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poe meater posted:How do you guys negotiate with your current employer in regards to a pay increase about a fairly unique position where it's hard to compare? I would say I'm almost close to indispensable but really who knows. You figure out that you're not nearly as indispensable as you think. Even if it impacts business temporarily you absolute are replaceable. Make sure you negotiate from a position of being the bet fit, not that rear end in a top hat that would be too painful to get rid of but we will if we have to.
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Nov 25, 2017 01:54
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poe meater posted:How do you guys negotiate with your current employer in regards to a pay increase about a fairly unique position where it's hard to compare? I would say I'm almost close to indispensable but really who knows. In general it’s fairly tough to negotiate in these kind of positions since you don’t really have leverage. Depending on how well you get along with your manager you could try to convince him you deserve a raise based on performance goals and/or the things you achieved that benefits the company more than if you’d just do what’s expected. You’re at their mercy though because you’re already doing that job for your current paycheck, so you need to really explain why they should suddenly start paying you more for doing the same job. The only leverage you have is leaving and mentioning that may have them start thinking about how to replace you.
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Nov 25, 2017 07:51
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From my own experience the best way to frame it is: - I went out and did discovery in the market and I believe I'm worth $X based on competing offers of $X. - I didn't come here to put a gun to your head. I'd like to continue working here, let's correct my compensation so that my market value doesn't motivate me to leave. - I'm specifically worth this correction because of <X, Y, and Z tangible goals and accomplishments you've already made> The lovely things you could say, and do not say, are that it will cost so much to replace you, or that they've been getting a good deal so far because you were underpaid and now it's time to pay up. The former because you're now talking about imposing costs on them punitively, as opposed to making the conversation collaborative and constructive. The latter you do not say because so long as you're employed by someone else and not an equal partner they're paying you less than you make them and complaining about that means that they need to stop thinking of you as a useful employee.
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Nov 27, 2017 15:59
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I appreciate the thoughts and insights. I already been approved for a raise. The actual numbers will be the most difficult part which I'm not even sure of. Probably discuss it later this week. I only answer to my boss and we work closely together. We have a good relationship in and out of work. I don't think it will hurt to ask for a significant amount as he knows my work which is directly tied to revenue.
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Nov 27, 2017 17:24
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So my company is getting a major restructure and my team lead is finally becoming an official manager. Considering my next review is gonna be by him, any tips on negotiating? I was planning on getting a pretty large raise after entering the role a bit below market. I just feel like this might have gotten even more complicated than it already was 
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Nov 27, 2017 23:41
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I would like to personally thank all of the posters that have contributed their expertise to this thread. Your good advice has helped me dramatically improve my compensation and career outlook over the last year. This time last year I was working in a job that I liked and was reluctant to leave, but where I believed I was underpaid. I didn’t have any other offers though - and therefore nothing to confirm that belief - so on the thread’s advice I got outside my comfort zone and applied to a bunch of other jobs. I figured if my estimation of my own value was accurate then someone else out there would agree with it. By politely declining to be the first to provide a target salary, I got offers beyond even my most ambitious targets. The work that my original employer had seen fit to reward with a 2% raise the previous year was enough to earn an offer on the open market for double my original salary. I’ve been working for my new employer for the past 6 months and just this last week received a promotion to a senior position with another 20% raise, so a 140% increase in salary relative to where I was at one year ago, with much better benefits. Obviously my family and I are overjoyed at this development so I wanted to express my thanks and hopefully provide some encouragement to others in similar situations (and alright, to brag a little bit too). You guys have been a tremendous resource and I am incredibly grateful.
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Nov 30, 2017 20:22
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That's awesome! Congrats on that score of a salary. I am about to act on the advice here too, hopefully I'll have half as much luck. The information here I could never get from my coworkers.
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Nov 30, 2017 22:30
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It’s always awesome to read results like this. With such an increase in pay I guess a certain amount of bragging is justified 
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Dec 2, 2017 14:17
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My brother has been contract to hire at a company for 6 months. He's changing fields to a development role. This is his first gig, and they hired him (to the contract) with very little experience. He was given the opportunity to sign on as a normal employee today, but they're offering $65k. He was hoping for $80k. Glassdoor (for what that's worth) says the average in his area for a Jr Android Dev is $78k, and Android Dev is $90k. Any of these numbers, including their initial offer, is over the median income for the area, but this isn't a complete tech desert either, there are plenty of other companies in his area that do what he wants to do. He has savings, and is in a place where he can take some risk (no kids, no debt, young, etc), but he likes it at the company, and honestly would likely take the job at $65k, at least for now. He asked me if asking for $90k is too big a counter. I'd normally agree with his logic (ask high, negotiate down to his $80k preferred number), but I think with them anchored so low, and with his lack of experience, a better strategy would be to ask for $80k. If he gets that, great! If not, stick it out for another 6-12 months for the experience, since it's his first gig, then look elsewhere. Thoughts? Grumpwagon fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Dec 5, 2017 |
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Dec 5, 2017 21:05
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If I can’t tell from Glassdoor what a good salary range for a very niche position is, and they don’t tell me what they’re offering, do I just throw a number out that I’d like to make based on similar but nowhere near equivalent positions?
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Dec 5, 2017 21:35
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areyoucontagious posted:If I can’t tell from Glassdoor what a good salary range for a very niche position is, and they don’t tell me what they’re offering, do I just throw a number out that I’d like to make based on similar but nowhere near equivalent positions?
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Dec 5, 2017 22:00
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Grumpwagon posted:My brother has been contract to hire at a company for 6 months. He's changing fields to a development role. This is his first gig, and they hired him (to the contract) with very little experience. He was given the opportunity to sign on as a normal employee today, but they're offering $65k. He was hoping for $80k. I'd make a case that I'm worth $90k and see what they say. Why surrender $10k without a fight?
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Dec 6, 2017 06:39
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:From my own experience the best way to frame it is: Bringing this back up because it's relevant for me again. I went out to do my discovery and I received two job offers, both of which I ended up turning down for different reasons. Both were a decent jump from my current salary/benefits and were internal positions (I'm in consulting) but would have required me to move after I just moved (less than three months at the time of the offers) to a city I've been wanting to live in for a while or just wasn't the best fit. Is this discussion path still worth pursuing if I don't have the offers currently, since I already turned them down, when discussing compensation with my current company? I know what I'm worth on the market, even if I didn't want to take those specific positions but I'm not sure if I should bring up the fact that I've gone exploring if I'm not prepared to jump ship with an extended offer sitting in hand.
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Dec 7, 2017 18:37
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Yeah you can just say "I have an offer for <amount>" even if you decided not to take it. The downside is, if they say "okay well go take that then", you won't be able to. Hopefully this doesn't affect your confidence in how you say what you have to - you have to believe you have that offer(and...it'd probably be pretty easy for you to go get another internal offer if you've already done it twice, so you kinda do.)
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Dec 7, 2017 18:45
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Yeah you can just say "I have an offer for <amount>" even if you decided not to take it. The downside is, if they say "okay well go take that then", you won't be able to. Hopefully this doesn't affect your confidence in how you say what you have to - you have to believe you have that offer(and...it'd probably be pretty easy for you to go get another internal offer if you've already done it twice, so you kinda do.) Just had a talk with my manager and the promotion I mentioned earlier in the thread is looking much more likely as he's recommended me for the jump and his boss (partner - head of our group) supports the promotion. So, I think I'll try to line up another offer or two around the time I find out if I'm promoted (should know by January) and the pay increase that comes along with that. If it's not where I want to be, we'll revisit this conversation so I can actually leave if they don't want to play ball. Chaotic Flame fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Dec 8, 2017 |
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Dec 7, 2017 23:57
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I'm interviewing with a company that has already given me their benefits pamphlet complete with prices for everything. If they want to press me for a number, how do I go about putting it back on them without the standard "pay is part of the whole compensation package"?
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Dec 13, 2017 06:13
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Katosabi posted:I'm interviewing with a company that has already given me their benefits pamphlet complete with prices for everything. If they want to press me for a number, how do I go about putting it back on them without the standard "pay is part of the whole compensation package"? You tell them it's negotiable, and ask to hear what they have budgeted for the position. You and the person you are speaking with will dance decreasingly elegantly toward "no you first". Eventually someone folds, or takes their ball and goes home. I've run it down to "you can tell me what you're offering or we can stop wasting our time". They folded. But I didn't deeply want the position.
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Dec 13, 2017 13:07
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:You tell them it's negotiable, and ask to hear what they have budgeted for the position. You and the person you are speaking with will dance decreasingly elegantly toward "no you first". Eventually someone folds, or takes their ball and goes home. That's perfect, thank you!
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Dec 13, 2017 17:52
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I just did that very thing. I was doing the salary dance with HR and had a phone interview that went extremely well. The manager made it sound like there was no path to advance which is very important to me at 27. HR jumped in and said they were going to double in size but talk is cheap so I was not desperate to work there. Anyhow, they wanted to bring me in for an in-person interview but HR said they would not unless I named a number. It got to point where we both refused so they took their ball home. If they're bluffing, great, I'll go in and see what they offer me. If not, I don't want to work there.
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Dec 13, 2017 22:51
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fwiw it seems to be a growing trend in HR the past couple years to play hardball on making the applicant name a number first, and they're getting more willing to let an applicant walk if they refuse. I think going forward it's going to increasingly be the case that if you're not the super clear #1 candidate then HR won't be bluffing on this point and won't fold. Not relevant but what the hell, I'll tell a story: the last serious interview I personally had, for a job I didn't especially want but was kicking the tires on, I knew exactly what the job was worth on the market and went right ahead and asked for that number plus about 20 percent. They actually ended up offering me the job--at almost exactly half of what I'd asked for. I told them no thanks and we clearly have nothing further to discuss. (By that time I'd already pieced together from a few acquaintances on the inside that the company was looking for a very cheap and very temporary stopgap while preparing to eliminate that job. They ended up eliminating it ahead of schedule, apparently after offering it around at preposterously low salary and getting no takers. It is not a position a healthy company can live without. But then, this is not a healthy company.)
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Dec 14, 2017 03:45
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Eric the Mauve posted:fwiw it seems to be a growing trend in HR the past couple years to play hardball on making the applicant name a number first, and they're getting more willing to let an applicant walk if they refuse. I think going forward it's going to increasingly be the case that if you're not the super clear #1 candidate then HR won't be bluffing on this point and won't fold.
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Dec 14, 2017 06:05
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Jordan7hm posted:I think this is one where it depends on how much sway the business holds vs HR. HR often doesn't care if the business needs to make do with their current staffing levels for another 6 months to find a cheaper candidate who fits the job. HR isn't the group that's understaffed in this situation. Definitely true. The trend in forcing the applicant to name their number or let them walk is an HR trend all the way. Unfortunately, especially at large companies, HR seems to be gaining more power relative to hiring managers by the day.
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Dec 14, 2017 22:21
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Related to the topic, I spoke to the friend who helped me get this position at $100k. I wanted to know if I'd shot myself in the foot by responding to HR's "What's your just say yes number?" when I was first in negotiations. I - for whatever reason - was caught off guard by this and responded with $105k, and I wanted to know if I'd left $10k or more on the table. HR wanted to know what I made at my last job and I told them I couldn't talk about that, so they didn't have an anchor otherwise. He told me that the position has a low point of $85k and probably a high point for hiring of $105k. He said the best I could have done was ask high and get them to offer $105k on the dot, and by not giving a prior salary number I definitely got the higher value. Furthermore, he said I was far more likely to get the low amount if I hadn't given a target number, which was interesting. In the end, I could have gotten another $5k if I'd been a little bit greedier, but by having a known value and acting on it I definitely got a higher number than if I had let them offer. This seems to line up with the idea that HR is more likely to walk away from the table if you play too much hardball. Moral of the story is still to do your research, know your value, and ask 10-20% above it. I don't feel terrible about missing out on that $5k because $100k was my target and I was expecting to get a job between $88-95k, but when I'm in this position again moving forward I'll be more prepared with my end of things. Hoodwinker fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Dec 14, 2017 |
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Dec 14, 2017 23:00
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To follow up on my story, by declining to answer "what is your desired salary" at the beginning of interviews, I was offered $5k more than what I would've said my desired salary was. Thanks thread!
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Dec 21, 2017 23:22
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Due to changes in the law, prospective employees in California can no longer be asked about prior salary as of January 1, 2018. Another potential deflection tool for those getting hounded on it during interviews/negotiations. Some other jurisdictions have similar laws in place (Oregon, Massachusetts, Delaware, NYC). https://www.employmentmattersblog.com/2017/10/california-bans-salary-history-inquiries/
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Dec 23, 2017 01:24
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Perhaps more importantly, don't employers have to disclose the budgeted amount for the position?
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Dec 23, 2017 10:24
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HR guy called me in for my yearly review today. During it, he handed me a paper telling me what my salary would be in 2018. And i loving didn’t negotiate. I just froze. I feel like because it was written down on paper, it was set in stone. I think i’m going to schedule another meeting with him and try to negotiate, but this time bring some statistics
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Dec 27, 2017 00:21
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Working through the last 5 pages or so, but I have my annual review coming up Thursday or Friday and wanted to run some things by ya'll. I just turned 28 and am currently an Implementation Specialist with a "start-up" software company. My position is probably best described as a sales engineer. Sales sells the client, and I have a 30-60 day implementation cycle where I customize the system, design workflows, do a little process optimization and than fly out and either train the trainers, or train the staff. I work with Director level people to ensure all their processes can be accomplished easily in the system and don't speak to anyone lower than a director level until training happens. I was hired at 55K per year, was bumped to 65K Salary + 10K bonus/incentives for a total of 75K at my first annual review. This company has an industry specific Enterprise Content Management System and has been in business for roughly 5 years. The company was owned by 3 people, a coder who wrote it, someone who had the idea and industry connections to sell it, and a business guy who funded it all and sold it. The business guy bought out the other two about two years ago maybe a month after I was hired. Since than the core company has acquired a marketing team, new sales people, a different software company for secure communications that we rolled into our own software and an industry specific magazine. The company is also developing a revenue management module as well as a CRM module.* The company has a timeline to sell (privately, and I have been told will NOT IPO ever) within the next 4-5 years.I know this because the COO personally likes me and the CTO and I play sports together so have a very friendly, casual bro-ish relationship. We get drinks and dinner together and play sports once a week. I am also his go-to when he has questions regarding my department instead of my boss. This was also recently internally announced and is no longer hush-hush. I have been told by my Director and the COO (both of whom my sit down annual is with) that I am inline to be promoted to their equivalent of a major account manager at this meeting. They have a cute bullshit techy name for it, but thats basically what it is. I will own a portfolio of 75-100 clients and be responsible for ensuring their happiness, care and maintenance of their system, bringing their features and requests to development,deploying new features and modules as well as managing a team of 3-5 people comprising of a senior sales engineer, a junior sales engineer and 2-3 support specialists (Tier 1/2 tech support basically) who will be responsible for on-boarding and setting up new clients and assisting me in caring for existing ones. This is all well and good, but I've done major account management before. My first job for 3 years outside of college was up and down the street copier sales which I was good at. I than submitted and won a contract for one of the top 5 largest school districts in the united states consisting of 36,000 staff, 400,000 students and 367 unique locations across the county. Because I wrote it and won it with no support and no one in the company backing me I asked for and they gave me the project management lead on it. I was responsible for everything from finding warehouse space, putting together delivery schedules, installation schedules for teams of 2-10 people, coordinating with each site and taking care of their needs, presenting service and status reports to the board of directors, helping "right-size" each site and ensuring they had the correct equipment, getting everyone trained (internally and for the client), preparing training materials and talk tracks, and idk a bunch of other poo poo. I feel like because of my previous experience I am justified in asking to be at the top of the range for this position they are giving me. The position is new. Two people got raises with it and one didn't. Semi-related to this, at our annual company event the CEO said they would consider MBA's and Coding Bootcamps on a case by case basis. I want an MBA, I don't know in what specifically, but I know it would open doors and it's gunna be free. I would sign a 3 or 4 year contract with the company and not be allowed to get less than a B. 1-2 years for the degree and I would owe them 1-2 years after. This would line up with them selling the company nicely. I would like to get an MBA focused on managing people who touch computers, or a joint MBA + MS in something like Technology Management. I think with the way the economy is going and automation, it would be very beneficial to pivot into a more computer/technology focused role. I've already pivoted out of sales which was stressful and not something I want to do for my life. I want something more stable. I am wondering what the best way to approach this annual review where they give out raises and promotions, as well as how to handle the MBA situation. This is the first real job I've had so I'm just a little unsure about things and would welcome any feed back or thoughts at all. The last position I had I made alot of money but it was all on commission and I never discussed salary because I just sold a bunch of poo poo. *All of these new acquisitions are held by a holding company, but exist as independent business entities. We have been offered stocks in the holding company, not its individual components (none of which are profitable now but the core software company) but the company is being very vague about the worth of the stocks. They are doing some odd poo poo and not calling them stock and so its impossible to fix any value to them. There is no stake price, or clearing price or anything and they 100% vest only upon a financing event over like 75 Million or something like that. They are going to give us an agreement whose terms are not negotiable due to idk all this bullshit. What do I say about all this? they also wont disclose the valuation of the company or any internal finances but i will still ask if you could suggest some good questions
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Dec 27, 2017 02:05
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Grump posted:HR guy called me in for my yearly review today. During it, he handed me a paper telling me what my salary would be in 2018. And i loving didn’t negotiate. I just froze. I feel like because it was written down on paper, it was set in stone. Tried negotiating today and got nothing. I'm actually pretty surprised how poorly it went. I asked for 10k more and got a long-winded explanation ending with a flat out, "no." Then I asked for 5k more and got a long-winded explanation ending with a flat out, "no." That's definitely the last straw. I'm outta here. teen phone cutie fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Dec 27, 2017 |
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Dec 27, 2017 21:15
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Grump posted:Tried negotiating today and got nothing. I'm actually pretty suprised how poorly it went. Sounds like they’re happy to keep you on the books for your current pay and either don’t think you’ll leave or don’t care if you do. Good luck with the job search! Just look back at these 2 attempts as practise for negotiation i the future!
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Dec 27, 2017 21:30
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For what it's worth, in my experience negotiating big raises at my current employer the yearly review is not the best time to do so. Since it's a company-wide salary review and adjustment, there's a lot more rules and budgets in place that make it effectively just 3% COLAs for everyone, plus or minus a percent or two. It's annoying, because you think the annual salary review would be the time to push for big raises, but the way it is structured is that there is limited adjustment money per group, and one person getting more means someone else gets less. Real stupid but that's business, and is certainly not necessarily the case everywhere. Instead, both my big raises/promotions were "mid cycle" when it was more of a case-by-case basis sort of thing. I certainly made clear in my annual review that I wanted to discuss career progression and compensation, but we made a plan to do so and it was handled separately. But if you were getting flat-out "no" without the possibility of a separate review & discussion, then good luck on your new job search. 
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Dec 27, 2017 22:20
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yeah the yearly review happens on an employee's anniversary, so it's really not the whole company at once. I just happened to start mid-December. but yeah - I see your point. I don't think there's really explanation that's going to keep me working here.
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Dec 27, 2017 23:37
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Grump posted:yeah the yearly review happens on an employee's anniversary, so it's really not the whole company at once. I just happened to start mid-December. The reality is that an HR person you're talking to probably doesn't have authority to change the numbers at all, unless it's like the VP. You would need your boss (or more realistic, group director) to go to bat for you to free up moneys. When I've gotten bigger raises in the annual cycle, it's been because I ignored the HR conversion and talked to my second/third line managers about it, because they were the ones who could escalate to the right people to have a real conversation. Honestly, it's really weird to me that your annual review is being done by someone in HR instead of your first or second line manager. What's the story with that?
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Dec 28, 2017 01:34
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It's a really small company and the CEO brought in his buddies that run their own financial business to work as temps and handle everything internal and financial related. Honestly, the roles of these guys are kinda blurred, but I'm not totally sure my CEO would be the person to go to about my salary.
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Dec 28, 2017 01:43
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Grump posted:It's a really small company and the CEO brought in his buddies that run their own financial business to work as temps and handle everything internal and financial related. I'm at a small company (~40 employees) and the CEO would be the best person to talk to about comp, if you didn't like what your group's manager had given you. But we also specifically budget, when budgeting for raises, to allow room to negotiate up salary as well so you might not even need to (e.g. if we say that there is a pool of $200k for the 40 employees, we'll allocate ~$150k of that in the initial discussions and then let people come back and negotiate. The CEO still approves all salaries himself, including offers. Your CEO almost certainly is the one who is approving your final comp as well if you're in a tiny company. If he's approving it, he's the best one to talk to about it. At my prior job, which was pretty small when I started (~60, grew to ~200 by the time I left), there wasn't much room to negotiate by the time you were sitting down with the manager giving you the review, unless it escalated to the head of HR. You had to start negotiating 6-8 months before the reviews so they could allocate budget/etc.
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Dec 28, 2017 01:58
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LochNessMonster posted:Sounds like they’re happy to keep you on the books for your current pay and either don’t think you’ll leave or don’t care if you do. This is how most companies behave--especially the ones where the accountants or the HR people have significant control of staffing. That's why the most critical salary negotiation by far is the initial one, when you interview for a job. Most significant raises in 2017 happen when you jump to a new job with a different company, or a different department within a large company. Your chances of getting what you want pay-wise are better at the initial salary negotiation before taking the job, because it's painful to let a good candidate walk away. Creates more hassle for everyone, including HR. Whereas with already existing employees it's exactly like LochNessMonster says: giving you a nonstandard raise is a hassle for them, and they assume you're not really going to leave if they refuse (they assume this because the overwhelming majority of employees who are refused raises don't). And if you tell them "I want $X or I'm gone" they will usually push you out the door ASAP because that is not the kind of uppity attitude they want to risk you infecting other employees with. If they won't pay you what you're worth, the only good play is to go find someone else who will.
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Dec 28, 2017 02:40
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I love everything about my current job. I just need more money because I want to buy a condo and everything in this area is stupid expensive. I work for a well-endowed museum and I have a trendy tech title - Digital Asset Manager - but no tech background nor programming skills. I am in the final stages of implementing a database, at which point I will have super desirable experience that can translate to both the corporate and non-profit sectors. I admit I don't have a good BATNA here. My boss is fantastic and I have a lot of autonomy at my work, both of which I would be hard-pressed to find elsewhere. My work isn't revenue-generating but I support most departments and have worked hard to become indispensable and widely beloved for doing a job no one else wants to. Performance review season is in March. My database will be operational and hopefully a big success by then. How do I start now to sow the seeds for a substantial raise? I make mid-50s and would like an extra $15k.
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Jan 8, 2018 00:18
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Vox Nihili posted:Due to changes in the law, prospective employees in California can no longer be asked about prior salary as of January 1, 2018. Another potential deflection tool for those getting hounded on it during interviews/negotiations. Some other jurisdictions have similar laws in place (Oregon, Massachusetts, Delaware, NYC). Wow that is really interesting. Dumb question: My next hire will be in Texas, but I and my office are in CA. Texas rules apply, since the person will work in Texas, right? Once again, gently caress California and boy am I glad I live here. A job or two ago they actually wanted to see my W2 for the last job because I was asking for, and eventually got, more than they wanted to pay me. Ultimate Mango fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Jan 8, 2018 |
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Jan 8, 2018 06:01
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Ultimate Mango posted:Wow that is really interesting. Dumb question: My next hire will be in Texas, but I and my office are in CA. Texas rules apply, since the person will work in Texas, right? If the job is located in Texas then the Texas rules should apply.
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Jan 8, 2018 10:08
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Ultimate Mango posted:Wow that is really interesting. Dumb question: My next hire will be in Texas, but I and my office are in CA. Texas rules apply, since the person will work in Texas, right? why are you saying gently caress California for a rule change that would have benefited you
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Jan 8, 2018 18:23
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