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cheetah7071 posted:I sorta agree Jiyva could use some love. My personal vote is that Jiyva's niche is as an equalizer--a god that can serve as a crutch to weak characters but doesn't do very much for strong characters. I really like that niche but would be perfectly fine seeing her made less annoying within that niche. TSO isn't a great early god but he doesn't actively hinder your character development the way Jiyva does. Jiyva also makes the game harder for your character in a way that is difficult for the player to understand. You won't realize just how much experience and loot you are missing due to the slime spawning. IMO Jiyva shouldn't be a temple god but there should be a guaranteed altar spawning at the slime entrance. By that point the passive slime spawning won't take any appreciable amount of exp.
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Dec 23, 2017 08:58
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Jiyva ain't a good god to choose early but it should be your choice to act a fool if ya want.
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Dec 23, 2017 10:38
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Captain Monkey posted:This. The amount of content crawl refuses to just spawn each game is hilarious, especially when they keep taking things out in addition to it. What's going to be left to do in the NG+ dungeon if you spawn everything every time?
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Dec 23, 2017 17:04
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Internet Kraken posted:TSO isn't a great early god but he doesn't actively hinder your character development the way Jiyva does. Jiyva also makes the game harder for your character in a way that is difficult for the player to understand. You won't realize just how much experience and loot you are missing due to the slime spawning. This, the current mode of "going Jivya" is to get to the slime entrance in Lair and hope it has an altar. Then if you are a spriggan and have blink scrolls you can still (almost never) make the altar on Slime:6. Usually you have a spriggan or troll doing this because of the advantages they get from an early-mid Jivya outweigh the disadvantages. And let's not forget the other reason Jiyva is not a temple god and is usually placed on Slime:6 - otherwise, the god provides a free rune and a free rune vault full of loot! Making the altar spawn 100% would still indicate this is not a recommended early-game god while allowing people to take it without having to clear Slime. J should never be a temple god because of the relative power of slimes to early dungeon monsters and the importance of early-game consumables and other pickups, as well the fact that the god provides a FREE RUNE which also means free entry into Vaults. Really, your jelly buddy power shouldn't apply in Slime which is ruled by TRJ who considers you an existential threat. edit: Also, don't like the way Jiyva juggles stats? Change it! Make it into an advantage! This is GoonCrawl! Araganzar fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Dec 23, 2017 |
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Dec 23, 2017 17:20
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Samog posted:I had a few thoughts while working my way through the survey: This man has good ideas. The only thing I might add is that the Seraph castle now will, iirc, always spawn the 5th pan rune if you haven't found it yet so it is a random rune holder.
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Dec 23, 2017 17:58
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People posted:Conjurations, Poison Magic, and other Magic Stuff I kinda slightly agree that Conjurations is a little weird just looking at the spell list, but removing it opens a can of worms with aptitudes - for example, Vampires, who are bad at Conjurations but have some pretty good elemental aptitudes, encouraging them to use mainly support, summoning, etc spells. Or be me and rely on their high Hexes aptitude to use Dazzling Spray and Fulminant Prism. By the way Fulminant Prism is kind of my best friend and I don't really have any idea where it would fit without Conjurations... Still, there would be a lot of things like that to consider there. Also, Ignite Poison is super fun, Poison Magic should be buffed not killed. I don't really know hellcrawl but blindly mirroring things from it seems kinda bleh. On Bolts, they may be samey, but it's kind of reassuring to have a workhorse spell type like that regardless of what school you pick, and they could be used to highlight the differences between damage types if you do go that route. Also Bolt of Draining is like the only straight damage Necromancy spell, don't take that from Necromancy specialists, and yeah, Lightning Bolt is fun too with the bouncing. Mimingless fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Dec 23, 2017 |
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Dec 23, 2017 18:00
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I realize the thread is a little more focused on the thought of a gooncrawl fork right now, but I had an idea about the mutation rework that I wanted to hear opinions on. How about changing malmutate to just give increasing levels of contamination (instead of possibly crippling your character in an instant)? This way, malmutate at least has some counterplay to it - you probably won't get yellow/red contamination from a single source of malmutate unless you leave it alive in line of sight for too long, and you can expend consumables in the form of cancellation or mutation potions to counteract the effects if you get unlucky or are dealing with a larger threat when a malmutating enemy shows up.
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Dec 23, 2017 18:19
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It's good flavour with Shining Eyes (chaotic eyeball) and Orbs of Fire (malevolent sentient miniature sun), at least. Would have said cacodemons as well as I envisioned them as the Doom type but as the fat yellow thing..not so much. It would be fun to have it 1:1 with monsters, where after getting contaminated too much by Irradiate they start glowing with Inner Fire except it explodes into raw magical energy like some of the contaminated effects do to the player.
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Dec 23, 2017 19:54
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I am Otis posted:Did the survey from my phone. Dude this is awesome. Thanks for the initiative. Can't wait to see what happens. Same, FloodKiller is the best. Also if fulsome distillation comes back with the new mutation system... Oh man thinking about gnolls with evaporation makes me giddy.
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Dec 23, 2017 20:43
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TSO is good
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Dec 23, 2017 20:47
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the devs hate the idea of poison magic having acid spells. but poison magic should have acid spells
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Dec 23, 2017 20:49
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The devs also hate the idea of boulder beetles, high elves, Yiuf collecting hammers, and fun.
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Dec 23, 2017 20:52
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if choosing to walk into a mutagenic cloud is too nethacky then all of the currently-existing mutagenic cloud setpieces should be scrubbed from the game
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Dec 24, 2017 01:25
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Samog posted:if choosing to walk into a mutagenic cloud is too nethacky then all of the currently-existing mutagenic cloud setpieces should be scrubbed from the game I like nethacky stuff.
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Dec 24, 2017 02:44
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Samog posted:if choosing to walk into a mutagenic cloud is too nethacky then all of the currently-existing mutagenic cloud setpieces should be scrubbed from the game Mutagenic clouds are heavily weighted towards giving you bad mutations. They are considered a hazard and intentionally standing in them is never a good idea.
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Dec 24, 2017 02:45
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Last reminder to vote in the (current) Gooncrawl feature pool: https://goo.gl/forms/dUNVjwRSWNHMQvvi2 I'm closing it tomorrow morning to compile results. Get your vote in if you want a stake in the outcome! I'm also going through to get all the feature requests added to the wiki, so let me know if I miss anything! As it turns out, GitHub doesn't have any setting for wiki contributor permissions between "has commit access to the code" and "anyone with a GitHub account", so it's easier to just do it myself at the moment to avoid any potential vandalism to either the wiki or the codebase. In the future, I'm probably going to need help from a couple trusted volunteers to keep up with them (especially once the crowdsourced design discussion starts kicking in for complex features). However, I'm not going to ask for it until I at least have an initial version out for proof that Gooncrawl actually exists and is worth volunteering for.
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Dec 24, 2017 03:32
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Thank you again floodkiller for even attempting this! Forking is no small effort, nevermind actually implementing half of these changes. Props! edit: I feel odd for a moment
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Dec 24, 2017 03:46
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Forking is done by heroes
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Dec 24, 2017 06:22
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Floodkiller posted:Last reminder to vote in the (current) Gooncrawl feature pool: disc of storms?
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Dec 24, 2017 07:44
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code:It really fills in the hole that Ne has early on in regards to dealing with non-living enemies, since it doesn't care about rN at all and works just fine on undead, demons, and constructs. The constriction also makes it a decent escape tool, and the spell ignores friendlies when cast, which when combined with the smite-targeting means you can cast it while hiding behind an undead army and pin enemies in place while your minions tear them to pieces. It also does very good damage if the constriction lasts long enough, and in general serves as a strong spell that you will keep casting the entire game. Do keep in mind that it's dual-school in a combination that otherwise has zero overlap (Necromancy/Earth), so it's much higher in investment to get going than the rest of the Ne starting spellbook, and a good chunk of that exp will otherwise go to waste unless you can find other earth magic spells to work with it. There's probably some cool combos you can do as well with experimentation, like using it to keep enemies stuck inside nasty clouds, or keeping an enemy pinned down to try and ensure an orb of destruction will hit them. As for the actual character, my initial plans of going full spellcaster were shot when I found the Moon Troll Leather Armor on D:4, and decided to go for a more hybrid approach instead to take advantage of the spirit shield effect. I pain-branded a quick blade as my Kiku capstone gift, and it turns out that a quick blade of pain is more stupid than any other short blade in the game (except the Arc Blade) in regards to damage output. In the event that wasn't enough, I had a elec-branded rapier and the autumn katana to work with as well. I did, however, do something monumentally stupid this game: I attempted Tomb for the third and final rune. Yes, I was pretty much the character combination designed for that to be vaguely feasible (two separate layers of torment resistance and a good chance for death curses to do nothing at all, while not being undead so not having to worry about holy-branded melee from bennu or dispel undead), but the reality is that not being able to stair dance was brutal even with all the advantages I had. While I had the ability to deal with greater mummies effectively thanks to Dispel Undead, but I didn't have the MP to kill more than one or maybe two at a time, and I ended up needing to burn through a good chunk of consumables even with most of the major dangers not being a significant problem. I even had to ignore the loot on the final floor (save for a book of Unlife I happened to be standing on while waiting for a teleport to go off), grab the rune, and then get the hell out via lucky teleports. I later came back for the three items still on the ground that actually were relevant (a hat, a randart ring that ended up being junk, and the ziggurat figurine) and it was still a horrible mess. Never. Doing. That. Again. The usual necromancer problem of having basically nothing to deal with orbs of fire still cropped up though, since they're immune to ZOMBIE HANDS like they are basically everything else in the school (you can hit them with Infestation surprisingly, that's about it), so I had to try and kill them via corpse drops from Kiku + Simulacrum and praying I got enough of a swarm to kill one before they finished fireballing them all away. Outside of that, endgame was easy since I had so many ways to tear enemy groups of living enemies apart, and dispel undead tore ancient liches apart fast enough for them to not even be threatening. http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/Lightli/morgue-Lightli-20171224-023443.txt Character log if anyone cares the Orb of Zot fucked around with this message at 11:17 on Dec 24, 2017 |
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Dec 24, 2017 11:05
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I love Floodkiller's initiative here, gooncrawl is an awesome idea. Gonna be real interesting to see how it'll pan out, hopefully there'll be enough support for it to take off. I'd offer to help coding-wise, but these days I don't really have any energy for coding outside of what I do at work. If that should change, I'd love giving a hand. Meanwhile, I'm still stuck playing 0.17 because gently caress mutation.
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Dec 24, 2017 11:27
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That new spell sounds loving baller, though.
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Dec 24, 2017 11:39
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it does lets steal it
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Dec 24, 2017 12:39
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Survey is closed! I'm compiling the results now, and I'll post the review when it's ready. In the meantime, instead of immediately starting another survey to ask, I'm going to assume everybody: -wants the new Zombiehands spell in Gooncrawl -doesn't want Control Undead or Cigotuvi's Embrace removed Please post let me know if your opinion is different. In the future, I'll be merging all bug fixes, UI improvements, and minor additions (like new vaults) automatically. For new features/major feature changes (including vault changes like Tomb stairs)/feature removals, I'll be holding off on merging until they pass a poll.
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Dec 24, 2017 14:53
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New poo poo good! Old poo poo also good!
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Dec 24, 2017 15:11
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tbh having a development process where our opinions actually matter again is gonna be weird as gently caress for a while.
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Dec 24, 2017 15:12
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Floodkiller posted:Survey is closed! I'm compiling the results now, and I'll post the review when it's ready. I haven't tried the Zombiehands spell yet, but it sounds interesting. Control Undead and Cigotuvi's Embrace are spells I've memorized, used once or twice, and never use again.
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Dec 24, 2017 15:14
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Zombie hands sounds good. Control undead is boring but was basically the only way necromancers got past dangerous undead. If zombiehands turns out to be a good subtitute I wouldn't miss it but it's fine still existing. Sometimes it's funny against undead summoners, especially ones with death scarabs. Embrace is a pain in the rear end to maintain in regular gameplay but it's amazing in Zigs which fully justifies its existence for me. I wish casting it gave you a duration effect where it constantly vacuums corpses to make it actually useful outside of gaining 40+ AC/SH in Zigs, it's way too expensive to use repeatedly for a regular character. So yes to having all three. The only concern I have is spellbook bloat though.
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Dec 24, 2017 15:21
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Floodkiller owns
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Dec 24, 2017 15:41
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Control undead isn't a flashy or interesting spell but I don't really see why it existing is a problem. The new spell is WAY more interesting so if we had to pick between the two I'd go with hands but, as I always say, there isn't some arbitrary rule where we need to remove something for every new feature. Cigotuvi's embrace is a bad spell though. Its such a clunky spell that most people barely ever use it. If it were to stay it would need to be altered to be less annoying but I have no clue what that change would be.
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Dec 24, 2017 18:50
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Internet Kraken posted:Control undead isn't a flashy or interesting spell but I don't really see why it existing is a problem. The new spell is WAY more interesting so if we had to pick between the two I'd go with hands but, as I always say, there isn't some arbitrary rule where we need to remove something for every new feature. These are good opinions. Control undead is also great fun in Tomb / ziggurats.
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Dec 24, 2017 21:03
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Replace cigotuvis embrace with the hellcrawl version which is basically a sh/ac song of slaying
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Dec 24, 2017 21:10
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Internet Kraken posted:Cigotuvi's embrace is a bad spell though. Its such a clunky spell that most people barely ever use it. If it were to stay it would need to be altered to be less annoying but I have no clue what that change would be. As a permabuff it works pretty well, IMO. Aside from being a permabuff you get the benefits by killing stuff (similar to song of slaying) instead of the "pull corpses around you upon casting" thing. In a way it borrows from Ozo's and song of slaying but it's overall stronger + higher level and I think that's enough to stand out on its own. A lot of things could probably be better than DCSS Cigotivu's though. e: beaten
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Dec 24, 2017 21:13
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Agreed. Keep Control, remove or overhaul Cigo, add Zombie Hands.
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Dec 24, 2017 21:15
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Make a spell where you blink to a corpse in LOS, causing that corpse to explode for aoe damage in the process.
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Dec 24, 2017 21:23
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Ferrinus posted:Make a spell where you blink to a corpse in LOS, causing that corpse to explode for aoe damage in the process. Lvl 5 Nec/Tlc, John Carpenter's The Thing
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Dec 24, 2017 21:25
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Is hellcrawl's Citoguvi actually better than Ozocubo if you can cast both? They aren't compatible and just by reading the descriptions Ozo seemed better
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Dec 24, 2017 21:30
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It's not even just about cigo vs ozo, cigotuvi basically blows because it's always better to get some zombie allies rather than an "ok" defense boost(ally meatshields are way better than a bit more AC or whatever in terms of defense, and then they also deal good damage), and if you can have cigotuvi you can have animate dead. If it did not consume corpses it would probably be usable, because you would not have to choose between it and a stronger lower level spell.
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Dec 24, 2017 22:08
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cheetah7071 posted:Is hellcrawl's Citoguvi actually better than Ozocubo if you can cast both? They aren't compatible and just by reading the descriptions Ozo seemed better It's a matter of armor scale and distance through the game. Casters/people who will never go higher than troll or steam armor are gonna get 10+ ac from ozo. If you want to go heavier armor (or maintain flame ring which cancels out ozo) later in the game and are more constantly choppy, cito becomes more useful, especially if you have shields or reflection since it'll also crank up your SH by a fair bit. Ditto if your using a 2her I guess. Of course the real answer is just cast perma statue form  Also as a general note: if you literally want to try out basically anything in Crawl during a playthrough, pick a kobold (for smallness and perma evolution) or gnoll in hellcrawl. If you want to try out melee, go okawaru (heroism is a passive so you'll have eventually +5 to all physical skills) or Sif Muna (who in hellcrawl gives a smaller permabuff to all magic skills) and just start rocking. Slap on Casual mode for faster exp if you want, and by midlate game you can use pretty much any weapon at near full effectiveness and cast anything level 7 and below with ease Then die repeatedly to Lom Lobon chaining glaciate and tornado Archenteron fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Dec 24, 2017 |
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Dec 24, 2017 22:21
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You must not be in the habit of doing extended without TSO if you don't think much of Control Undead. It's insanely good in Tomb.
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Dec 24, 2017 22:47
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