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Lurdiak posted:I think Pence would be an improvement on Trump because he doesn't have nearly the cult of personality that Trump does and that would greatly affect his room to maneuver as he tries to rip out all our spines and suck the marrow out of them. I disagree. They've already proven that as long as they have any sort of majority, they don't give a fraction of a gently caress about what the peasants think. With Trump, he at least provides enough tweets and sound bites admitting that they're out to screw everyone that even the most fence sittingest fence sitters can feel compelled to raise an objection about it and maybe even do something about it at the voting booth. With Pence putting that friendly face of civility on it, they can go right back to saying "Oh, he's so civil and well spoken, surely the Democrats can compromise just this once." I would bet good money that if Pence ever does get to sit in the big boy chair while Republicans control the House and Senate, there will be a loving assembly line of "written at the last second with literally zero involvement from Democrats" bills getting passed.
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Dec 27, 2017 13:39
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the_steve posted:I would bet good money that if Pence ever does get to sit in the big boy chair while Republicans control the House and Senate, there will be a loving assembly line of "written at the last second with literally zero involvement from Democrats" bills getting passed. Oh, yeah. Heritage Foundation, especially. Dominionists have spent a lot of time and money trying to seat themselves in power to make America a 'Christian Nation', so you can rest assured as soon as they have a pen at the table that isn't distracted by Twitter that they will use it.
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Dec 27, 2017 13:57
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What? I am so confused. Is he saying flying to Thailand causes global warming? But if you want snow why would you go to Thailand? Or is it a matter of, if there's no snow we might as well go to Thailand? And finally: "why it isn't snow" I can see a way in which this works, but this comic hasn't earned that path. Golbez fucked around with this message at 14:03 on Dec 27, 2017 |
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Dec 27, 2017 14:00
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Lurdiak posted:I think Pence would be an improvement on Trump because he doesn't have nearly the cult of personality that Trump does and that would greatly affect his room to maneuver as he tries to rip out all our spines and suck the marrow out of them. That's as may be but that paedophile in Alabama still got himself quite the following by virtue of being ARE PARTY so I don't think it's worth banking on
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Dec 27, 2017 14:02
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Re: Pence>Trump Pence at least seems like a normal, even "presidential" politician which (while his ideas are admittedly just as evil and probably worse than Trump's since he has an ideology) makes us not look like quite the complete nutbar dangerous laughingstock to the rest of the world. It might be too late for this to matter, though, since we did elect Trump. Pence would almost certainly pass more insidiously destructive legislation than Trump, again in part because he actually has an ideology but also because congress would be out of the spotlight while everyone endlessly debates the impeachment/removal/death and they can scoot through all manner of heinous garbage in the meantime and even if questioned get all faux-righteous about it being too soon for partisanship. Here's the kicker to me: I honestly do not believe that Pence would accidentally start WWIII and I honestly cannot say the same for Trump. So, for Pence, higher throughput of awful regressive bills but no increased threat of nuclear annihilation above baseline. With Trump, less guaranteed domestic bad stuff but a non-zero chance of the very worst things happening. I have to say this worries me just a bit more. The only upside to Trump is making the repubs have to defend him and watching as he makes plain some of their favorite dog whistles.
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Dec 27, 2017 14:15
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Golbez posted:And finally: "why it isn't snow" I can see a way in which this works, but this comic hasn't earned that path. Your other points aside, please keep in mind that Alhazred is the one performing the translations.
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Dec 27, 2017 14:41
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That's my boy! Was getting worried this would the first year in long time I wouldn't be able to nominate Monty for "Worst Label."
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Dec 27, 2017 14:49
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It’s weird to me that the stance that pence is even slightly better than trump is getting so much friction. Pence is terrible but maybe not as apocalyptically terrible. It’s a matter of degrees, nobody (except prickly city) is saying pence is the solution all of our problems. I hope they both fall together. And neither of them is the focused slimy evil of Cruz. Low bars but celebrate what you can
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Dec 27, 2017 14:51
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Ambitious Spider posted:It’s weird to me that the stance that pence is even slightly better than trump is getting so much friction. Pence is terrible but maybe not as apocalyptically terrible. It’s a matter of degrees, nobody (except prickly city) is saying pence is the solution all of our problems. I hope they both fall together. W wasn't as corrupt or inept as Trump, but he started two more forever wars than Trump has because he had evil competent people around him and was able to persuade Congress to come along. So, Bush actually has done more damage to the country and world than Trump.
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Dec 27, 2017 14:53
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I guess one thing about Trump is that his innermost thoughts are always an open book, either through his constant tweeting or from leaks inside his organization. I forget who it was some months ago who said that he's running the most transparent presidency in history. And yeah, he has a long way to go still before he can beat W in deep, lasting damage to America and the world. At this rate he'll probably get there pretty soon though.
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Dec 27, 2017 14:57
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Zelda at it worst is owning strawmen and brutally kicking down open door  Other times, it's pretty ok 
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Dec 27, 2017 15:01
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Stultus Maximus posted:W wasn't as corrupt or inept as Trump, but he started two more forever wars than Trump has because he had evil competent people around him and was able to persuade Congress to come along. So, Bush actually has done more damage to the country and world than Trump. W was terrible and one of our worst, but willing To say “Islam is not the enemy” and didn’t engage his worst supporters in the way trump does. I can’t really say he had a lot more respect for our institutions (torture and the patriot act, etc...) I don’t think he would have warred with the fbi. But at least he wasn’t trying to turn us into a kleptocracy. Don’t get me wrong they’re both in like the top 3 worst and most damaging American Presidents. Hell I didn’t think I’d see a worse president in my lifetime, but the GOP is in a straight race to the bottom.
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Dec 27, 2017 15:05
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Golbez posted:What? I am so confused. Is he saying flying to Thailand causes global warming? But if you want snow why would you go to Thailand? Or is it a matter of, if there's no snow we might as well go to Thailand? And finally: "why it isn't snow" I can see a way in which this works, but this comic hasn't earned that path. The joke is that he wants to see snow, so he's going to make like his neighbors and go to Thailand for Christmas, but since Thailand is in the Southern hemisphere, the seasons are opposite and it will be summer and there will be no snow there.
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Dec 27, 2017 15:20
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I see no reason to think Trump would have acted less belligerent than GWB if he was in office on 9/11. The exact same neocons would have been surrounding him. VP Cheney, for fucks sake. Reminder that GWB was somewhat of a joke president before 9/11. The media creamed themselves over how SRS and PRESIDENTIAL he was because they needed to pretend he was serious president like in the movies. If ISIS-types sneak a dirty bomb into a us city tomorrow i'd much rather have that dominionist snake Pence in charge.
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Dec 27, 2017 15:25
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Golbez posted:What? I am so confused. Is he saying flying to Thailand causes global warming? But if you want snow why would you go to Thailand? Or is it a matter of, if there's no snow we might as well go to Thailand? The man is upset that there's no snow. If there's no snow he might as well go to Thailand. When he flys to Thailand he contributes to the global warming.
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Dec 27, 2017 15:33
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Dec 27, 2017 15:33
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Ambitious Spider posted:Pence is terrible but maybe not as apocalyptically terrible. Tell that to those that are LBGTQ.
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Dec 27, 2017 15:36
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Look at the GOP's insane tax bill they just passed or the garbage tier judges they have been nominating since GW Bush and tell me Trump is some kind of outlier. They've been attracting the same sort of people for decades since Nixon; Trump is just too dumb (or doesn't care) to realize he's supposed to do it on the down low so the "moderates" don't feel so bad when they vote and the round table cable shows don't have to talk about white supremacy mysteriously appearing out of the ether. Reagan was just Trump that knew how to dog whistle more effectively and he was loved for it.
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Dec 27, 2017 15:41
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Radish posted:Look at the GOP's insane tax bill they just passed or the garbage tier judges they have been nominating since GW Bush and tell me Trump is some kind of outlier. They've been attracting the same sort of people for decades since Nixon; Trump is just too dumb (or doesn't care) to realize he's supposed to do it on the down low so the "moderates" don't feel so bad when they vote and the round table cable shows don't have to talk about white supremacy mysteriously appearing out of the ether. This I think has been the hardest thing for a lot of people to realize because the media has for so long been toeing the line that both sides are equal and respectable. Now that Trump has shattered that illusion they have to look their Republican friends and family in the eye and realize they are monsters and always have been.
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Dec 27, 2017 15:45
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Yea it’s all very bad, and if we survive with people getting good and angry in 10-15 years there will be another presentable Republican to win and gently caress everybody over. Ambitious Spider fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Dec 27, 2017 |
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Dec 27, 2017 15:49
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 The greatest generation should be upset to see all these demonstrations against nazism after all they fought for.
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Dec 27, 2017 15:55
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Why the gently caress are we discussing if we whether kill our collective selves by noose or poison?
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Dec 27, 2017 15:57
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World Famous W posted:Why the gently caress are we discussing if we whether kill our collective selves by noose or poison? Because people are arguing that poison is all that bad.
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Dec 27, 2017 15:58
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Ambitious Spider posted:It’s weird to me that the stance that pence is even slightly better than trump is getting so much friction. Pence is terrible but maybe not as apocalyptically terrible. It’s a matter of degrees, nobody (except prickly city) is saying pence is the solution all of our problems. I hope they both fall together. Roy Moore combined Pence's religious fanaticism with Trump's authoritarianism and skeevy personal life. So glad we beat that rear end in a top hat. The question of Trump v. Pence really depends on how this replacement takes place. If Trump has a heart attack, Pence takes over and things proceed more or less the same, but with less tweeting. If Trump is assassinated, then the shock probably gives the GOP a chance to shove through lots of unpopular poo poo while people are off-balance. So I hope no idiot decides they have to kill Trump to save democracy. That was the point made by staging Julius Caesar with the trappings of Donald Trump: that political violence to prevent tyranny just accelerates the rise of tyranny, and keyboard warriors like Ted Rall should think twice before calling for revolution. But impeachment is another matter because it would have lots of ripple effects that have to be considered. First, the Dems must have already taken the House. The chance of House Republicans impeaching Trump is pretty much nil. Taking the House will improve things on many fronts. But then the Senate has to hold trial on Trump and needs a 2/3 majority to remove. So, best case scenario, we'd need to flip at least 12-15 Republican senators. For that to happen, there would have to be a lot of evidence, either from Mueller or from a Democratic House committee subpoenaing administration officials. Alternatively/additionally, there would have to be a lot of pressure on middling senators like Collins, Murkowski, and whoever else we could peel off. The evidence would likely implicate Pence as well, and it might be possible to impeach him on the same charges. Failing that, it would hobble his presidency and he'd likely be seen as a lame duck, the political world focusing on the next election which would be only a year and a half away. Those dozen GOP senators would now be on record as making the most significant check on Republican ambitions since Nixon. The solid wall of Republican orthodoxy would be broken. It's possible that they'd say "now that we have Pence, everything's back to normal," but I think that once they had checked one Republican president and compromised with the opposition, they'd be more likely to do so again. They would have made themselves "moderates" irrevocably, and they'd be pressured to stand up against other extremist actions in the future. On the other side, the Democrats would have shown they were willing to take the ultimate step against Republican extremism. The impulse to go along and compromise with evil would be beaten. There'd be no going back from voting to remove a president. The Democrats would have cemented themselves as the party of progress and opposition to Republican extremism. There's a cynical view that everyone in the political world just wants to get rid of Trump and get back to "normal." I don't think that's true. I think removing a president, something that has never been done before in U.S. history (unless you count Nixon), would reshape the political landscape for good. Progressives would be emboldened by knowing they sometimes win, and they'd be more energized in fighting the Pence agenda. Trump fanatics would be enraged and possibly violent, but that's something you can fight legally- politically, their movement would be discredited and sent back to the fringe where it belongs. There are the swing voters who held their noses and picked Trump. I have to think, though, that they'd see the light. If they never liked Trump to begin with, they might not admit they made a mistake voting for him but they would not go down with the ship either. They might support a Pence presidency, but they'd be just as likely to turn against him, especially if he's implicated. We can debate all day whether Pence or Trump are worse in the abstract, but in the real world the process of removing Trump would strengthen the left and weaken the right overall, and I can't see any downside. And aside from all of the political concerns, it's just the right thing to do. I've believed for a while that impeachment has been underused in American history, and it's allowed the presidency to become more powerful than it should have been. Andrew Jackson overruled a Supreme Court order to commit genocide. Ronald Reagan sold weapons to terrorists against specific Congressional demands. George W. Bush lied to Congress to get approval for a war. These are all cases the Founders would certainly have considered impeachable, but Congress failed to act and the presidency grew stronger. On the other hand, Bill Clinton's impeachment was clearly a foregone conclusion that was based entirely on politics. Gingrich went on a fishing expedition and eventually found something, and whether Clinton deserved it or not it's clear the GOP were only acting politically and not based on the rule of law. If we then decide not to impeach a clearly guilty president over political calculation, we'd be guilty of the same crime, and future presidents would learn that they could get away with political crimes as long as they pick a VP who's even worse. Congress is supposed to be coequal to the presidency, but that's only true if they act like it. Ultimately, though, all of this is academic because we control nothing. We're in the minority, so we can't impeach the president without Republican help, and there's no way that's going to happen. So that's where our focus should be: winning some drat elections so we can get our agenda enacted- no matter what your specific concern, it will be better addressed with Democrats in control of Congress. So that's the takeaway: TL;DR: Unless your name is Robert Mueller, there's very little you can do to directly attack the Trump/Pence presidency. Winning the House is a necessary precursor to impeaching Trump and it also is the best way to protect LGBT rights, save healthcare, fight inequality, help the environment, or advance any other progressive cause. The best thing you can do is find a shaky Republican House member near you and work like hell to get them out in 2018.
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Dec 27, 2017 15:59
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Katt posted:
Richard Spencer was a WW2 vet?
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Dec 27, 2017 16:01
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How long would it take for the argument to shift from "president orange-troll vs. future president sexually-repressed-white-man" into "how do we sharpen the pitchforks?"?
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Dec 27, 2017 16:01
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Ironically enough, an upside of Trump, compared to other Republicans that would do basically all of the same stuff, is that he gets everyone good and angry, and when people are angry they are more activist. The problem is, a lot of those people are only interested in removing Trump, because they're angry about his tweets or the fact that he brags about assaulting women, while some other evil hellfucker, like oh say for example Mike Pence who is terrified of women, would not do these very specific things. Basically, I'm worried that if Trump gets impeached, everyone will hang their MISSION ACCOMPLISHED banner on the figurative aircraft carrier of the Internet while the country's wealth continues more quietly and less outrageously to be devoured by oligarchs both American and otherwise. Remember: the GOP still runs Congress, and they still want to destroy us and everything we stand for. In short, Mike Pence is more dangerous because in addition to being noticeably more concerned than Trump about the insidious threat of gay people existing, people get less mad about him. We need people mad. A hollow victory could only serve to make us complacent. Oh, and also taking Pence down with Trump would only help a little, because even then we'd just have President Paul Ryan. We need a good downticket wave or two before we can actually change anything for the better. Mad voters can help get us one.
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Dec 27, 2017 16:05
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Even if they have identical policies and beliefs, Trump's cult of personality and open willingness to just say horrendous poo poo on public channels is still worse because it emboldens and even indoctrinates racist, bigoted shitheads in a way Pence's couched Republican rhetoric doesn't. They're both saying the same poo poo and ultimately the only difference in their practice would be that Pence would use dogwhistles for Trump's bullhorns, but even that affects day to day life in the social sphere. I've watched the kind of poo poo this can start firsthand. Would "President Pence" create a utopia with no social ills? gently caress no, it would be a disaster. But the way Trump talks changes the way people across the nation talk. And that hurts people too. Like someone said, this is still basically like arguing about your preferred method of execution, but Trump's effect on the social climate is too big to say they'd be identical.
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Dec 27, 2017 16:06
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Horrible Lurkbeast posted:How long would it take for the argument to shift from "president orange-troll vs. future president sexually-repressed-white-man" into "how do we sharpen the pitchforks?"? It really worries me that accelerationism is looking better and better these days 
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Dec 27, 2017 16:07
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Vib Rib posted:Even if they have identical policies and beliefs, Trump's cult of personality and open willingness to just say horrendous poo poo on public channels is still worse because it emboldens and even indoctrinates racist, bigoted shitheads in a way Pence's couched Republican rhetoric doesn't. They're both saying the same poo poo and ultimately the only difference in their practice would be that Pence would use dogwhistles for Trump's bullhorns, but even that affects day to day life in the social sphere. I've watched the kind of poo poo this can start firsthand. Would "President Pence" create a utopia with no social ills? gently caress no, it would be a disaster. But the way Trump talks changes the way people across the nation talk. And that hurts people too. Uh, I don't know how to break this to you, but there's no unringing the bell here. Those racists are already emboldened, they're not going to suddenly get less motivated just because their guy is out. Hell, if anything, they will be much more pissed off. The cultural landscape is here to stay, there's no going back, no matter who's in charge.
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Dec 27, 2017 16:11
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Dr. Stab posted:Richard Spencer was a WW2 vet? No, but he's endured so much at the hands of the harsh Alt-Left that he's clearly on the same standing. gently caress this Nazi sympathizing piece of trash forever
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Dec 27, 2017 16:11
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WampaLord posted:Uh, I don't know how to break this to you, but there's no unringing the bell here. Those racists are already emboldened, they're not going to suddenly get less motivated just because their guy is out. Hell, if anything, they will be much more pissed off. Yes, but if Trump is impeached and becomes a disgraced former president, then they're no longer treated as a valid part of the political landscape. We'll get a lot fewer tedious articles about trying to understand these poor white people who are just suffering from economic anxiety.
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Dec 27, 2017 16:20
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My fear is that two days after Mike Pence is sworn in as President following a Trump impeachment, the @POTUS Twitter account spits out some meaningless PR message like it used to do in the Obama era, and then I start seeing all the comfortable middle-aged people in my Facebook feed posting stuff like "SO GLAD to see a return to SANITY!" or "Like this post if you're just happy to have a functioning adult in the White House again!" like, you know, the kind of people that start counting any Republican who says something critical of Trump as an ally, because #resisting that one specific person is the most important battle to fight right now e: Jurgan posted:Yes, but if Trump is impeached and becomes a disgraced former president, then they're no longer treated as a valid part of the political landscape. We'll get a lot fewer tedious articles about trying to understand these poor white people who are just suffering from economic anxiety. well THANK GOD we won't see any more editorials about how to win over a significantly overrepresented sector of the electorate, because those are the worst
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Dec 27, 2017 16:23
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loquacius posted:My fear is that two days after Mike Pence is sworn in as President following a Trump impeachment, the @POTUS Twitter account spits out some meaningless PR message like it used to do in the Obama era, and then I start seeing all the comfortable middle-aged people in my Facebook feed posting stuff like "SO GLAD to see a return to SANITY!" or "Like this post if you're just happy to have a functioning adult in the White House again!" This has been said, but who cares? If Trump is impeached and removed, Pence will be completely impotent.
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Dec 27, 2017 16:25
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Stultus Maximus posted:This has been said, but who cares? If Trump is impeached and removed, Pence will be completely impotent. in what way  the GOP will still run Congress and they will rally around him because he's (a) racist, (b) a dedicated servant of their rich donors, and (c) decorous Any GOP-run Congress that (miraculously) agrees to remove Trump from office will frame the entire thing as a pro-Pence movement and come out of it just as powerful as before.
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Dec 27, 2017 16:26
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The only way Trump is removed is with a Democratic super wave so at that point I couldn't care less which body is holding the President's chair unless they all go to jail as they should.
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Dec 27, 2017 16:29
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Radish posted:The only way Trump is removed is with a Democratic super wave so at that point I couldn't care less which body is holding the President's chair unless they all go to jail as they should. Well yeah if we manage to take Congress, by all means fire away. The House is more valuable here, though (since control of the House gets you #2 in the line of succession) and it is particularly out of reach for us until at least 2020 due to gerrymandering. That's no reason not to make that a goal, though.
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Dec 27, 2017 16:34
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Every time I see my dad he makes this argument. You don't fix national problems by well-intentioned liberals donating to the IRS, that's not how it loving works. The government sets the rules of the game and everyone follows. You're not required to hold yourself to more stringent rules than everyone else just because you think you are unfairly favored, especially when it would have zero impact on the problems you see, but you should speak out against those rules in hopes of changing them. How is this so difficult to understand?
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Dec 27, 2017 16:47
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Dave Inc. posted:Every time I see my dad he makes this argument. You don't fix national problems by well-intentioned liberals donating to the IRS, that's not how it loving works. The government sets the rules of the game and everyone follows. You're not required to hold yourself to more stringent rules than everyone else just because you think you are unfairly favored, especially when it would have zero impact on the problems you see, but you should speak out against those rules in hopes of changing them. yeah this argument is literally "we don't need a social safety net because we have charities"
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Dec 27, 2017 16:49
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I would happily give the few hundreds bucks back to have a stable, sane, caring government. Unfortunately, that ain't an option so ill take the money to buy drugs, 'aight?
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Dec 27, 2017 16:55
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