is kind of a new one, tbf.
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Dec 23, 2017 00:06
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Cerebral Bore posted:The suggestion that the GOP are stealth anarchists is kind of a new one, tbf. Dismantling the federal government has been the GOP goal for decades. Don't confuse destruction of the federal government for anarchism, lest the sheriff and his boys have to teach you a lesson in respect.
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Dec 23, 2017 00:08
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...m=.fbc2df11f3e3 As opposed to dreamers and kids on CHIP, which we are totally OK with throwing under the bus.
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Dec 23, 2017 00:08
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Like, have none of you brain geniuses even considered that if the GOP was so chafing at the bit to shut down the government as you say they could do it themselves.
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Dec 23, 2017 00:09
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Cerebral Bore posted:The suggestion that the GOP are stealth anarchists is kind of a new one, tbf. The suggestion is that the parts of the government legally marked as "non essensial" is a lot more democratic darlings than republican ones. And a threat of "government shutdown (but mostly the stuff republicans didn't like anyway)" is not the ultra super trump card against a republican congress that it is against the a democratic congress.
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Dec 23, 2017 00:10
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:My perfect plan to harm the republicans: lets shut down the smithsonian and halt food inspection programs, next we will stop political asylum applications for immigrants and end WIC. We will definitely have them on the ropes then! The right wing will be BEGGING to do what we ask once the head start program becomes unfunded and the people processing social security applications are working without paychecks! Don't forget about processing federal student loan discharges from the Corinthian Colleges fiasco. If they government is shutdown there is no one to deny the loan discharge. Badger of Basra posted:If you shut down the government, no more ICE either! Sounds good to me. Most of homeland security is immune to a shutdown.
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Dec 23, 2017 00:11
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Cerebral Bore posted:Like, have none of you brain geniuses even considered that if the GOP was so chafing at the bit to shut down the government as you say they could do it themselves. You're right, they're trying to just shutdown the part they hate first and keep the handouts for big business at the same time. But if they don't get that, some of the House caucus is already calling for a shutdown.
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Dec 23, 2017 00:11
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Cerebral Bore posted:Like, have none of you brain geniuses even considered that if the GOP was so chafing at the bit to shut down the government as you say they could do it themselves. Why have the Republicans shutdown the government when the Democrats promised to shut down the government for you?
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Dec 23, 2017 00:12
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I think Democrats should still try and shut down the government rather than pass a permanent CR or budget without DACA, but I have no illusions that this shutdown will be clearly blamed on Republicans.
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Dec 23, 2017 00:15
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karthun posted:Why have the Republicans shutdown the government when the Democrats promised to shut down the government for you? I know you're dumb, but I didn't know you were this dumb. They'd do it because they want it to happen. Which is what you lot are literally claiming. Trabisnikof posted:You're right, they're trying to just shutdown the part they hate first and keep the handouts for big business at the same time. But if they don't get that, some of the House caucus is already calling for a shutdown. The fact that they haven't done it yet means that the leadership doesn't think it's worth it. Which means the threat of a shutdown gives the dems leverage. This shouldn't be hard to grasp.
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Dec 23, 2017 00:17
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karthun posted:
The list of "things the government shutdown actually harms" and the list of "stuff republicans want to shut down" are like a near perfect circle. Like the only thing I can find that isn't on the list of "things republicans would cut anyway" is that eventually the government shutdown would impact the ability to get certain gun licences.
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Dec 23, 2017 00:18
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A government shutdown would be bad. Not finding a solution for DACA and CHIP would be worse.
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Dec 23, 2017 00:19
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:The list of "things the government shutdown actually harms" and the list of "stuff republicans want to shut down" are like a near perfect circle. So why haven't they done it already, ya dingus?
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Dec 23, 2017 00:23
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"We'll let 9 million children lose their healthcare and we will destroy the lives of close to a million young adults, but that is a small price to pay to avoid the risk of maybe being partially blamed for a government shutdown" I sincerely think that if democrats are this spineless that you will see several third party candidates running against democrats who go along with it. Hell, there is already a ton of democrats pissed off that things were kicked down the road to january. joepinetree fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Dec 23, 2017 |
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Dec 23, 2017 00:23
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I can't imagine the marginal voter who changes their vote because of a government shutdown in a world where Roy Moore got 49.5% of the vote.
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Dec 23, 2017 00:25
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"Republicans just worked together to pass this gigantic corporate wealth-care tax bill with absolutely no form of Democrat help at any step of the way. Now they want to blame Democrats because they can't vote to keep the government running or save DACA and CHIP?" This poo poo is not hard...if you actually want to fight for it.
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Dec 23, 2017 00:26
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Ron Jeremy posted:I can't imagine the marginal voter who changes their vote because of a government shutdown in a world where Roy Moore got 49.5% of the vote. It's not about changing votes, it's about turning out your base. Depressing your base by not fighting for important things reduces turnout.
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Dec 23, 2017 00:28
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One day the Democrats will say to the Republicans "in exchange for loving over this vulnerable group, I hope that you will extend to us the benefit of not loving over this other vulnerable group." The Republicans will then say "Thank you for your show of good faith. I appreciate it and will do this favor for you." They will then firmly shake hands, look each other in the eye, and smile because they have both crossed the aisle this day in the interests of the greater good. It is this dream - this beautiful, ephemeral dream - that motivates John McDemocrat to get up each morning. That some day a future will come when a bunch of rich old white men will join hands and act for the benefit of all rich old white men, regardless of political creed.
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Dec 23, 2017 00:38
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joepinetree posted:"We'll let 9 million children lose their healthcare and we will destroy the lives of close to a million young adults, but that is a small price to pay to avoid the risk of maybe being partially blamed for a government shutdown" CHIP is safe for six months If the Dems don't fight for DACA in January I'll be annoyed but that ain't goddamn nothing
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Dec 23, 2017 00:42
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GreyjoyBastard posted:CHIP is safe for six months I thought so too but if the numbers previously mentioned a page back are correct than CHIP was funded for "6 months" with 2 months worth of money.
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Dec 23, 2017 00:45
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joepinetree posted:The CR deal allocated 2.85 billion for CHIP. The yearly budget for CHIP is 14.5 billion. The 2.85 billion are supposed to cover the period starting on October 1st. So yes, it is just as much of a priority. This looks more like it got retroactively funded until now-ish.
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Dec 23, 2017 00:46
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GreyjoyBastard posted:CHIP is safe for six months We literally just went over this: joepinetree posted:The CR deal allocated 2.85 billion for CHIP. The yearly budget for CHIP is 14.5 billion. The 2.85 billion are supposed to cover the period starting on October 1st. So yes, it is just as much of a priority. The "six months" statement is meaningless.
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Dec 23, 2017 00:46
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karthun posted:Don't forget about processing federal student loan discharges from the Corinthian Colleges fiasco. If they government is shutdown there is no one to deny the loan discharge. you're sort of stretching the definition of immune a shutdown that lasts for long enough means essential employees are coming to work with a paycheck delayed until whenever Congress gets its poo poo together and nonessential employees, of whom there are some in Homeland Security, are furloughed One week isn't that big a deal for most agencies, one or two months are an entirely different animal, and if it somehow goes longer you'd see some serious bleeding of personnel, both the ones who go "I would like to pay rent and eat" and the ones who start looking harder at that private sector revolving door because reliability is suddenly less of a government perk
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Dec 23, 2017 00:47
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Cerebral Bore posted:So why haven't they done it already, ya dingus? The whole existence of this whole weird mechanism where we need to vote to pay the funding we already agreed to pay that doesn't exist in any other country is because republicans like this mechanism because the labels of "essential" and "non essential" lined up with their pre-existing wishes so well. Republicans wanting this to happen and it to be democrats that shut down or defund their own programs is like the main thing they want to happen.
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Dec 23, 2017 00:47
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joepinetree posted:We literally just went over this: Guess I missed that, darn. Carry on talking about how Dems are a waste.
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Dec 23, 2017 00:48
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GreyjoyBastard posted:you're sort of stretching the definition of immune They are literally immune, ICE is marked as essential and will continue getting funding. It's the people processing social security applications that are "non essensial"
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Dec 23, 2017 00:49
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:They are literally immune, ICE is marked as essential and will continue getting funding. It's the people processing social security applications that are "non essensial" Not exactly. They are guaranteed their back pay when the shutdown ends but if the agency runs out of payroll money they get paid in IOUs until then. The difference between essential and non essential is that the former keep working and the latter get furloughed (historically but not bindingly with back pay).
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Dec 23, 2017 00:52
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:I thought so too but if the numbers previously mentioned a page back are correct than CHIP was funded for "6 months" with 2 months worth of money. Which means it is funded for 1 month longer than the rest of the government.
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Dec 23, 2017 01:21
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lmao shutting down the government to protect CHIP and DACA is a right wing plot now? Never change liberals, never change
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Dec 23, 2017 01:25
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Raskolnikov38 posted:lmao shutting down the government to protect CHIP and DACA is a right wing plot now? Never change liberals, never change I mean, it is 100% because of the right wing that we're faced with this false choice to begin with. We should loving be able to do CHIP and DACA without shutting the government down. It is right wing insanity that has forced such tactics.
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Dec 23, 2017 01:29
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