|
Chomskyan posted:premise that holding prisoners with no charge was immoral He said Gitmo should closed but when did he say there would never be any POWs?
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 01:44
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 20:36 |
|
|
A random six year old was killed in Texas by police. Merry Christmas! http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/six-year-old-shot-dead-accident-texas-kameron-prescott-a8127551.html
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 02:20
|
|
|
We will find out if Obama's faith in the public and our system is truly misplaced soon enough. We will either make the nessisary changes, all leftward, or not. It's only possible right now. If those of you that see the nessesity of it, opt out of participation it won't happen. It's going to disappoint you, even if you do participate. But to put an ideal above what is and what is possible, will end up dissapointing you even more. Three years. One more year of harm, two years of stagnation, then possibilty. One could spend the time circle jerking about purity. One could spend the time not mattering. But if one knows what is needed and how long one has. .. it's damnable cowardice to not be right now. Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Dec 25, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 02:25
|
|
|
yronic heroism posted:He said Gitmo should closed but when did he say there would never be any POWs? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8USRg3h4AdE Here you go. Criticizing the suspension of habeus corpus
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 03:01
|
|
|
Stereotype posted:A random six year old was killed in Texas by police. Merry Christmas! i mean what were they supposed to do not open fire on a car thief in a crowded trailer park
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 03:10
|
|
|
Ytlaya posted:Honestly, I agree about it being related to Obama's general feeling that you could rely on "smart/skilled" people (which generally happens to be defined as people with industry experience). I disagree with an interpretation that Obama was corrupt in the sense of actively trying to enrich (for example) the financial industry with an understanding that it wasn't good for the country. That being said, I think that sort of "having faith in other industry 'experts'" perspective is its own sort of corruption and probably describes most corruption on the Democratic side of the spectrum. I think the answer, in all honesty, was a pretty typical Democratic politician that didn't "ask too many questions" and generally went with the flow except for a couple instances (Iran, Cuba). In all honesty, he probably thought he was doing the right thing, and certainly, his advisers probably agreed with him. I think the Obama administration's failures were less than really about Obama but a particular political culture in DC. The big difference was probably he was naturally a little more of dove than other Democrats (but obviously not a dove to his core). quote:(It seems a little weird IMO to combine both foreign policy and domestic economic/social policy under the header of "leftism." Like, both those things are important, but I don't think they're strictly related; someone could have ideology intended to create an equitable society while also being a hawk with terrible ideas about interventionism being helpful. Then again, I do think it makes sense to include social issues under "leftism", since they're just another type of inequality to address. I guess maybe you could draw a similar parallel to foreign policy?) Granted, it does get a bit nuts if you are using left-wing social and economic policy (like LBJ) at home and napalming villages abroad. There is a sincerity gap there. Also, war costs money and it is hard to have a domestic economic change with a bloated military budget.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 03:17
|
|
|
Of course domestic and foreign policy are related. The problem isn't just war, but war (or coups) in favor of capital. The exact same impulses that led to wall Street being off the hook domestically led to the pressure to get rid of a vaguely left wing politician in Honduras or blocking the minimum wage increase in Haiti.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 03:40
|
|
|
Ytlaya posted:Honestly, I agree about it being related to Obama's general feeling that you could rely on "smart/skilled" people (which generally happens to be defined as people with industry experience). There are plenty of people with 20 years experience that can't hold a candle to people with 2 years experience - being extremely smart and motivated can in fact make up for decades of experience, at least in many ways. That's not to say that experience doesn't matter, but innate talent and drive comparatively matter so much more for in-demand tech companies.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 04:04
|
|
|
No one with two years experience in tech is anything but poo poo. Most two year experience folk that are good have been working for a decade, they have just been doing it for free. And even then they are usually woefully ignorant about important poo poo. Luckily thats good enough since their job is mostly solving simple problems with plenty of time to do so and low consequences for failure. Also that bar is still too high for a great many tech hopefils to clear lmao. For the hard problems in tech more experience than that tis absolutely required because you need not just your three to four years of foundational knowledge but also three to four years of specialized knowledge and skillls that arent easy to come by And we are talking about politcal management, a field far more complex, with far more domain knowledge requirements, with far higher consequences for failure. Of course its also got such poo poo people in it that even the poo poo rises to the top so lol at experience mattering most of the time.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 04:13
|
|
|
Stereotype posted:A random six year old was killed in Texas by police. Merry Christmas! This kind of thing would literally bring down a government in another nation.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 04:28
|
|
|
Ytlaya posted:Honestly, I agree about it being related to Obama's general feeling that you could rely on "smart/skilled" people (which generally happens to be defined as people with industry experience). I disagree with an interpretation that Obama was corrupt in the sense of actively trying to enrich (for example) the financial industry with an understanding that it wasn't good for the country. That being said, I think that sort of "having faith in other industry 'experts'" perspective is its own sort of corruption and probably describes most corruption on the Democratic side of the spectrum. Obama actively worked to enrich the financial industry, because it probably would have collapsed if he didn't, and he believed that the financial industry both had a right to exist and was overall necessary to American life. Just like he actively worked to enrich the health insurance industry, because he believed that a private market-based insurance industry was good for Americans and shouldn't be pressured unnecessarily by government fiat. With Obama, it wasn't really about corruption - he genuinely believed in capitalism, and thus believed that government's role was to protect and enrich private industry while at the same time pressuring it to limit its abuses. Just like the forty-three presidents before him. The same goes for his foreign policy. His rhetoric and specific strategies were different from Bush's, but he did little to reshape the overall US foreign policy orthodoxy that bombing poor countries for no particular reason and funding random rebels all over unstable areas are both cool and good. I don't understand why people are so desperate to convince themselves that poor helpless innocent Obama was just being deceived and misled by all those evil advisers that he personally handpicked and also could have fired at any time.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 06:11
|
|
|
Shimrra Jamaane posted:This kind of thing would literally bring down a government in another nation. Yeah except in America the police are just doing their jobs and also a Patriotic Noble Service for the nation and any negative consequence of their actions is just a normal risk of their procedures and thus neither preventable nor worthy of discipline and if your child is murdered by them then you should just be happy that we live in a nation where property theft requires unaccountable deadly force. Merry Christmas!!!
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 06:18
|
|
|
Shimrra Jamaane posted:This kind of thing would literally bring down a government in another nation. Also when everyone found out the police had been abetting child rape for 30 years and it caused the Third English Civil War.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 07:28
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:With Obama, it wasn't really about corruption - he genuinely believed in capitalism, and thus believed that government's role was to protect and enrich private industry while at the same time pressuring it to limit its abuses. Just like the forty-three presidents before him.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 16:28
|
|
|
That doesn't make any sense. Corrupt isn't just a synonym for bad, it means something specific.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 16:36
|
|
|
The Kingfish posted:That doesn't make any sense. Corrupt isn't just a synonym for bad, it means something specific. I am genuinely interested in what you define as corrupt. Unsurprisingly it is actually a word with a great many wildly different and equally valid definitions The basic definition though is unethical behavour by a person in a position of power so it actually is pretty close to a synonym of morally bad. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Dec 25, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 17:09
|
|
|
Corruption as defined by MW: dishonest or fraudulent conduct by those in power, typically involving bribery. "the journalist who wants to expose corruption in high places"
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 17:13
|
|
|
GlyphGryph posted:I am genuinely interested in what you define as corrupt. Unsurprisingly it is actually a word with a great many wildly different and equally valid definitions Pretty much any ethical or moral calculus would include an element of intent, so a capitalist who sincerely believed that a capitalist system could be regulated for the general good would not necessarily be corrupt.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 17:18
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:Pretty much any ethical or moral calculus would include an element of intent, so a capitalist who sincerely believed that a capitalist system could be regulated for the general good would not necessarily be corrupt. edit: Because I'm willing to say that capitalists and white supremacists are basically the same sort of bad. If that bad isn't "corruption" then fine, but it seems to fit to me. twodot fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Dec 25, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 17:38
|
|
|
No. Words have meaning, expand your loving lexicon. White supremacists in charge who alter, skirt, or flaunt the established rules unfairly to favor their interests over others would be corrupt.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 17:39
|
|
|
E^^^ What he said. GlyphGryph posted:I am genuinely interested in what you define as corrupt. Unsurprisingly it is actually a word with a great many wildly different and equally valid definitions
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 17:43
|
|
|
Dead Reckoning posted:E^^^ What he said.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 17:46
|
|
|
Boon posted:No. Words have meaning, expand your loving lexicon. Likewise, a leftist government with a strong anti-racist agenda would be corrupt if its members were susceptible to bribery. E: ^that's not what "quid pro quo" means. The Kingfish fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Dec 25, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 17:47
|
|
|
twodot posted:Yes, any rich person that materially supports capitalism is both engaging in an immoral behavior (theft of value from laborers) and is engaging in a quid-pro-quo for personal benefit (accumulation of capital). Perhaps a poor person can support capitalism in a non-corrupt fashion, but we were talking about Obama.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 17:56
|
|
|
The Kingfish posted:Likewise, a leftist government with a strong anti-racist agenda would be corrupt if its members were susceptible to bribery. edit: Dead Reckoning posted:"Capitalism" as an idea isn't personally giving a consideration to Barack Obama for believing in it. twodot fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Dec 25, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 17:57
|
|
|
"Senator, do you support eating the rich, guillotining our rulers, and killing our parents?" "No." "Corruption! You perpetuate the status quo out of a desire to personally maintain your privilege of remaining un-eaten and un-guillotined! The only non-corrupt course available to you is to pledge your fealty to the DSA now!" If you remove the element of quid-pro-quo, you're left splitting hairs about the definition of "advantage." If the Idaho potato farmers elect a potato farmer to Congress so that he will act in the interests of his fellow potato farmers, that's democracy, not corruption. If Congressman Potato places the interests of potato farmers above the welfare of the country to an unreasonable degree, that's bad, but not corruption. If Congressman Potato votes for a specific bill because his friends back home have promised to pay him above market prices for his potatoes, that's corruption. Same if Congressman Potato votes for a bill that enriches him personally to a far greater degree than other potato farmers.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 18:16
|
|
|
You can tell we're at a midpoint between elections
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 18:21
|
|
|
Is a boiled, bone-in rib a sandwich?
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 18:21
|
|
|
twodot posted:Bribery is one form of corruption. Supporting and entrenching a form of society systemically structured to advantage you, your family, and your friends at the expense of others is another. The fact that rich people have organized into a cohesive class that doesn't require explicit promises between individuals doesn't change the fact that supporting the capitalist class is an action that grants access to wealth and power. Getting paid is not inherently corrupt. You are stretching the definition of a word as far as possible instead of finding a more appropriate word for what you are describing. This is what idiots do. Don't be an idiot.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 18:22
|
|
|
Potato Salad posted:You can tell we're at a midpoint between elections There's actual poo poo happening in the world of US Politics but since re litigating the primaries is verboten, the new tactic is re litigating the Obama presidency because there's nothing more Internet leftist than Monday morning quarterbacking.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 18:25
|
|
|
Fluffdaddy posted:There's actual poo poo happening in the world of US Politics but since re litigating the primaries is verboten, the new tactic is re litigating the Obama presidency because there's nothing more Internet leftist than Monday morning quarterbacking. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 18:27
|
|
|
as far as occupiers of the imperial blood throne go Obama was pretty good but the throne still needs to be smashed
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 18:30
|
|
|
They've got to masterbate hard enough to keep the centrists out.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 18:43
|
|
|
It's not the same kind of corruption as in the saying about "power corrupting", is it? Because I always thought that was a stupid quote. More sensible was "Power doesn't corrupt. It reveals.". Speak and act one way while campaigning and act according to your true belief in capitalism while in power.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 18:44
|
|
|
Belief in a system and acting within that system is not corruption. It can be naive, stupid or even harmful but it is not corruption. Use your words.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 18:48
|
|
|
BrandorKP posted:They've got to masterbate hard enough to keep the centrists out. I got a doxy for Christmas and plan to outdo the JO Bro lefties in short order
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 18:49
|
|
|
Rockopolis posted:It's not the same kind of corruption as in the saying about "power corrupting", is it? Because I always thought that was a stupid quote. Fluffdaddy posted:You are stretching the definition of a word as far as possible instead of finding a more appropriate word for what you are describing. This is what idiots do. Don't be an idiot.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 18:51
|
|
|
Dead Reckoning posted:Nah, it's more "People generally agree that corruption is bad, so if I redefine behavior I don't like as corruption, I can completely short cut having to argue about anything on its merits and just bludgeon people with that word, insisting that anyone who disagrees with me is enabling corruption!" This is a pretty popular tactic of the right wing in this country too. Hmm.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 18:54
|
|
|
It is the ultimate expression of privilege to think that the way the US treats non citizens is some minor detail, because you can only do that if you know that you are not the one getting deported, you are not the one getting gang raped by Honduran security forces, you are not the one being sold into slavery in Libya, you are not the one getting starved to death in Yemen, it's not your kid getting droned in Afghanistan... Stuff that plenty of people have been pointing out for years
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 18:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 20:36 |
|
|
Fluffdaddy posted:Belief in a system and acting within that system is not corruption. It can be naive, stupid or even harmful but it is not corruption. Use your words. I don't know, allowing and expanding the systematic exploitation of the people you were elected to represent, in exchange for later monetary compensation, definitely seems to qualify. ie. Ajit Pai neglecting his responsibilities in exchange for $$$ later. Would Obama be receiving tens of millions of dollars now, if he had held Wall Street accountable?
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2017 18:57
|
|
