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I'm the person who needs to make up poo poo about HTS to make them look bad.Thug Lessons posted:It looks like they just slashed his throat. Which is an insanely normal thing to do to prisoners of war, basically anyone would do it. https://twitter.com/worldonalert/status/920610325690572800 It's shockingly tame behavior for the SCW to be honest where's the pic of the saa dude beheading a rebel, who is then beheaded by another rebel who is then beheaded by a member of the saa
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Dec 27, 2017 06:28
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Thug Lessons posted:It looks like they just slashed his throat. Which is an insanely normal thing to do to prisoners of war, basically anyone would do it. So less horrific than if the SEALs had been there instead?
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Dec 27, 2017 06:31
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Volkerball posted:Oh yeah I forgot to post this. It's hilarious. Good thing the Saudis have all that experience fighting wars and the Iranians have none. :-()
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Dec 27, 2017 07:13
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Thug Lessons posted:It looks like they just slashed his throat. Which is an insanely normal thing to do to prisoners of war, basically anyone would do it. If it looks like they slashed his throat what the gently caress are we talking about beheading for? Because you're a disingenous shithead who isn't capable of forming arguments that aren't riddled with blatantly transparent lies. It's kind of pathetic how when you don't have all the facts, which is always, your default reaction is to side with the oppressor over the oppressed. Sure, in this instance, it's al-Qaeda who gets to wear it, but with all the baseless poo poo morons like you throw against the wall, it's often civilian victims who get the blame. Curiously, I've never ever seen you overstate crimes the regime commits, yet you constantly do it when anyone in the opposition comes up. You hold Assad in higher regard than you do the first responders who are out trying to save people in the bakeries the regimes bomb. You just naturally lean fascist, and are absolutely shameless about it.
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Dec 27, 2017 14:55
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Trabisnikof posted:So less horrific than if the SEALs had been there instead? The pilot wasn't an 8 year old girl so he'd have been safe from SEALs.
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Dec 27, 2017 15:07
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Thug Lessons posted:I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm responding to the people who are actually posting in defense of this because actually bombs are just as bad as wantonly murdering a POW. Oh, you're right. Bombing is, after all, far worse. In this case though, I would have rather seen him tried and executed, but I can understand why he ended up dead this way. Sometimes in war, emotions are running high. Still, execution by firing squad would have wasted ammo on him, so he probably would have ended up the same way even after a trial.
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Dec 27, 2017 15:13
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Squalid posted:I mean yeah it pretty much is in this conflict. This is not a defense of anything btw, I have no interest in the insane moral olympics some people here like to compete in. I prefer not to take the side of any of the thugs in this conflict. Yeah, that's probably a better way to look at it. I am sick to death of people excusing blatant war crimes by pointing to the other side and saying they're worse. What strikes me, though, about these jihadis is how brazen and openly repulsive they are. They make no attempt to hide their crimes, but indeed celebrate them, as that clip shows. Bashar is certainly no better but he at least pretends otherwise.
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Dec 27, 2017 15:34
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Yeah executing him is technically a war crime but this is an extremely brutal civil war and as a pilot it is very likely that he personally bombed a number of civilian targets on purpose. Plus he's ok with working for a murderous fascist dictator that gassed his own people. In that context I couldn't give less of a poo poo if he died in combat or was executed after capture.
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Dec 27, 2017 15:35
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Volkerball posted:If it looks like they slashed his throat what the gently caress are we talking about beheading for? Because you're a disingenous shithead who isn't capable of forming arguments that aren't riddled with blatantly transparent lies. It's kind of pathetic how when you don't have all the facts, which is always, your default reaction is to side with the oppressor over the oppressed. Sure, in this instance, it's al-Qaeda who gets to wear it, but with all the baseless poo poo morons like you throw against the wall, it's often civilian victims who get the blame. Curiously, I've never ever seen you overstate crimes the regime commits, yet you constantly do it when anyone in the opposition comes up. You hold Assad in higher regard than you do the first responders who are out trying to save people in the bakeries the regimes bomb. You just naturally lean fascist, and are absolutely shameless about it. Who exactly do you think you're impressing with this moralistic hectoring? I'm sure there's a few dullards who are stupid enough to believe I "side with the oppressor over the oppressed", but there can't be that many. We're talking about beheading because somebody claimed it was beheading. Since I didn't want to watch a beheading video, I posted before watching it, but then went back and saw they had "merely" cut his throat. In grand scheme of war crimes, executing a POW is considerably worse than cutting his head off after the execution, (although FWIW there's been numerous examples of these glorious mujahideen doing exactly that over the course of the war). It's certainly true that I give the rebels more poo poo than I give the regime, but the reasons have nothing to do with hating civilians, loving fascism, worshiping death or whatever else you're on about. It's because the crimes of the rebels are constantly minimized and ignored by the media, and because they're part of a international jihad that threatens the entire world. The regime's despicable but at least we don't have to worry about Ba'athism sweeping across the Middle East the way we do with the jihad.
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Dec 27, 2017 15:41
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El Disco posted:Yeah executing him is technically a war crime but this is an extremely brutal civil war and as a pilot it is very likely that he personally bombed a number of civilian targets on purpose. Plus he's ok with working for a murderous fascist dictator that gassed his own people. In that context I couldn't give less of a poo poo if he died in combat or was executed after capture. Personally I'm opposed to war crimes period, and don't have any time for these self-serving rationalizations where he's probably a bad guy anyway so who cares. But even if were I would be disturbed that these would-be liberators are willing, even gleeful, to commit war crimes right out in the open. I wouldn't want anyone like that running a country. Their victory could only lead to more death and suffering.
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Dec 27, 2017 15:45
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To put this back on news instead of lies and deranged conspiracy theories, there's been an interesting turn in Iraq that's got all the political analysts there buzzing. Maliki, who has traditionally spoken about the KRG and their media outlets as Zionists and terrorists, is suddenly buddying up with Barzani. The two are reportedly engaged in under the table talks. It's looking like it's part of an effort to scoop up some Kurdish votes to try and oust Abadi. He just did a big interview with Rudaw, which is really weird. Not sure how many people will be biting given that Barzani's reputation is in the shitter, but it is what it is.
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Dec 27, 2017 15:59
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Speaking of Iraq, ISIS seems to be transitioning back into an insurgency there, which isn't a great surprise but is still sad. I'm sure the ongoing tension between the Kurds and the government isn't helping anything, but some level of continuing jihadist threat was probably inevitable.
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Dec 27, 2017 16:11
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Thug Lessons posted:Personally I'm opposed to war crimes period, and don't have any time for these self-serving rationalizations where he's probably a bad guy anyway so who cares. But even if were I would be disturbed that these would-be liberators are willing, even gleeful, to commit war crimes right out in the open. I wouldn't want anyone like that running a country. Their victory could only lead to more death and suffering. Some war crimes are worse than others. Intentionally bombing a hospital and killing 50 people is worse than executing a captured soldier who was probably forcibly conscripted. And executing that conscript is worse than executing a pilot that has probably bombed a few hospitals himself. It's really low on my hierarchy of giving a poo poo. Also would it really make you feel better if HTS had given a super obvious lie? Like if they had said, "oh we just found him like that, he must have slit his own throat to avoid capture  " would it make a difference?Sinteres posted:Speaking of Iraq, ISIS seems to be transitioning back into an insurgency there, which isn't a great surprise but is still sad. I'm sure the ongoing tension between the Kurds and the government isn't helping anything, but some level of continuing jihadist threat was probably inevitable. I imagine they're heading back to the pre-ISIS situation where the shiite dominated government shits on the sunnis, which makes them more receptive to the next insurgent group that shows up. Godlessdonut fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Dec 27, 2017 |
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Dec 27, 2017 16:46
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El Disco posted:Some war crimes are worse than others. Intentionally bombing a hospital and killing 50 people is worse than executing a captured soldier who was probably forcibly conscripted. And executing that conscript is worse than executing a pilot that has probably bombed a few hospitals himself. It's really low on my hierarchy of giving a poo poo. When you have to start excusing war crimes by telling yourself stories about how the victims of those crimes personally and deliberately bombed multiple hospitals it's probably time to sit down and re-evaluate your assumptions. I think if you can be honest with yourself you'll realize you'd never want to live in a country run by the people in that video, that if they ever managed to gain power it'd be a catastrophe, and that acknowledging that reality doesn't require going a full 180 and supporting the regime.
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Dec 27, 2017 16:53
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Thug Lessons posted:When you have to start excusing war crimes by telling yourself stories about how the victims of those crimes personally and deliberately bombed multiple hospitals it's probably time to sit down and re-evaluate your assumptions. I think if you can be honest with yourself you'll realize you'd never want to live in a country run by the people in that video, that if they ever managed to gain power it'd be a catastrophe, and that acknowledging that reality doesn't require going a full 180 and supporting the regime. I don't think anyone actually wants HTS to run the country, people who wanted an intervention to assist the rebels in overthrowing the regime were just more optimistic about the ability of other forces in the rebellion to win out. I've always been far more pessimistic about the rebellion, and thought the "best case" scenario in the case of a rebel victory was for HTS to be the real power in the country behind a puppet government (basically like Hezbollah in Lebanon, but probably even moreso), or for the US to be bogged down fighting them in a repeat of the occupation of Iraq for years. That said, I still think the context of the war crimes of Assad's air force obviously has something to do with how his pilots can be expected to be treated if they're shot down. Even just limiting the discussion to jihadist crimes, killing a downed combatant seems less bad than their crimes against civilians, such as opening fire on civilian protesters (which, ironically, was the same thing Assad did which sparked the violent rebellion in the first place). Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Dec 27, 2017 |
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Dec 27, 2017 17:06
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Thug Lessons posted:When you have to start excusing war crimes by telling yourself stories about how the victims of those crimes personally and deliberately bombed multiple hospitals it's probably time to sit down and re-evaluate your assumptions. I think if you can be honest with yourself you'll realize you'd never want to live in a country run by the people in that video, that if they ever managed to gain power it'd be a catastrophe, and that acknowledging that reality doesn't require going a full 180 and supporting the regime. I love how you hold every Syrian who opposes Assad responsible for each and every atrocity commited by jihadists, despite the many protests and fights there have been against said jihadists, and the many activists who have sacrificed more than you ever will for the fight against extremism. Especially since you sneer at the idea of holding a tyrant like Assad to the same standard when the regime is completely under his control. Why don't you just come out and say that you think the savage Muslim hordes need a strong secular ruler who mercilessly represses them to keep them in line. Most of your bedfellows don't shy away from it.
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Dec 27, 2017 17:20
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Thug Lessons posted:When you have to start excusing war crimes by telling yourself stories about how the victims of those crimes personally and deliberately bombed multiple hospitals it's probably time to sit down and re-evaluate your assumptions. These assumptions are certainly true, given how the regime has used airpower.
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Dec 27, 2017 17:23
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Sinteres posted:I don't think anyone actually wants HTS to run the country, people who wanted an intervention to assist the rebels in overthrowing the regime were just more optimistic about the ability of other forces in the rebellion to win out. I've always been far more pessimistic about the rebellion, and thought the "best case" scenario in the case of a rebel victory was for HTS to be the real power in the country behind a puppet government (basically like Hezbollah in Lebanon, but probably even moreso), or for the US to be bogged down fighting them in a repeat of the occupation of Iraq for years. That said, I still think the context of the war crimes of Assad's air force obviously has something to do with how his pilots can be expected to be treated if they're shot down. Even just limiting the discussion to jihadist crimes, killing a downed combatant seems less bad than their crimes against civilians, such as opening fire on civilian protesters (which, ironically, was the same thing Assad did which sparked the violent rebellion in the first place). No, I don't think you can brush this aside as a minor violation. There's a whole Geneva Convention devoted to the treatment of prisoners of war, and its adoption actually precedes the one on the treatment of civilians. This act is an egregious and open violation of that convention and shows total disrespect for human rights. And if you're willing to entertain notions like "well what did he expect?" you might as well just throw out the Geneva Conventions entirely because obviously in most wars one or more sides are going to be "baddies".
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Dec 27, 2017 17:30
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Volkerball posted:I love how you hold every Syrian who opposes Assad responsible for each and every atrocity commited by jihadists, despite the many protests and fights there have been against said jihadists, and the many activists who have sacrificed more than you ever will for the fight against extremism. Especially since you sneer at the idea of holding a tyrant like Assad to the same standard when the regime is completely under his control. Why don't you just come out and say that you think the savage Muslim hordes need a strong secular ruler who mercilessly represses them to keep them in line. Most of your bedfellows don't shy away from it. Obviously there's plenty of liberals who oppose Bashar's regime but they aren't the ones fighting. Idlib is dominated by HTS and Ahrar al-Sham, both of which are raging jihadists.
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Dec 27, 2017 17:32
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OctaMurk posted:These assumptions are certainly true, given how the regime has used airpower. No it's not? You're making a huge leap from "Assad's air campaign killed civilians and destroyed hospitals" to "each and every SyAAF pilot has personally and deliberately bombed multiple hospitals". It's not that far from believing every USAF pilot has personally and deliberately bombed multiple Afghan weddings.
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Dec 27, 2017 17:34
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Thug Lessons posted:When you have to start excusing war crimes by telling yourself stories about how the victims of those crimes personally and deliberately bombed multiple hospitals it's probably time to sit down and re-evaluate your assumptions. Boy I guess it's a good thing I didn't excuse it!
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Dec 27, 2017 17:41
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El Disco posted:Boy I guess it's a good thing I didn't excuse it! You were at the very least minimizing it and basically saying it doesn't matter. You don't give a poo poo, and the guy deserved it anyway. That's a kind of excuse-making.
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Dec 27, 2017 17:44
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Thug Lessons posted:Obviously there's plenty of liberals who oppose Bashar's regime but they aren't the ones fighting. Idlib is dominated by HTS and Ahrar al-Sham, both of which are raging jihadists. I wonder why? Maybe because jihadists had backers who supported their ideals, while the people who support liberal ideals suddenly decided Islamophobia was woke and spent their time making memes laughing at suffering civilians instead of showing solidarity with people protesting against corruption, tyranny, and inequality. Lets not pretend this was ever about the composition of the rebel forces. It was about the US. You bought into conspiracy theories about regime change and decided you had to prevent it, and so you went on to slander everyone you possibly could to try and fight your imaginary enemy, regardless of the facts. There's nothing whatsoever anyone could have done to convince you to support their cause. You always considered them an enemy, and found an ally in the root cause of the entire conflict. You can sit here and say "I don't support Assad," but the fact is that you are ideologically opposed to any alternative to him. That is a de facto pro-Assad position, and it's why talking points crafted by Russia and the regime that slander these activists as jihadists litter your post history. Because it fits in with your agenda. With that in mind, this bullshit now rings real loving hollow.
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Dec 27, 2017 17:47
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Thug Lessons posted:No it's not? You're making a huge leap from "Assad's air campaign killed civilians and destroyed hospitals" to "each and every SyAAF pilot has personally and deliberately bombed multiple hospitals". It's not that far from believing every USAF pilot has personally and deliberately bombed multiple Afghan weddings. Lmao. The SyAAF has been deliberately targeting civilians for the better part of half a decade as part of a strategy to render rebel areas uninhabitable. The idea that this man did not bomb civilian targets intentionally during his service is frankly ridiculous.
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Dec 27, 2017 17:48
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there is no ethical flying under assad
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Dec 27, 2017 17:55
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Volkerball posted:I wonder why? Maybe because jihadists had backers who supported their ideals, while the people who support liberal ideals suddenly decided Islamophobia was woke and spent their time making memes laughing at suffering civilians instead of showing solidarity with people protesting against corruption, tyranny, and inequality. Lets not pretend this was ever about the composition of the rebel forces. It was about the US. You bought into conspiracy theories about regime change and decided you had to prevent it, and so you went on to slander everyone you possibly could to try and fight your imaginary enemy, regardless of the facts. There's nothing whatsoever anyone could have done to convince you to support their cause. You always considered them an enemy, and found an ally in the root cause of the entire conflict. You can sit here and say "I don't support Assad," but the fact is that you are ideologically opposed to any alternative to him. That is a de facto pro-Assad position, and it's why talking points crafted by Russia and the regime that slander these activists as jihadists litter your post history. Because it fits in with your agenda. With that in mind, this bullshit now rings real loving hollow. Syrian regime change is anything but a conspiracy theory. Leaders, both in the region and the West, have openly been saying "Assad must go" since the war began. Erdogan literally said it today. There is a regime change-based conspiracy theory advanced by people like Stephan Gowans, basically that the entire civil war cooked up in the Pentagon's basement, but I've never advanced that and actually spent tireless hours arguing with people credulous enough to believe it. But what I'm talking about is the open desire of the Syrian government's foreign enemies to topple it, a desire that was advanced by, as you say, funding jihadists. Anyway what you're basically saying here is "You're either with us or you're with the regime, you can't be a fence-sitter". Well, I disagree, because I don't think you have to pick sides in every brutal civil war, but okay. If you can't be a fence-sitter I'm pro-regime. But only because you've backed me into a corner and given me no other option, not because I'm an Islamophobe who loves fascism and hates Syrians and all the other nonsense you keep spewing.
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Dec 27, 2017 18:00
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Thug Lessons posted:You were at the very least minimizing it and basically saying it doesn't matter. You don't give a poo poo, and the guy deserved it anyway. That's a kind of excuse-making. I've acknowledged that it's a war crime, you're just mad that I'm not sufficiently outraged. Thug Lessons posted:It's not that far from believing every USAF pilot has personally and deliberately bombed multiple Afghan weddings. If there had been a systematic campaign of bombing every wedding in Afghanistan, then this wouldn't be a terrible assumption.
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Dec 27, 2017 18:04
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OctaMurk posted:Lmao. If you have some evidence of targeting civilians on his part let me know. But just saying "oh the SyAAF is bad so he's definitely a criminal" isn't going to cut it.
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Dec 27, 2017 18:08
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Thug Lessons posted:If you have some evidence of targeting civilians on his part let me know. But just saying "oh the SyAAF is bad so he's definitely a criminal" isn't going to cut it. I didn't know fence-sitting included such blatant double standards.
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Dec 27, 2017 18:17
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Thug Lessons posted:If you have some evidence of targeting civilians on his part let me know. But just saying "oh the Waffen-SS is bad so he's definitely a criminal" isn't going to cut it. The guy isn't a conscript. He volunteered to be a pilot of an attack jet in an air force whose military strategy is to bomb the gently caress out of civilian areas. He's a criminal. If the guy was a foreign fighter in ISIS, you wouldn't be debating that he's a criminal.
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Dec 27, 2017 18:31
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Volkerball posted:I wonder why? Maybe because jihadists had backers who supported their ideals, while the people who support liberal ideals suddenly decided Islamophobia was woke and spent their time making memes laughing at suffering civilians instead of showing solidarity with people protesting against corruption, tyranny, and inequality. Lets not pretend this was ever about the composition of the rebel forces. It was about the US. You bought into conspiracy theories about regime change and decided you had to prevent it, and so you went on to slander everyone you possibly could to try and fight your imaginary enemy, regardless of the facts. There's nothing whatsoever anyone could have done to convince you to support their cause. You always considered them an enemy, and found an ally in the root cause of the entire conflict. You can sit here and say "I don't support Assad," but the fact is that you are ideologically opposed to any alternative to him. That is a de facto pro-Assad position, and it's why talking points crafted by Russia and the regime that slander these activists as jihadists litter your post history. Because it fits in with your agenda. With that in mind, this bullshit now rings real loving hollow. There was one truly revolutionary party in Syria, and it had nothing to do with the SNC.
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Dec 27, 2017 18:49
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OctaMurk posted:The guy isn't a conscript. He volunteered to be a pilot of an attack jet in an air force whose military strategy is to bomb the gently caress out of civilian areas. He's a criminal. If the guy was a foreign fighter in ISIS, you wouldn't be debating that he's a criminal. We wouldn't be debating it because ISIS members are criminals by definition, since they belong to an internationally proscribed terrorist organization. But I definitely wouldn't feel comfortable calling an ISIS member a war criminal without evidence, let alone summarily executing him. And if someone was caught doing so my response would be the same: to say that this is an extremely serious war crime, there's no excuse, and the perpetrators must be punished.
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Dec 27, 2017 18:51
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No one mentioned this yet, but we don't actually know how the pilot died. He could have been wounded or killed during capture or those guys in the video could have gotten his corpse from someone else. It was suggested he was shot in the head execution style, which is plausible, but we don't know the exact circumstances. It's not clear if his throat was cut before or after he died, for instance.
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Dec 27, 2017 19:12
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El Disco posted:
It would have made a difference if they had bothered to convene a military tribunal, found him guilty and then slit his throat. Still harsh, but I would have been OK with that.
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Dec 27, 2017 19:13
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Duckbox posted:No one mentioned this yet, but we don't actually know how the pilot died. He could have been wounded or killed during capture or those guys in the video could have gotten his corpse from someone else. It was suggested he was shot in the head execution style, which is plausible, but we don't know the exact circumstances. It's not clear if his throat was cut before or after he died, for instance. I mean, they're claiming in the video that they killed him, and he wouldn't have bled like that from a postmortem cut. I looks like they cut his neck and then shot him in the head to finish him off. I could be wrong though.
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Dec 27, 2017 19:21
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:there is no ethical flying under assad The Syrian AirForce - Come fly the unfriendly skies 
CrazyLoon fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Dec 27, 2017 |
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Dec 27, 2017 22:14
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Personally I'm gonna wait for the autopsy results
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Dec 27, 2017 22:26
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Volkerball posted:To put this back on news instead of lies and deranged conspiracy theories, there's been an interesting turn in Iraq that's got all the political analysts there buzzing. Maliki, who has traditionally spoken about the KRG and their media outlets as Zionists and terrorists, is suddenly buddying up with Barzani. The two are reportedly engaged in under the table talks. It's looking like it's part of an effort to scoop up some Kurdish votes to try and oust Abadi. He just did a big interview with Rudaw, which is really weird. Not sure how many people will be biting given that Barzani's reputation is in the shitter, but it is what it is.
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Dec 27, 2017 22:34
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https://twitter.com/ahmed/status/946039433991786497
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Dec 27, 2017 23:08
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War criminals that bomb hospitals should be properly tried and sentenced under the due process of Al-Qaeda's Shariah court system.
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Dec 27, 2017 23:09
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