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Tender Bender posted:It means understanding that you are a tool for the force and not vice versa, the film explicitly states this. Know that you are part of it and not its master. Snoke throws it around like it's a fun superpower and how does that work out for him? Yeah. The Force seeks balance but you have all these motherfuckers pissing it off and messing with it’s baking cookies thinking they can get a nibble or whole cookie so you get exterminations periodically using tools like Anakin.
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Dec 27, 2017 20:35
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Mymla posted:"This space magic trick we've never seen before did not work in the way I wanted it to THAT MAKES NO SENSE" I am saying it's a lackluster, anti-climactic wet fart of a way to kill a major character, doubly so when it's in no way proven or clear that's what killed him. You guys might be loving it but I'd dare say public reaction hasn't been too enthused. ED: Seriously if 'using too much power' is legitimately the reason that is such a dumb reason for his death that I still hope that's not really the answer.
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Dec 27, 2017 20:36
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Blazing Ownager posted:I am saying it's a lackluster, anti-climactic wet fart of a way to kill a major character, doubly so when it's in no way proven or clear that's what killed him. Whoever said the visual language suggested luke "letting go" as opposed to being killed was spot on. That is just so clearly what happened that you'd have to be willfully dense to miss it.
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Dec 27, 2017 20:37
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That's because a very vocal group of folks want Star Wars to be Luke, Han, Leia and Chewie forever and ever and ever forever
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Dec 27, 2017 20:38
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Blazing Ownager posted:I am saying it's a lackluster, anti-climactic wet fart of a way to kill a major character, doubly so when it's in no way proven or clear that's what killed him. Did you watch the movie or just read the script, because I can't think of anything more clearer than a monk explaining to the camera exactly what he accomplished, then calmly watching the sunset as he transcends the physical plane.
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Dec 27, 2017 20:38
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I hope the last movie is basically Kylo going “Okay I’m gonna be a Sith on this half of the universe while you go be a Jedi on that side and the only time we get together is for awkward Thanksgiving Porg dinners. One Jedi one Sith, we balanced, let’s just keep it that way” And the rest of it is Porg madness. Kylo spends his evenings drinking at the Sith strip club while Rey makes feasts and play time for everyone
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Dec 27, 2017 20:38
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BardoTheConsumer posted:Whoever said the visual language suggested luke "letting go" as opposed to being killed was spot on. That is just so clearly what happened that you'd have to be willfully dense to miss it. "I bought my sister and my friends a few minutes of time. It's time to let go, they got it from here, bro." Sorry but it was a dumb death in service of a dumb plot. Tender Bender posted:Did you watch the movie or just read the script, because I can't think of anything more clearer than a monk explaining to the camera exactly what he accomplished, then calmly watching the sunset as he transcends the physical plane. If he had a reason to - like Obi-Won wanting to die to be more powerful - it'd been fine. But there was zero indication of any of that. It was a terrible send off to the character pretty much.
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Dec 27, 2017 20:39
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Waffles Inc. posted:Why is it odd that Rey is so good? Luke is "the best bush pilot in the outer rim territories" and is able to not just not die, but be tremendously effective his very first time in an X-Wing. Immediate hyper-competence is like a thing for Star War characters. It's not even "immediate" hyper-competence. A New Hope establishes that Luke is a talented pilot before he becomes a fighter ace. The Force Awakens establishes that Rey is a talented melee combatant before she picks up a lightsaber. Presumably they've been honing those skills for years. All the movies ask you to do is accept that some of their prior skill is transferable to a new context, and that being strong in the Force gives you an edge. People dwelling on it is weird and obnoxious.
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Dec 27, 2017 20:39
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wizard on a water slide posted:It's not even "immediate" hyper-competence. A New Hope establishes that Luke is a talented pilot before he becomes a fighter ace. The Force Awakens establishes that Rey is a talented melee combatant before she picks up a lightsaber. Presumably they've been honing those skills for years. Yeah exactly. It's  that people get hung up on it
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Dec 27, 2017 20:40
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Waffles Inc. posted:That's because a very vocal group of folks want Star Wars to be Luke, Han, Leia and Chewie forever and ever Sure, that's what helped to do in the old EU in the end. There was an entire generation of new Jedi knights who could have taken over, but instead it ended up with Luke, Han and Leia in their 60s and 70s while the new Jedi are either killed off or vanish into parts unknown, Han and Leia's sons both die and their daughter was being written like she was still a teenager even when the character was probably closer to 40 than 30. Gatts posted:I hope the last movie is basically Kylo going “Okay I’m gonna be a Sith on this half of the universe while you go be a Jedi on that side and the only time we get together is for awkward Thanksgiving Porg dinners. One Jedi one Sith, we balanced, let’s just keep it that way” I'm looking forward to Return of the Star Wars Holiday Special. Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Dec 27, 2017 |
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Dec 27, 2017 20:41
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Tender Bender posted:Like it's not a coincidence that every strong-in-the-force protagonist accomplishes great feats and seems able to perform things that should be impossible for them. It's almost as if they have a strong connection to this intangible presence that binds all things. I can't really understand how you can watch any Star Wars movie and walk away thinking "I see, so the force is basically a skill tree you grind up". I dunno maybe because of Empire Strikes back where Luke gets clowned by a Jedi who has had years of practice and training at using the Force. Or Attack of the Clones where Anakin and Obi-Wan get clowned by a Sith who has had years of practice using the Force. And then that same Sith gets clowned by a Jedi who has had even more years of practice using said Force. Or unpracticed Luke being barely able to pull his Lightsaber to himself before he gets eaten by a Wampa. Individually crazy things can happen with unpracticed users like blowing up the Death Star, Pod Racing, etc. But consistent tapping into that without practice is another matter. Or it was until Rey arrived. Maybe she's just meant to be even stronger than all who have come before.
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Dec 27, 2017 20:41
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BardoTheConsumer posted:Whoever said the visual language suggested luke "letting go" as opposed to being killed was spot on. That is just so clearly what happened that you'd have to be willfully dense to miss it. I thought it was an exertion thing, but like both interpretations and I think they fit the theme of Luke making peace with the Force and his past mistakes. In the end HE decided his job was done, he went out accomplishing what he wanted without giving Kylo closure. Legends are disappointing when you get to know them, they can't solve all the problems on their own, but they can light up the way and be symbols for hope.
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Dec 27, 2017 20:42
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Blazing Ownager posted:"I bought my sister and my friends a few minutes of time. It's time to let go, they got it from here, bro." He knows that he has just inspired a resistance and sparked the beginnings of a new crop of Jedi that will have a chance to be better than he was. It was a lot more than just buying a few minutes. "What, do you think I'm just gonna walk out and face down the entire First Order with a laser sword" That's what Luke Skywalker the Jedi Legend would do, and that's exactly what he does. He becomes the Legend. Be as reductive as you want to make your point, but I'm not buying it.
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Dec 27, 2017 20:42
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Waffles Inc. posted:Why is it odd that Rey is so good? Luke is "the best bush pilot in the outer rim territories" and is able to not just not die, but be tremendously effective his very first time in an X-Wing. Immediate hyper-competence is like a thing for Star War characters. But both characters also struggled. Luke needed help all the way (he didn't face off Vader in ANH, Obi-Wan did and also needed guidance when it came to destroying the death star and using the force, not to mention his later training by Yoda and continued support by Obi-Wan) and Anakin as (we are lead to believe) the most powerful Jedi in history loses a light sabre duel to old guy Dooku and is later beaten by Obi-Wan (after decades of Jedi training). So yes we are used to our Protagonist's being extremely _talented_ but it has always been pure and raw talent (just like Kylo Ren btw) highlighted by some very specific skills they have already mastered early on (flying ships in the case of Anakin and Luke though Luke did seem to have experience with space vehicles for years). Rey just seems to master everything without effort. This is not only beyond what was shown by previous characters, it also goes against the heroe's journey because Rey simply doesn't need to overcome any obstacles. Her parents were teased as something she has to deal with but what effect did that really have on her so far? Really none, it doesn't stop her to be powerful and master the force, she isn't held back by anything and neither Snoke nor Kylo Ren use her upbringing against her. It's kind of telling that Yoda has to show up to Luke of all people and not Rey. The movie literally establishes that it's not her who needs lessons about the force (Yoda says as much), it's the freaking Jedi master who saved the universe who still gets taught because ~stronk woman~ Rey has already everything she needs... it's just jarring and I say this as someone who was on the fence about the whole "Rey is a Mary Sue" discussion after TFA because there was enough room left to grow her character (including her backstory) but this didn't happen in TLJ, they just doubled down on "Rey is awesome ". I wouldn't even mind her powers if they did something interesting with her but they didn't. They teased the audience with the possibility of her joining Kylo (at least to some extent) but then decided "nope, she is just the next Luke but without all the boring stuff like character development and personal struggles". Her whole arc so far is a big "meh" and at this point Kylo Ren is the character with more storytelling potential though I don't know if this is intentional or just by accident.
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Dec 27, 2017 20:43
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Rey doesn't seem to do that much unprecedented force things.
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Dec 27, 2017 20:43
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Ginette Reno posted:I dunno maybe because of Empire Strikes back where Luke gets clowned by a Jedi who has had years of practice and training at using the Force. Or Attack of the Clones where Anakin and Obi-Wan get clowned by a Sith who has had years of practice using the Force. And then that same Sith gets clowned by a Jedi who has had even more years of practice using said Force. Or unpracticed Luke being barely able to pull his Lightsaber to himself before he gets eaten by a Wampa. Rey gets clowned by a Sith who has years of training as well. You can definitely train and hone your skills at using the force as a tool. It can help you accomplish things easily. It's also not the true strength of the Force. See ESB when Luke asks Yoda if the dark side is stronger.
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Dec 27, 2017 20:44
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I'm not going to add them up, but a substantial number, maybe even a majority, of the supernatural things that Luke does in the OT involve reaching out with his mind/feelings, rather than lifting rocks. Always looked to the horizon, he has.
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Dec 27, 2017 20:45
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Just got back from watching Empire Strikes Back. What a bunch of bullshit. Did Luke seriously pull his lightsaber out of the snowbank using his mind? So the force can be used for telekinesis now? They've ruined Star Wars. Jedi are apparently acrobatic magicians now or some poo poo. Also, what the gently caress is up with that puppet Yoma? Is it just me or are special effects getting worse? And that twist ending? Am i supposed to believe that Darth Vader is actually Lukes father? I mean, what was all that poo poo Obi-Wan told Luke about his dad being the best pilot in the galaxy? How can that be Vader? The guy literally spun out of control before the Death Star exploded. Doesn't seem like such a great pilot to me. Between Yo Yo Ma, this bullshit twist and that barely serviceable ending, I'm confident when I say that Star Wars is loving dead.
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Dec 27, 2017 20:46
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Rey gets stone cold stunnered and has to have her online boyfriend from Canada save her, and then runs away when someone else rams the ship she's on giving her the chance to escape, but that doesn't fit the Mary Sue narrative so we ignore it.
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Dec 27, 2017 20:47
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Ep 9: Rey is really Rey Mysterio
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Dec 27, 2017 20:48
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LinkesAuge posted:it also goes against the heroe's journey because Rey simply doesn't need to overcome any obstacles. That's a big problem with the new trilogy in general. Rey doesn't have much in the way of internal conflict. She wants to save Kylo, but it doesn't seem like she has even come close to turning to the dark side yet, and she hasn't had to make many particularly difficult choices. It's easy to gently caress off and leave Luke when she's basically a savant anyways who has already beaten Kylo once. She exposes herself to personal danger by going to try to save Kylo, but it's not like the Resistance is definitively hosed if she dies. Luke is still alive at that point, and Leia. For Luke the stakes in ESB were huge. By abandoning his training he almost turned to the dark side because he wasn't ready to face Vader. And he not only failed to help his friends but almost got them killed anyways. And then Yoda got older and sicker and it was too late to finish his training afterwards. And at that point Luke is (as far as he knows) the only hope for the Rebellion.
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Dec 27, 2017 20:48
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It's pretty clear Luke is suffering from deep clinical depression in TLJ. He simply gave up; he could have survived the force projection, he merely chose not to.
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Dec 27, 2017 20:51
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Tender Bender posted:Rey gets clowned by a Sith who has years of training as well. You can definitely train and hone your skills at using the force as a tool. It can help you accomplish things easily. It's also not the true strength of the Force. See ESB when Luke asks Yoda if the dark side is stronger. At this point it's hard to say Yoda is right. This film pushes hard towards the idea that the Force wants balance in all things. If the Sith win, a Jedi rises, and vice versa. I'd therefore argue that both sides are equally strong and necessary aspects of the universe. Both sides of the Force wax and wane in strength but things always equal out.
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Dec 27, 2017 20:52
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Ginette Reno posted:That's a big problem with the new trilogy in general. Rey doesn't have much in the way of internal conflict. She wants to save Kylo, but it doesn't seem like she has even come close to turning to the dark side yet, and she hasn't had to make many particularly difficult choices. It's easy to gently caress off and leave Luke when she's basically a savant anyways who has already beaten Kylo once. She exposes herself to personal danger by going to try to save Kylo, but it's not like the Resistance is definitively hosed if she dies. Luke is still alive at that point, and Leia. The entire point of the Rey/Kylo scenes is that she was being seduced by the dark side. Ask yourself why does she want to "save" him so much, and what does that mean? What does her journey into the cave and realization that she is alone mean, and why does that make her so drawn to the only person who seems to really get her? Why is Kylo's worldview so enticing to her until he gets overexcited and suggests they murder all her friends on the first date?
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Dec 27, 2017 20:53
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I can agree with Rey's arc feeling weak. Her relationship with Luke I thought was fine, it's basically a jaded old man getting a new perspective by talking to what amounts to a child when it comes to the whole Force deal, but she doesn't get much other than her weird "thing" with Kylo which mostly gets resolved. TLJ made me like Rey less as a character, she was basically tossed to the wayside.
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Dec 27, 2017 20:54
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Ginette Reno posted:And he not only failed to help his friends but almost got them killed anyways I mean...no? The only reason Leia, Lando and Threepio weren't blown to bits or captured by Vader's star destroyer after their escape is because R2 fixed the hyperdrive. No Luke, no R2 Luke showing up helped his friends, unambiguously
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Dec 27, 2017 20:55
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Ginette Reno posted:At this point it's hard to say Yoda is right. This film pushes hard towards the idea that the Force wants balance in all things. If the Sith win, a Jedi rises, and vice versa. I'd therefore argue that both sides are equally strong and necessary aspects of the universe. Both sides of the Force wax and wane in strength but things always equal out. The Force was actually the Lucas/Disney movie machine all along
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Dec 27, 2017 20:56
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Ginette Reno posted:At this point it's hard to say Yoda is right. This film pushes hard towards the idea that the Force wants balance in all things. If the Sith win, a Jedi rises, and vice versa. I'd therefore argue that both sides are equally strong and necessary aspects of the universe. Both sides of the Force wax and wane in strength but things always equal out. I mean, it also depends on how you define "strength". It's like asking someone if The Incredible Hulk or a mother's love for her children is stronger. ...I mean, the answer is obviously Hulk, but it's complicated
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Dec 27, 2017 20:56
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Ginette Reno posted:At this point it's hard to say Yoda is right. This film pushes hard towards the idea that the Force wants balance in all things. If the Sith win, a Jedi rises, and vice versa. I'd therefore argue that both sides are equally strong and necessary aspects of the universe. Both sides of the Force wax and wane in strength but things always equal out. Yeah, that's true. I do think the films make it really clear that focusing on like, task-specific stuff at the expense of seeing the big picture will cost you, usually in the form of your evil apprentice shanking you/dropping you off the cliff, or fighting a war on behalf of your president who turns out to be Satan.
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Dec 27, 2017 20:56
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Or to put it another way, actually: is it stronger to be able to kill your enemies in battle, or to beat death by transcending the limitations of flesh? Because Sith are really good at the former, but the latter eludes them. Even Darth Plagueis the "Wise", the legendary Sith who "beat" death, was still mortal.
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Dec 27, 2017 21:01
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Blazing Ownager posted:
Oh. So this is not an isolated incident and you're incapable of watching movies in general, not this one in particular. 'Wanted to die to be more powerful' is probably the dumbest thing anyone has ever said about a star wars movie, and that's including Lucas himself.
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Dec 27, 2017 21:07
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Waffles Inc. posted:I mean...no? The only reason Leia, Lando and Threepio weren't blown to bits or captured by Vader's star destroyer after their escape is because R2 fixed the hyperdrive. He also nearly got them captured again because they had to come back and save him. And he nearly got himself killed or captured which would have doomed the Rebellion and meant their deaths in the long term anyways even if they'd escaped there. Tender Bender posted:The entire point of the Rey/Kylo scenes is that she was being seduced by the dark side. Ask yourself why does she want to "save" him so much, and what does that mean? What does her journey into the cave and realization that she is alone mean, and why does that make her so drawn to the only person who seems to really get her? Why is Kylo's worldview so enticing to her until he gets overexcited and suggests they murder all her friends on the first date? But you never get the sense at all that she's close to turning. With Luke you can clearly tell in both ESB and Jedi that he's in such a raw emotional state that his journey to the dark side is realllllllll close. With Rey I never get that feeling. She almost joins Kylo not because she's interested in his plans but because she thinks he has turned back to the good side. She only abandons him when he's like oh oops I only killed Snoke because I want to be master. She was never in any danger of turning.
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Dec 27, 2017 21:07
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Ginette Reno posted:He also nearly got them captured again because they had to come back and save him. And he nearly got himself killed or captured which would have doomed the Rebellion and meant their deaths in the long term anyways even if they'd escaped there. No matter what events took place or happened, if Luke hadn't shown up with R2, the Falcon is either killed or captured. Full stop.
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Dec 27, 2017 21:10
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It that’s sort of the point. Luke says she saw the dark side and didn’t even try to resist it. She doesn’t even know she’s turning or being seduced by it. She keeps going all the way until the very end and doesn’t even realize it even with the good intentions of saving Kylo. Like Anakin. The movie does a great job of showing how easily one could get seduced trying to do a good thing
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Dec 27, 2017 21:12
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Rey is more good-natured compared to Luke, and there's interesting stuff in there when it comes to a lonely but kind-hearted (if a bit impulsive) girl looking for a friend or a father figure that IMHO gets way underutilized. They kinda buried the Kylo thread, Luke's gone, Han is gone, she's not really seduced by the Dark Side (which is another cool concept that I wish became a theme of this trilogy, Rey being the first Jedi to "get" the Dark Side), so she doesn't have much to do now other than fighting Kylo because duh, he bad.
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Dec 27, 2017 21:13
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Just saw this thing. It was a meh kind of movie until the robed skywalker walked into the base on the mineral planet. Then I was like: HOLY poo poo YES. Then when all the guys were shooting the poo poo out of the area where Luke was I was like: HA YOU FUKIN NOOBS THAT AINT GONNA TAKE HIM OUT. All the way through him brushing his shoulder off and dodging Kylo's attacks I was loving it. Then the reveal that it was all some bullshit fake projection and luke disappears and dies on a rock across the galaxy. gently caress disney. gently caress this movie.
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Dec 27, 2017 21:15
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Gatts posted:It that’s sort of the point. Luke says she saw the dark side and didn’t even try to resist it. She doesn’t even know she’s turning or being seduced by it. She keeps going all the way until the very end and doesn’t even realize it even with the good intentions of saving Kylo. Like Anakin. The movie does a great job of showing how easily one could get seduced trying to do a good thing Yeah, I mean the scene with them reaching out and touching hands was tense for this reason. I find "falling to evil inadvertently, because you think it's right" to be more compelling than "wanting to join the evil dude who calls himself Dark."
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Dec 27, 2017 21:16
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I kinda wish they'd actually tell us what the "dark side" is even supposed to be. I like how it works in the old republic video games (expanded universe in general? idk), where it's pretty much just allowing yourself to feel emotions as opposed to completely repressing them like Jedi do, but I don't really get the impression that's true in the films. Maybe the it just means you think hitler was right.
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Dec 27, 2017 21:16
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Vitamin P posted:The resistance are antifa so they are coded as being leftist, also they are good and cool and caring so also leftists. lol, what is this stupid poo poo? Are you in your first year of college or something?
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Dec 27, 2017 21:17
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This is the second Star Wars without a lightsaber fight, right? Since Luke was a projection?
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Dec 27, 2017 21:18
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