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I don't get this "it was good because it was contrarian!" thing about Star Wars. Subverting expectations is fine, but do it in service of something better. This movie did away with a bunch of the tropes and elements of Star Wars, in favor of what, exactly? The plot all hinged on a sitcom style miscommunication between Poe and Ellie from Jurassic Park. That entire conflict could have and should have been resolved with a quick conversation. Everything hinging on: Poe: You have no plan! Laura Dern: I don't have to explain myself to you!" Poe: Mutiny! Side quest! ...was lovely, lazy writing. Make up some reason Poe still thinks her plan sucks. Give the audience a reason to see both sides of the argument. This was such a terrible way to create the main conflict of the movie. Also when Luke said "You want Luke Skywalker to face down the First Order with a laser sword?", I rolled my eyes so hard. WE GET IT. You're flipping everything on its head and changing the series. And finally, yes you stupid rear end in a top hat. I want to watch you face down the First Order with a laser sword. disclaimer I don't even really like Star Wars lol
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Dec 27, 2017 22:47
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^That miscommunication thing made me so miffed!!! It was a bad movie and I'm shocked so many folks here liked it. The pacing, editing, writing, story, and most of the acting were poop. Like and subscribe to hear more.
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Dec 27, 2017 22:48
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It was great.
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Dec 27, 2017 22:50
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The next Star Wars should open with Poe getting hanged after a military tribunal finds him guilty of disobeying direct orders multiple times, getting a bunch of people killed, and leading a mutiny. Now THAT would subvert expectations. None of this "I like that mutineer's spunky, can do attitude" bullshit. Edited for spoiler tags. fishing with the fam fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Dec 27, 2017 |
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Dec 27, 2017 22:54
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Man you should really spoiler that poo poo. Replying to Ehud: OpSec is a thing, she didn't have to and should not have explained the plan that 100% depended on secrecy to succeed, to a random recently demoted subordinate. It was 100% on Poe to have faith in the leadership. The part that was unrealistic was his own terrible actions not being severely punished. Or if you like, instead: the Force was guiding Rey to be on that ship, so Poe's plan had to move forward to set that up, so it was all in service of Destiny. I agree with you on the basic point that being contrarian isn't great in and of itself; but the biggest flaw in star wars movies of the last 20 years has been a slavish devotion to certain tropes that absolutely didn't and should never have been the defining characteristics of what makes a Star Wars movie a Star Wars movie. What was good about this film? The development of the characters. The essential theme of Star Wars: the hero's journey, the question of whether an evil person can be redeemed, faith in one's companions vs. betrayal, and the desperate heroism of scrappy freedom fighters facing off against monolithic power. Also some cool battles, some junky old used space technology that barely works, and breaking into places while trying not to get caught and then getting caught. It looked and felt like an OG star wars film while poking people in the eye a little who are maybe a little too focused on the props.
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Dec 27, 2017 23:01
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Leperflesh posted:You mean like Yoda explicitly agreeing that the Jedi order, a thing literally thousands of real-life humans treat as an actual real-life religion, was sufficiently hosed up that it should die and that is OK? Because that rules This was my favorite scene in the movie.
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Dec 27, 2017 23:03
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My favorite scene was the 1994 yo mama joke
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Dec 27, 2017 23:05
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[quote="Leperflesh" post=""479703464"] It looked and felt like an OG star wars film while poking people in the eye a little who are maybe a little too focused on the props. [/quote] Agreed but to Ehuds point there were definitely some pacing and writing issues which is why I think it was decent but not great.
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Dec 27, 2017 23:08
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Relentlessboredomm posted:This was my favorite scene in the movie. The entire theme of this film is "let go of the past." Kylo Ren says kill you are parents, and that's wrong; but yoda says learn from your past mistakes and then move past them, and don't be afraid to abandon the old if it doesn't work any more, and that's good. Rey needs to let go of the pain of her abandonment, whoever her parents were, and that's good; Kylo tries to manipulate her by constantly reminding her of that pain because he is tortured by his own (terribly emo, pathetic, teenage angsty) pain about his own parents, and he wants her to feel the same, but also thinks it's a source of power because The Dark Side. Luke shows up in the end in part to tell Leia that their time is over and it's time to move on, and it's especially poignant given Carrie Fisher died. And it's all very definitely directed at an audience that needs to let go of the past tropes and stop insisting that new Star Wars has to be the same as old Star Wars. It's OK to learn from the mistakes of the past, such as say for example three terrible films made by George Lucas, but still value what was good in them, like say his idea that the trilogies should "rhyme" a little, that was taken to an absurd extreme even in Ep. VII but this one while having some parallels with Empire Strikes Back was much less slavish to copying its flow. And other details, like using the valuable old thing of puppetry while still also using the valuable new thing of CGI where appropriate. It felt like a film made by filmmakers who understood what their job was; not just to make a movie that will make tons of money, and not just to do fan service to the old crowd, nor to try and intentionally make a "children's film" with nothing but goofy slapstick. Be faithful to the past, but also do new things. I felt like it was there but I was not bludgeoned with it. Fantastic. e. And yeah sure, as a film, it had flaws. No question, the pacing was odd in places, there were entire sequences that were unnecessary, the acting was uneven, it was not by any means a flawless movie. But merely being pretty good puts it in the top 3 star wars films.
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Dec 27, 2017 23:11
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list of great movies: Aliens Citizen Kane (I have never seen it but I heard good things!) Mad Max: Fury Road That's my list so far
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Dec 27, 2017 23:11
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it is star wars, ergo bad and up its own rear end
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Dec 27, 2017 23:12
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GonadTheBallbarian posted:it is star wars, ergo bad and up its own rear end my mans with an ergo like he's the architect of the matrix rofl
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Dec 27, 2017 23:14
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it's lazier than typing out "therefore" my dude
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Dec 27, 2017 23:14
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Star Wars stuff: People talking about OPSEC in a movie about space wizards and plucky, loosely organized rebels fighting galactic Nazi’s are incredibly silly. The movie presents Holdo as mysterious and perhaps untrustworthy to the audience AND the characters in the movie. We are meant to view her with skepticism so that it is a SHOCKING TWIST that she actually has a plan and intends to sacrifice herself for the cause. This all hinges on everyone being kept in the dark including the viewers. The movie is absolutely devoted to this quest to flip the script and subvert expectations at every turn, and it goes out of its way to set up those expectations by intentionally having characters behave in very stupid ways. Saying it’s about OPSEC is just some tactical realism bullshit being used as a de facto justification for a narrative choice that requires everyone to be stupid for a while in order to make a point about...something.
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Dec 27, 2017 23:17
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Ehud posted:list of great movies:
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Dec 27, 2017 23:20
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My biggest issue with Star Wars is that it’s gotten too big, it’s this weird sacred cow for a lot of people. They’re weird sci fi movies that used to be fun, why are they treated like these holy texts? I feel like I see a lot of this cultural obsession with old media driven by our collective need for nostalgic reminders of better days. It’s frankly a bit disturbing that the predominant cultural push is towards desperately reliving the past. It doesn’t make me hopeful for the country at large.
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Dec 27, 2017 23:22
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YOLOsubmarine posted:Star Wars stuff: People talking about OPSEC in a movie about space wizards and plucky, loosely organized rebels fighting galactic Nazi’s are incredibly silly. The movie presents Holdo as mysterious and perhaps untrustworthy to the audience AND the characters in the movie. We are meant to view her with skepticism so that it is a SHOCKING TWIST that she actually has a plan and intends to sacrifice herself for the cause. well said friend
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Dec 27, 2017 23:23
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Blind obedience isn't nearly as much of a thing in the military as people seem to think it is. Especially when a commander is briefing their officers on the mission, they explain WHY things need to be done a certain way. And Poe is presented as an officer (captain/commander/whatever), not a generic grunt. Curiously enough, the original Star Wars movies reflect this. Each one has the rebel leadership give a briefing where they explain why the plan is what it is and why certain things need to happen. When people asked questions about the plan to blow up the Death Star/escape Hoth/blow up another Death Star in those scenes the rebel leaders weren't an rear end about it.
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Dec 27, 2017 23:24
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My biggest issue was that it was a lovely movie. It was rapid fire 1-2-3 of line-line-exaggerated joke. Numerous plot elements had no bearing on the story. It broke rules that it itself established. Characters behaved weird just so that the audience would experience mystery/twists. It didn't even feel like a star wars movie, it felt like a generic disney movie. At least once and for all we established that star wars and Jay-Z inhabit the same universe. e: YOLOsubmarine posted:Star Wars stuff: People talking about OPSEC in a movie about space wizards and plucky, loosely organized rebels fighting galactic Nazi’s are incredibly silly. The movie presents Holdo as mysterious and perhaps untrustworthy to the audience AND the characters in the movie. We are meant to view her with skepticism so that it is a SHOCKING TWIST that she actually has a plan and intends to sacrifice herself for the cause. exactly
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Dec 27, 2017 23:26
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If you had to spend 3 years in a really rough prison or 6 months in the front lines of a war which would you pick?
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Dec 27, 2017 23:26
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eh, soft reboots are easy, proven ways to get dollars... that's really all there is to it
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Dec 27, 2017 23:27
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This page is near unreadable!!
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Dec 27, 2017 23:27
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Ehud posted:If you had to spend 3 years in a really rough prison or 6 months in the front lines of a war which would you pick? 6 months in ww2. Grandpa did it when he was 19. I'd still probably die but I'd definitely be raped and/or killed in prison.
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Dec 27, 2017 23:28
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I was genuinely surprised how bad the new star wars was. I started giggling like an idiot and outright laughed at the Leia scene. I got up and left the theater to take a break because I felt like a dick. I saw it with a bunch of friends and the strangers we sat next to were really high, so I thought they'd be laughing as well. I felt awful for ruining the experience for them. Luckily the movie was poo poo and by the end they were shocked and giggling too.
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Dec 27, 2017 23:29
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YOLOsubmarine posted:Star Wars stuff: People talking about OPSEC in a movie about space wizards and plucky, loosely organized rebels fighting galactic Nazi’s are incredibly silly. The movie presents Holdo as mysterious and perhaps untrustworthy to the audience AND the characters in the movie. We are meant to view her with skepticism so that it is a SHOCKING TWIST that she actually has a plan and intends to sacrifice herself for the cause. I guess I agree to some extent. I mean this is a rebellion that has hosed up and gotten owned several times due to the bad guys knowing what they're up to; from the opening sequence of the first movie where leia has failed to escape with the death star plans, to them letting leia escape with han and luke on the falcon so they'll lead them via tracking device to the rebel base, and that's just in the first movie; and again in Jedi when the emperor traps the rebels into attacking his fully operational death star with false intelligence leaks. So yeah blah blah space wizards, it's well established in this film franchise that the rebels and the empire are in a war of information security as well as actual space battles. And remember, Luke's terrible plan to rescue the princess got obi wan killed, and led the empire to the rebellion, getting tons of rebels killed. And the plan at Endor was also a total fuckup only saved by virtue of cannibal natives randomly encountering a droid that looks like a god? But yes, it would have been pretty easy to have Holdo just loving say "look we have a plan but I'm not telling you about it because you're a fuckup and it's a secret" and then still not let the audience know what her (actually as it turns out pretty flawed) plan is. But she also isn't imagining the extent to which this flyboy is capable of screwing the plan up. The only part I really don't like is him not facing the level of anger and punishment that he is due for getting like 90% of the remaining rebels killed. I guess we're supposed to shrug and think he's lovable for his pluck and determination just like Han was, but it doesn't work. It's definitely a flaw in the movie, but to me it's not a fatal flaw.
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Dec 27, 2017 23:30
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JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:6 months in ww2. Grandpa did it when he was 19. I'd still probably die but I'd definitely be raped and/or killed in prison. That's what I think too. Prison has rape and so many arbitrary social constructs. Curious if anyone here would pick prison.
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Dec 27, 2017 23:32
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GonadTheBallbarian posted:eh, soft reboots are easy, proven ways to get dollars... that's really all there is to it Perhaps, but I think in an era in which a moron became president on the backs of turning back the clock it’s worth questioning why we want to relive everything so badly and why these nolstagia vehicles are such easy money.
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Dec 27, 2017 23:32
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I have never once in my life considered any of the Star Wars movies as "good". Lol if you do
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Dec 27, 2017 23:35
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It's really just that baby boomers have the money and people my age (I guess I'm Gen X) have money now too, and we're happy to spend it on nostalgia. That's no different than any generation past. There's a reason this country spent like 30+ years being obsessed with westerns. And before that, everything was a goddamn musical, because that generation's nostalgia was for musicals on stage. I don't think you have to read a lot more into it, like it's a sign of our decaying civilization or something.
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Dec 27, 2017 23:35
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Leperflesh posted:It's really just that baby boomers have the money and people my age (I guess I'm Gen X) have money now too, and we're happy to spend it on nostalgia. That's no different than any generation past. There's a reason this country spent like 30+ years being obsessed with westerns. And before that, everything was a goddamn musical, because that generation's nostalgia was for musicals on stage. I don't think you have to read a lot more into it, like it's a sign of our decaying civilization or something. Yeah, with the exception that Disney is gobbling up the rights to most of that poo poo, which is worrisome. But whatever, they produce pap, so if my mom wants to come over so she can watch the movie with the rolling robot, I can deal.
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Dec 27, 2017 23:39
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Ehud posted:If you had to spend 3 years in a really rough prison or 6 months in the front lines of a war which would you pick? Frontlines. I'll be a truck driver or maybe a general's aid
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Dec 27, 2017 23:40
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3 DONG HORSE posted:Frontlines. I'll be a truck driver or maybe a general's aid What if you have to be a grunt
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Dec 27, 2017 23:41
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100% deployed for 6 months. The military often feels like prison but even if it’s at the absolute worst 6 months is shorter than 3 years so you might still have some of your sanity and body left.Leperflesh posted:It's really just that baby boomers have the money and people my age (I guess I'm Gen X) have money now too, and we're happy to spend it on nostalgia. That's no different than any generation past. There's a reason this country spent like 30+ years being obsessed with westerns. And before that, everything was a goddamn musical, because that generation's nostalgia was for musicals on stage. I don't think you have to read a lot more into it, like it's a sign of our decaying civilization or something. You’re probably right. It just feels like we’re in a transitional state as a nation so it’s difficult to pinpoint where and how that impacts various aspects of our culture.
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Dec 27, 2017 23:42
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Relentlessboredomm posted:Perhaps, but I think in an era in which a moron became president on the backs of turning back the clock it’s worth questioning why we want to relive everything so badly and why these nolstagia vehicles are such easy money. well, consider it a risk assessment. you are a movie studio, and you want to earn as much money as possible with a title you produce—what are you gonna do? a) spend money to adequately arm a new writing staff and idea that's never been tried before to do a movie the right way and potentially take a bath b) spend money to adequately arm an old writing staff and idea that's succeeded in the past to earn big $$$ to do a movie just well enough to cash in on something people already like sure, it could backfire like ghostbusters/hulk/other forgettable movies, but there are just so many different franchises that have succeeded this way that there's little reason not to try it.
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Dec 27, 2017 23:43
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GonadTheBallbarian posted:well, consider it a risk assessment. Yes I get this, although like every other financial decision big corporations make it’s incredibly short sighted. It’s a short term cynical cash grab but at the cost of a possible longer more sustainable franchise not to mention how it treats consumers. Regardless I get that most studios are in fact this dumb. Spider-Man is an example of how ridiculous this gets.
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Dec 27, 2017 23:49
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Star Wars isn't just about nostalgia; it's about getting their kids hooked on it as well. "Oh man I'm going to buy you all the same toys I had when I was a kid" and the cycle loving continues. Except this time they figured they had young boys in the bag so they cast a female lead to get the girls.
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Dec 27, 2017 23:50
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Just at Target and the armored car dude collecting the cash had a full on flak vest with 8 loving spare magazine pockets.
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Dec 27, 2017 23:52
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washingtonexaminer https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/946151080546750465
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Dec 27, 2017 23:56
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Ehud posted:What if you have to be a grunt Well as long as I get all the chili macs then I can deal with it
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Dec 27, 2017 23:58
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Ehud posted:list of great movies: Go watch The Usual Suspects. You'll thank me.
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