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I don't think I've ever used control undead in Tomb. I got use out of it in the early and midgame but lategame any undead I would want to control would just resist it repeatedly. Easier to just kill everything instead.
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Dec 24, 2017 23:04
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| # ? May 15, 2024 16:16 |
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Finally finished the survey compilation and analysis. I am glad Google Forms exists, because otherwise this would have been even more of a pain in the rear end: Survey Results: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Rwo9hdgEL3SPr1zC9cJH9KxhPpNCxTKkTVAG-njr7I8/edit?usp=drivesdk Survey Data (names and comments purged to avoid any name and blame): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hBhd6CLgu5pNpbN91r11rb3njQTEafvDICR_WGA7r7c/edit?usp=drivesdk Please feel free to tell me off if you feel I'm interpreting anything wrong, as well as start discussion. I'll get to posting the relevant comments on the wiki tonight or tomorrow morning, as well as draft up the 1.0 design doc to start working on stuff.
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Dec 24, 2017 23:21
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here's my reasoning behind removing vaults rune lock: it doesn't have a purpose to exist and removing it opens up possibilities for both challenge games and sick early silver rune ninjas. thank you for your time.
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Dec 24, 2017 23:28
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I think your interpretation of the data seems right but I wanna discuss some of the things mentioned; -Rods: why do we need these now? The main advantage rods had over wands was infinite charges, but they were clunky to swap too and actually use in combat. I feel with wand stacking their existence is not needed since you can carry around a large amount of wands which are much easier to use in combat. The infinite charge aspect is nice but if Pakellas is being put back in the game you can follow them for your artificer needs. I don't really feel like rods add anything other than bloat to Crawl in light of the wand reform and existence of Pak. If people think otherwise I'd like to hear why. -Hellcrawl permabuffs: I'm a bit confused by this since I have no idea how permabuffs actually work in Hellcrawl. Would like to see this explained since its hard to have an opinion on this when I don't understand. Also its unclear what spells fall into this category (for example, something like death channel). -Entropy Weavers: These guys are enormous rear end in a top hat and an incredible pain to deal with. As a monster I think they are really poorly designed; they are faster than the player, have smite targeted corrosion, and deal substantial damage in melee due to that corrosion. They also spawn in an area where your movement is often impeded and blocking LOS is not always possible. Also they can spawn in Lair if the game particularly hates you. Removing sInv would let you burn a consumable to properly deal with them/not get destroyed due to bad RNG, so I'm all for it.
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Dec 24, 2017 23:35
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Internet Kraken posted:-Entropy Weavers: These guys are enormous rear end in a top hat and an incredible pain to deal with. As a monster I think they are really poorly designed; they are faster than the player, have smite targeted corrosion, and deal substantial damage in melee due to that corrosion. They also spawn in an area where your movement is often impeded and blocking LOS is not always possible. Also they can spawn in Lair if the game particularly hates you. Removing sInv would let you burn a consumable to properly deal with them/not get destroyed due to bad RNG, so I'm all for it.
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Dec 24, 2017 23:38
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My one comment was "I voted to restore pizza and purple chunks and to remove food; make of this what you will" Feel free to name and blame
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Dec 24, 2017 23:41
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PMush Perfect posted:Can we also do something about Caustic Shrikes? Even at yellow, they're capable of completely obliterating certain builds with no recourse. It comes down to pure RNG on if you can kill it before it -16s you and chases you up the stairs. Maybe slow it down a bit?
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Dec 24, 2017 23:42
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PMush Perfect posted:Can we also do something about Caustic Shrikes? Even at yellow, they're capable of completely obliterating certain builds with no recourse. It comes down to pure RNG on if you can kill it before it -16s you and chases you up the stairs. Maybe slow it down a bit? Apparently you can chug cancellation to remove corrosion now so that's a way to deal with them stacking up huge amounts on you. They show up late enough that you should have some potions to burn unlike entropy weavers which can spawn in loving LAIR SERIOUSLY WHAT THE HELL  But I do think they have no business being a pack creature with how powerful they are.
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Dec 24, 2017 23:44
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Internet Kraken posted:Apparently you can chug cancellation to remove corrosion now so that's a way to deal with them stacking up huge amounts on you.
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Dec 24, 2017 23:50
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Floodkiller is a hero who accurately interperted my comments of 'add loving everything except item destruction, and don't remove food/tomb'.
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Dec 25, 2017 00:11
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Hey speaking of potions of cancellation, instead of re-adding restore abilities I'd like it more if the two potions were combined into one and made more common. Restore abilities was honestly pretty boring but cancellation is very cool, except it's so rare that you can't afford to use it for minor things. Slapping them together gives you restores effect without adding more junk to the inventory and making cancellation more common means it's not exclusively saved for dealing with lethal debuffs like hell petrify/mark/etc or contam.
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Dec 25, 2017 00:32
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Mostly predictable, and it looks like with the older changes, ppl are less angry about them. Nobody cares about the poor MDs, everyone prefers melee transmuters over evaporate, and nobody but me likes item destruct. And some random crap about entropy's weaver sInv being the straw that broke the camel's back, which amuses me. Edit: Yea, nobody remembers the old backgrounds like Reaver/Stalker so few can comment, not to mention a lot of their spellsets are now obsolete. What exactly was the miscast 'rework', I don't remember much discussion of it on this thread? Serephina fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Dec 25, 2017 |
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Dec 25, 2017 02:44
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Serephina posted:Nobody cares about the poor MDs, everyone prefers melee transmuters over evaporate,  It's ok. I guess it's a fight I wasn't destined to win.
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Dec 25, 2017 02:48
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Reavers were an attempt to have a hybrid start combining Conjurations and melee. This was pre-Battlesphere and there wasn't much synergy with either side. Stalkers were split venom mage/enchanter and short blades. They completed the triumvirate of Assassin and Enchanter as shadowy backstabbers.
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Dec 25, 2017 02:58
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Evaporate was great and I don't know why so many of you voted no.
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Dec 25, 2017 03:03
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it was loving fiddly as hell and didn't warrant all those lovely junk potions existing just to enable it
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Dec 25, 2017 03:09
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evaporate is good, mountain dwarves are essential
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Dec 25, 2017 03:12
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A lot of the yes should be pretty easy to reimplement, at least.
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Dec 25, 2017 03:14
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stalkers also spent some time as a stabby transmutations class honestly i have no idea how an octopode special mechanic for helmets would work, i just meant the hat slot when i brought it up
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Dec 25, 2017 03:23
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mountain dwarves thoughts: as they were, they don't really have anything special for themselves. what would be an interesting quirk for a modern mountain dwarves re-implementation? e: also did crusader just become skald? what would crusader even be these days
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Dec 25, 2017 03:24
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My first thought is high HP, armor, shields, and dodging, but low offensive apts. Make them tanks.
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Dec 25, 2017 03:25
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cheetah7071 posted:My first thought is high HP, armor, shields, and dodging, but low offensive apts. Make them tanks.
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Dec 25, 2017 03:28
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halflings have pretty decent defensive aptitudes but low health. i thought they had worse weapon aptitudes but they're actually kind of okay at anything that isn't staves or punching they also have innate rmut, which is kind of a defensive aptitude right
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Dec 25, 2017 03:35
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comedy option: remove gargoyle flight, rename them mountain dwarves
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Dec 25, 2017 03:37
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I'm not sure I've ever played a halfling
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Dec 25, 2017 03:38
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Tollymain posted:comedy option: remove gargoyle flight, rename them mountain dwarves
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Dec 25, 2017 03:47
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Rods were awkward poo poo garbage and work way better as wands, plus felids can use them as wands. Why would you want to bring them back?
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Dec 25, 2017 03:50
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I'm at home for Christmas, but I want to make a statement I want to substantiate when I get home and can make an effort part: Features should not be voted on explicitly. The great majority of the community has no idea how to craft a cohesive experience. Polls like the one flood made are really useful for getting an idea of what the community values, but should not serve as an explicit guideline. A direction, goals and values should be discussed as a community, but individual features should be chosen by a, or a group of system designers.
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Dec 25, 2017 03:55
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Canine Blues Arooo posted:I'm at home for Christmas, but I want to make a statement I want to substantiate when I get home and can make an effort part: Edit: Obvious obligatory nomination for Floodkiller as Project Coordinator.
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Dec 25, 2017 04:06
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Canine Blues Arooo posted:I'm at home for Christmas, but I want to make a statement I want to substantiate when I get home and can make an effort part: I agree with this but Gooncrawl is supposed to bring back the stuff people enjoyed about the game, for good or bad, so I wouldn't fault Floodkiller for bringing back a feature just because it had a lot of votes. I also wouldn't fault him for excluding something people voted for if he explained his thoughts behind it and opened discussion on the forum about it, which is basically what we are doing now.
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Dec 25, 2017 04:51
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If gooncrawl is just going to be the casual revival or reworking of some old features, and not touch on going further to build a goon-aesthetic driven fork, then I think we're fine as we are. If we're going to be trying to make a fork more similar to hellcrawl, then I think we eventually need to either leave major design decisions up to Floodkiller or find a way to choose some other representatives to curate design choices. A major part of that decision is going to come down to how much effort Floodkiller intends to put into the fork and whether other people are going to work on coding stuff. I think the careful curation of content is a core strength of Crawl and I don't think gooncrawl, if it develops into a major fork, should abandon that. But, I think Crawl's curation is too conservative and too undemocratic. I think we should be aware of that, and make sure we choose a method of ensuring that content is well chosen and designed while also making sure that the people who do it are in touch with what the thread wants and willing to put popular opinion over their own design sense when appropriate. Either way, I think discussing this too much at this point is premature. Let's wait until we see how gooncrawl starts to develop before we make sweeping judgements on what it's supposed to be.
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Dec 25, 2017 05:18
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It's ok if I want something and other people in the community want something else, and they win and I lose. It's when the devs don't listen at all that bugs me. I'll be excited to see how the fork goes. My C++ is not great but maybe i can help too.
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Dec 25, 2017 05:34
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first time reading this thread or following the game in years but i say this - i saw all this coming when they got rid of hammers. what a drat shame
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Dec 25, 2017 05:35
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Canine Blues Arooo posted:I'm at home for Christmas, but I want to make a statement I want to substantiate when I get home and can make an effort part: PMush Perfect posted:This is a good point. Design by committee has some serious pitfalls. With reversions, at least, what people want is a pretty simple decision, but when it comes to additions and changes, we may have to, essentially, elect a team whose judgment we trust. I haven't got the time right now to respond to all the feedback, but I will respond to these: Part of why I wanted to start a Gooncrawl fork was explicitly to create a "design by committee" branch, seeing as the most common complaint provided by the thread has been the feeling that their input is ignored in favor of following good design. I felt it would be good to pull away from the constant negativity cycle by giving everyone an equal voice in developing something (even if they end up outnumbered in the end, see item destruction), as well as give myself more practice with C++. Sure, it might turn into a poorly mismanaged mess when it reaches the point where nobody can agree on anything, but that's half the fun! I'm not terribly interested in crafting a cohesive experience myself, because I feel that's what DCSS already does. In fact, electing me to be the sole designer would be a terrible thing. My ideal Crawl is likely very close to DCSS or Hellcrawl minus a couple sacred cows like Malmutate and a few unfinished designs/reworks still lying about. Most of what the thread majority voted for is stuff I don't care about or feel the opposite. There's a good reason I've been very explicit in separating myself from the design voting/process (aside from Malmutate), as I don't think my vision actually lines up with the thread. If the thread wants to elect their own design team or some other curation method further down the line (at least wait for v1.0 to come out) for managing proposals and designs, I'm all for it as long as (the majority of) everyone wants to do it. I just want to code it and watch whether the train ends up in the station ahead of schedule or in a 50 traincar pileup.
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Dec 25, 2017 05:44
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Internet Kraken posted:-Hellcrawl permabuffs: I'm a bit confused by this since I have no idea how permabuffs actually work in Hellcrawl. Would like to see this explained since its hard to have an opinion on this when I don't understand. Also its unclear what spells fall into this category (for example, something like death channel). They work like classic "sustain" spells in other RPGs. You cast the spell, then keeping the buff active reduces your max mp until you cancel the buff. The amount of mp reserved is, at minimum, the spell level, but it increases dynamically with spell failure chance, so all your buffs fall off if you put on plate armor and push their failure chance too high. It applies to a large number of spells, not just charms. Yes, death channel falls into the category, as does animate dead, in fact. It's good because it makes charms very powerful again and it removes the tedium of recasting buffs. It's bad because it removes all tactical decisions from using buffs in combat. I also dislike it because it makes charms much more just buffs for melee characters rather than flexible tools for everyone. For example, I have a DEIE in hellcrawl now that is pretty much just a straight melee character with a few tricks because between haste (now level 9), invisibility, ozo's armor, excruciating wounds and regeneration, he only has a little MP to cast other spells. If I could find spectral weapon, song of slaying and darkness, I would use those too. That just makes my character a differently flavored melee build, which is pretty boring. I support permabuffs, but I think they should only apply to a few spells or categories of spells. They should absolutely apply to transmutation forms. They should probably apply to spells like regeneration, since we won't want to remove them but are really tricky to redesign (I thought about how to rewrite regeneration for hours and wrote some notes that I could post, but I'm not very satisfied with any of my ideas). But spells like song of slaying and spectral weapon shouldn't become permabuffs, and the total number of simultaneously applicable permabuffs needs to be kept small. A more interesting direction would be shorter term, more powerful, more dynamic buffs. This ties buffs into the MP system more carefully as well, but not to the point of having them mostly exclude other types of magic. It also means buff-focused melee characters have a more involved play style than heavy melee. However, a light to medium armor character who just wants a few perma-buffs and to fight like other melee characters can still have that play style.
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Dec 25, 2017 05:51
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An active, necromancy-themed regeneration could be like the old version of Powered By Death where corpses in your vicinity rapidly rot to give you health while they last and you remain near them. It could also be fused into Vampiric Draining, where VD puts a DoT on an enemy and you regain health for each tick.
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Dec 25, 2017 05:53
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I started to go through the comments on the survey this morning, but I got bored and wanted to start coding instead. So, here's my Gooncrawl v1.0 design doc based on the survey results: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Sj8Y9qL8MRBtQhirnl3oQ4tH1-JU2Ir410jH2BedcH8/edit?usp=drivesdk I'm going to get everything on the first page in before I call a release. For the second page, I'm looking at: -Recharging just gives charges at the same tiers it did before, who cares about wand caps -Just scarves for felids (scarves are fashionable, but cloaks look heavy) -Put boulder beetles and sheep exactly where they used to be to make it easy. -Looking at giving boulder beetles poison resistance/immunity so they aren't a complete joke anymore (just mostly a joke). Let me know if any of that sounds awful, and I'll reconsider. Some stuff on the last page can probably make it in before v1.0 after I look into it (hammers, Hell effect rework) while others either need more work or more design to fix conflicts with current Crawl. They might be held off for the next version, as I would really prefer to get a stable base first over making sure everything approved gets in immediately.
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Dec 25, 2017 16:28
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We want boulder beetles to be a legitimate potentially run ending threat. Think you could buff them more?
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Dec 25, 2017 16:52
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add a boulder beetle unique that shoots out orbs of destruction in multiple directions like high power orb cards do whenever it collides with something realtalk that all sounds fine.
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Dec 25, 2017 18:32
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| # ? May 15, 2024 16:16 |
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I'm going to have to fork gooncrawl immediately if playable bolder beetles don't end up on that list 
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Dec 25, 2017 18:38
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