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The whole film is about defying the conventions and letting the old pass, to stop religiously worshiping something and expecting something of what it isn't, and build new. It is much needed especially if they want Star Wars to continue rather than just wallowing in nostalgia. And like Empire before it, the movie ends similarly with what you would think would be a new status quo but with some hope. The ending of the movie has them say "We have everything we need in each other. We're here to protect and love each other. We will inspire hope even at the end and even if no one is running to help us." and it did it very well through the characters actions as we see with the child. It also exposes the orthodoxy as rotten within where even the Rebellion has someone who stuns and under threat of violence forces its members to stay and fight to their death which is horrific. It has Luke saying "Wait, what do you want me to do? Show up with a laser sword and cut poo poo down? What do you think the Force actually is, do you even understand the nature of things? What were your expectations?" and Yoda helping things long by telling Luke "It's all bullshit in the end, what matters is something different and maybe it's time for something new to come and let the old things go." It also shows the brash idiocy of someone like Poe who goes for glory and gets people killed whereas someone Roguish like Han would go and be proven right. It shows the war has gravity with Dern's Light Speed Sacrifice (which was the high point and most beautiful moment in the film) and that mature action and decision is required in a war like that. It shows that a real rogue would do what Benecio's character did, not Han's, rather than the handsome spy character they were going for. Things get resolved, Finn vs Chrome Dome, the animals and Wookie are goofy as poo poo as they should be, and this movie builds on a key relationship with Kylo Ren and Rey. Rey is nothing special, no meaningful background except a sad one but it doesn't matter as she is important now and has a future and anyone can have that potential. It shows that Luke is not some paragon but someone who faltered and like the Jedi order before him, brought forth the Sith Empire. And Snoke is ultimately meaningless shadow master that needs to pass. We still get awesome moments where Luke stands up to the Empire and does it in a clever way. He and the Falcon focus the Empire's and Ren's rage and attention away from what matters. Poe asks "Well, how did he get in? There has to be a way out" but Luke didn't since he's not there physically, he just provided some hope with his arrival to buy time and it worked out almost by chance. That this is the Force working, in the background. Now you have one Sith and one Jedi and you have some hope and inspiration. I am sad that Abrams is doing the next one as this is a great moment to build off of. I seriously am looking forward to what Rian Johnson does with his own trilogy if they give it to him. I wish he would have done the final installment too. Gatts fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Dec 24, 2017 |
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Dec 24, 2017 17:00
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Vintersorg posted:Weird complaint: It's TFA's fault that Rian did nothing with some of the stuff setup? Aren’t you paying attention? It’s a brilliant subversion of expectations to take all the dangling narrative threads and delete them. That’s master storytelling. Zoran fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Dec 24, 2017 |
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Dec 24, 2017 17:01
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Zoran posted:Aren’t you paying attention? It’s a brilliant subversion of expectations to take all the dangling narrative threads and delete them. That’s master storytelling. He didn't delete them, he resolved them.
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Dec 24, 2017 17:04
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Mr. Flunchy posted:He didn't delete them, he resolved them. In the sense that they no longer matter, yes, but TFA really is worse in light of this movie because the performances and all the obvious foreshadowing are largely rendered stupid. My opinion of TFA is that it was already largely an insipid retread, but now it’s an insipid retread that is mostly rejected by its sequel for being an insipid retread, even while that same sequel takes the uninspired idea of redoing “desperate rebels against an evil galactic empire” and runs with it all the way. Zoran fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Dec 24, 2017 |
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Dec 24, 2017 17:07
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Zoran posted:In the sense that they no longer matter, yes, but TFA really is worse in light of this movie because the performances and all the obvious foreshadowing are largely rendered stupid. get this: it was already stupid
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Dec 24, 2017 17:10
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Brother Entropy posted:get this: it was already stupid get this: it wasn't OOOOH poo poo - SEE WHAT I JUST DID THERE? FLIPPED IT. FLIPPED IT ON YA. ...that's the amount of effort required to rebuttal your dumb post.
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Dec 24, 2017 17:12
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Reposting what I said in the other thread: I’m floored by the number of people whose takeaway from this movie is that the evil manbaby idiot is right about everything. I mean, it makes a certain amount of sense that people would accept that message, because it’s the only kind of cogent moral philosophy presented anywhere in the sequel trilogy, but still. Edit: Also, I’ve seen a lot of talk about how this movie takes away the Jedi and Sith duopoly on the Force and ends the focus on individual heroism. It says those things, sometimes, but in fact it does precisely the opposite. What’s the singular moment in this film that’s supposed to inspire the New Rebellion? It’s not the desperate band of everyday people struggling every day together against the rise of fascism, scoring a major victory that makes their cause suddenly look viable. Instead it’s one old superhero doing one incredible act, causing the downtrodden kids across the galaxy to dream of becoming supermen themselves. And the Jedi Master’s legacy is passed to a girl who wasn’t born into power but nonetheless is the one chosen by God. Zoran fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Dec 24, 2017 |
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Dec 24, 2017 17:16
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McCloud posted:
These are all valid questions but you could have asked them before TLJ as well.
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Dec 24, 2017 17:23
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Zoran posted:Reposting what I said in the other thread: Get this: He's totally right *and* incapable of accepting his own beliefs. That's why Luke's last message to him is "Strike me down in anger and I'll always be with you, just like your father.". It's not that Ben's wrong to say that it's important to move on from the past, it's that he himself can't actually do it. Physically killing his father and Snoke and, if only by proxy, Luke doesn't actually get rid of them in his heart. It just solidifies the influence they have over him. It's why he's a giant rage filled case of arrested development. He intuits that he needs to move on, but he lacks the emotional maturity to do it, so the only thing he can think to do is obliterate everything around him.
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Dec 24, 2017 17:24
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Mulva posted:Get this: He's totally right *and* incapable of accepting his own beliefs. That's why Luke's last message to him is "Strike me down in anger and I'll always be with you, just like your father.". It's not that Ben's wrong to say that it's important to move on from the past, it's that he himself can't actually do it. Physically killing his father and Snoke and, if only by proxy, Luke doesn't actually get rid of them in his heart. It just solidifies the influence they have over him. It's why he's a giant rage filled case of arrested development. He intuits that he needs to move on, but he lacks the emotional maturity to do it, so the only thing he can think to do is obliterate everything around him. Yes. His actions and decisions are flawed and wrong and he lacks wisdom and control. Part of the movie deals with that. He can't see beyond himself. You have mature older women who are leaders who understand the bigger picture and are wiser that can deal with the gravity and consequences of their actions or the situation and patience to raise the new. You have Luke who falters but they all forgive each other and try to move on. Poe learns this where at the start his actions lead to lost resources and deaths. Who does it matter to Kylo or Poe or Luke or Rey just who Snoke is? It doesn’t matter so much as he is something that needs to pass. Gatts fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Dec 24, 2017 |
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Dec 24, 2017 17:34
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Mulva posted:Get this: He's totally right *and* incapable of accepting his own beliefs. And yet the rest of the movie doesn’t support this. Leia is the wise old leader figure who encourages everyone to cope with their losses by saying that they can effectively do the whole Rebellion over again, exactly as before. Luke and Yoda have their book-burning scene, but then it’s revealed that in fact Rey has preserved the old teachings, implying that Yoda was just loving with Luke and that Luke was wrong to want to burn down the old ways.
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Dec 24, 2017 17:42
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Zoran posted:And yet the rest of the movie doesn’t support this. Leia is the wise old leader figure who encourages everyone to cope with their losses by saying that they can effectively do the whole Rebellion over again, exactly as before. Luke and Yoda have their book-burning scene, but then it’s revealed that in fact Rey has preserved the old teachings, implying that Yoda was just loving with Luke and that Luke was wrong to want to burn down the old ways. Leia is there to give hope as a leader. Yoda and Luke are meant to teach and let the kids forge their own path. The burning of the tree is symbolic. They need to move on, let it go, Luke needs to let things go, and let Rey and Kylo find their way and make their choices. Rey may have taken the books but what is she going to do with them? I really hope the last one makes its own way and does something different.
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Dec 24, 2017 17:46
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Mr. Flunchy posted:You know The Last Jedi chronologically takes place after the previous films right? Who's to say people won't be using 'The Holdo Manoeuvre' in future? I find it kinda hard to believe that lightspeed suiciding was possible, that no one would have considered it before now. It's not exactly rocket science, you know. Is the only reason no one has done this before simply that no one thought of it? As for your second point, I kind of agree, but this is an exception for me because this trick kinda breaks the internal rules of the setting. Over the 6 or so movies you've had a certain consistent set of "rules" on how space travel functions, that help maintain dramatic tension. It's not very exciting if, say, Han could jump to lightspeed at any point during the chase in ESB or ANH. But in TFA and TNJ they are breaking these rules in favor of lazy storytelling. Why did they bother with the landing crew on Endor if they could just lightspeed a ship right on top of the shield generator and then fling an asteroid at light speed into the death star? It used to be that they couldn't do that, for whatever reason. Now it's because they're too dumb to consider the option. I mean, it's not a huge thing that totally breaks the film, it's just a dumb paradox that should have been avoided, much like Abrams dumb "Just lightspeed past the shield" poo poo in TFA. It's lazy and dumb. At least this time they got a cool scene out of it this time.
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Dec 24, 2017 17:46
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Zoran posted:And yet the rest of the movie doesn’t support this. Leia is the wise old leader figure who encourages everyone to cope with their losses by saying that they can effectively do the whole Rebellion over again, exactly as before. Luke and Yoda have their book-burning scene, but then it’s revealed that in fact Rey has preserved the old teachings, implying that Yoda was just loving with Luke and that Luke was wrong to want to burn down the old ways. I wouldn't say that this means that Luke was wrong per se. It's more that it was important and right for Luke specifically to make a clean break with the Jedi, because that path has nothing more in store for him in particular. Meanwhile the new generation might or might not still find something useful in their teachings.
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Dec 24, 2017 17:50
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You could just assume FTL technology developed a little between the trilogies to make those tactics possible. It's not in the movies or anything but it's entirely plausible.
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Dec 24, 2017 17:50
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Zoran posted:And yet the rest of the movie doesn’t support this. Leia is the wise old leader figure who encourages everyone to cope with their losses by saying that they can effectively do the whole Rebellion over again, exactly as before. It's not exactly as before, and the Rebellion was the least failure part of the equation. The Republic is what failed people, and it explicitly disowned the Rebellion. quote:Luke and Yoda have their book-burning scene, but then it’s revealed that in fact Rey has preserved the old teachings, implying that Yoda was just loving with Luke and that Luke was wrong to want to burn down the old ways. Nah, that last bit is you reading into it. He still burnt the temple, and it still helped Luke let go. She had to learn that lesson in a different way, when Ben gets her to admit her family were nobodies. That's her baggage that was holding her back. Not the Jedi poo poo, which doesn't actually mean anything to her beyond "Be a hero with magic powers", which is what Luke's cut third lesson to her was anyways. You don't need the Jedi to tell you to be a hero with magic powers.
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Dec 24, 2017 17:55
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Perestroika posted:I wouldn't say that this means that Luke was wrong per se. It's more that it was important and right for Luke specifically to make a clean break with the Jedi, because that path has nothing more in store for him in particular. Meanwhile the new generation might or might not still find something useful in their teachings. LUKE: “I will not be the last Jedi.”
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Dec 24, 2017 17:55
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Zoran posted:In the sense that they no longer matter, yes, but TFA really is worse in light of this movie because the performances and all the obvious foreshadowing are largely rendered stupid. It is not stupid for a "mystery" that you were specifically told did not matter in the previous movie to have an answer you don't like. The answer to the "mystery" is well handled and perfectly reasonable.
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Dec 24, 2017 17:56
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McCloud posted:I find it kinda hard to believe that lightspeed suiciding was possible, that no one would have considered it before now. It's not exactly rocket science, you know. Is the only reason no one has done this before simply that no one thought of it? Sir, can you please place your order so I can assist the next customer?
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Dec 24, 2017 17:57
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BardoTheConsumer posted:It is not stupid for a "mystery" that you were specifically told did not matter in the previous movie Was it you who cited Maz's line about this? She immediately contradicts herself in the very next line
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Dec 24, 2017 17:57
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My argument against the kamikaze tactics is that when your fleet it's a tiny fraction of the Empire's, like 100:1, even if you use all your capships to crash into theirs, taking out 10 at a time, your fleet is used up and their numerical advantage is now 90:0. Sure, you could make a campaign to regularly steal ships and suicide them, but that feels more like the terrorism that we're familiar with than the notionally legitimate rebel organization where regular suicide bombings aren't 'noble' enough. As for fighter ships doing it, you could say they don't have enough mass/energy to make it work.
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Dec 24, 2017 17:58
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Zoran posted:Was it you who cited Maz's line about this? She immediately contradicts herself in the very next line Rey's parents are revealed in this film though, if that's what you're talking about. It's an important part of her character moving forward. You must have been in the bathroom during that scene; it's right after Kylo fights the guards with her.
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Dec 24, 2017 18:01
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Tender Bender posted:Sir, can you please place your order so I can assist the next customer? LOL, this is a great comeback and I'd like to use it in the future.
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Dec 24, 2017 18:06
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Tender Bender posted:Sir, can you please place your order so I can assist the next customer? I would like to order a Star Wars movie, and I'd like it well done. Please hold the lazy plot devices and "homages" to previous Star wars movies. Thanks.
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Dec 24, 2017 18:09
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McCloud posted:I would like to order a Star Wars movie, and I'd like it well done. Please hold the lazy plot devices and "homages" to previous Star wars movies. Thanks. .....if you take out the Star Wars movies with lazy plot devices, there are no Star Wars movies.
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Dec 24, 2017 18:11
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Tender Bender posted:These are all valid questions but you could have asked them before TLJ as well. And a variation of this was already used in the old EU, Dark Empire II had the "Galaxy Gun" which shot hyperspace capable bullets that could destroy planets. Which is something Star Wars as gently caress taken out to Star Wars levels, versus the more reasonable application here. One other thing to consider, Holdo's ship was entering hyperspace, not necessarily *in* hyperspace when she crashed into the other ship. i.e. that part of the jump when the stars streak and before the blue wormhole look of actual hyperspace. So you could do that with asteroids, feasibly, but you'd have to get it super close to planet and then engage it. Old legends lore also seemed to say hyperspace objects which intersected with another massive real space object would be destroyed in hyperspace. This was developed based on the comment Han made in A New Hope. The navicomputer calculates jumps and then charts around those objects for safety. The navicomputer can be bypassed at your own risk, which we saw with Han two times in TFA and Cassian in Rogue One. The old EU played around with a lot of the "But if this is possible, why can't we do X too?" Disney is finally putting that stuff into movies too. Early look at Kylo Ren's new look in Episode IX: 
Teek fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Dec 24, 2017 |
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Dec 24, 2017 18:16
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McCloud posted:I find it kinda hard to believe that lightspeed suiciding was possible, that no one would have considered it before now. It's not exactly rocket science, you know. Is the only reason no one has done this before simply that no one thought of it? It took about 50 years of commercial jet travel for someone to work out that they could use box cutters to force the pilots to give up the controls and then crash it into a building. So yeah, the only reason no-one has done this before might be simply that either no-one thought of it, or they didn't think it would work.
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Dec 24, 2017 18:20
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Teek posted:Old legends lore also seemed to say hyperspace objects which intersected with another massive real space object would be destroyed in hyperspace. This was developed based on the comment Han made in A New Hope. The navicomputer calculates jumps and then charts around those objects for safety. The navicomputer can be bypassed at your own risk, which we saw with Han two times in TFA and Cassian in Rogue One. The old EU played around with a lot of the "But if this is possible, why can't we do X too?" Disney is finally putting that stuff into movies too. I remember Legends EU had interdictor ships (and the mass shadow generator from KOTOR 2) which I think worked on the principle that you can generate a field that simulates a planetary body and it will automatically pull a ship travelling at lightspeed out of hyperspace by force of gravity or something like that. I don't think anything like that's ever been in any movies, though. I don't know. I have a hard enough time with real science to try and work out fake movie science.
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Dec 24, 2017 18:27
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Mr. Flunchy posted:It took about 50 years of commercial jet travel for someone to work out that they could use box cutters to force the pilots to give up the controls and then crash it into a building. So yeah, the only reason no-one has done this before might be simply that either no-one thought of it, or they didn't think it would work. This was something actually being explored by George Lucas in Clone Wars (and his spec live action series) and carried on by Disney. Saw Gerrera's Partisans are the more militant side of the Rebellion and do bombings and attacks like this, much to the distaste and horror of the Rebellion leadership. So hijacking a cruiser and crashing it somewhere would be in their wheelhouse. In regards to Interdictors, they've been canonized in the Rebels tv series. They act in the same way they did in Legends, create massive gravity wells which cause hyperdrives to revert to real space and/or prevent jumps to hyperspace. Teek fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Dec 24, 2017 |
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Dec 24, 2017 18:30
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The reason they never did lightspeed ramming Suicide runs is because George Lucas never thought about doing it.
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Dec 24, 2017 18:31
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disney promoting jihadism to are youth #smh
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Dec 24, 2017 18:35
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Wheat Loaf posted:I remember Legends EU had interdictor ships (and the mass shadow generator from KOTOR 2) which I think worked on the principle that you can generate a field that simulates a planetary body and it will automatically pull a ship travelling at lightspeed out of hyperspace by force of gravity or something like that. I don't think anything like that's ever been in any movies, though. I don't know. I have a hard enough time with real science to try and work out fake movie science. The EU never really pins down how hyperspace works but iirc the movies always refer to it as just "lightspeed" which implies the ship is moving through realspace.
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Dec 24, 2017 18:47
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Tender Bender posted:Rey's parents are revealed in this film though, if that's what you're talking about. It's an important part of her character moving forward. You must have been in the bathroom during that scene; it's right after Kylo fights the guards with her. You believed Kylo about that? It's the equivalent of saying you hosed someones mom.
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Dec 24, 2017 18:52
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BardoTheConsumer posted:The EU never really pins down how hyperspace works but iirc the movies always refer to it as just "lightspeed" which implies the ship is moving through realspace. I'm sure they must mention hyperspace in ANH or ESB. I can't remember off the top of my head, though.
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Dec 24, 2017 18:53
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Vintersorg posted:You believed Kylo about that? Well JJ is the least subtle person alive and when he read this script he thought it was really cool, so even if it wasn't true before this movie it is now.....unless someone can distract JJ with a shiny object and another idea before they finish writing 9.
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Dec 24, 2017 18:54
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Vintersorg posted:You believed Kylo about that? It fits with what was said in TFA. “Whoever you are waiting for on Jakku, they are never coming back” “The longing you’re looking for is not behind you but in front of you.” Her parents were only important to her, not us, the audience.
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Dec 24, 2017 18:56
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Vintersorg posted:You believed Kylo about that? I'd imagine Abrams or other people without guts or vision to gently caress it up and say "lol Kylo lied, Rey is actually ultra important child of Ben Kenobi." and ruin everything in the next movie. It was a good genuine connection between the two and what they did out of it. For a moment I did think they were going to be like Bro and Sis and burn down the old and build a new society out of things. But oh well.
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Dec 24, 2017 18:57
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Vintersorg posted:You believed Kylo about that? "You believed Vader about that? It's the equivalent of saying you hosed someones mom." I did, yeah, but of course if a future movie reveals her parents are Luke and Sheev it still doesn't "delete" that mystery.
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Dec 24, 2017 19:00
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I don't want her connected to some famous name in the galaxy by the way. But when Kylo said that I was https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1uTsqJVAeo And yeah, I am disappointed they wasted Kylo there and just made him be a bad person again. It would have been an amazing twist to have them team up (and not kill their friends). Tender Bender posted:"You believed Vader about that? Context my friend, context. Kylo was just being an rear end in a top hat and mouthing her off, "YOUR PARENTS ARE GARBAGE!!!" Vader didn't come across as trying to sully Luke. Nor did that scene with the gravitas present it as being a lie (even though i've read people guessed it may have been a lie).
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Dec 24, 2017 19:00
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How much truth is there likely to be to the story that Johnson asked Abrams who he thought Rey's parents should be or who he thought Snoke was and where he came from, and Abrams's answer was that he hadn't put a great deal of thought into it and didn't really have a settled idea, because he didn't think he'd be coming back and thought it would be an interesting jumping-off point for whoever followed him? I assume he must have had some thoughts. It seems a bit fanciful to me.
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Dec 24, 2017 19:02
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