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It was a do nothing, then years later they fixed it. It also was never really the worst trap feat, just the most obvious. And Pathfinder had the dev (SKR) that argued that wanting crossbows to be a viable option was like wanting water balloons to be viable.
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Dec 27, 2017 21:54
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Strike has a pretty keen Archer. Toss in a Mobility Boost Striker if you want to flip around.
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Dec 27, 2017 21:56
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And MHR has Hawkeye(s) but those options feel like cheating.
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Dec 27, 2017 22:22
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hyphz posted:Strike has a pretty keen Archer. Toss in a Mobility Boost Striker if you want to flip around. I think the Duellist is the best way to play an rear end in a top hat sniper. Spend the whole fight shooting a dudes weapon out of his hand and pinning his feet to the ground, like some kind of unseen trickster god.
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Dec 27, 2017 22:26
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I think the Duellist is the best way to play an rear end in a top hat sniper. Spend the whole fight shooting a dudes weapon out of his hand and pinning his feet to the ground, like some kind of unseen trickster god. "Welcome to the arrow dimension. This is your home now. This is your grave."
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Dec 27, 2017 22:31
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4th editions Ranger was a pretty boss archer if I remember correctly.
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Dec 27, 2017 22:34
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senrath posted:It was a do nothing, then years later they fixed it. It also was never really the worst trap feat, just the most obvious. It's also a nice example of the thinking behind so many poo poo feats - you get a tiny bonus that only comes into play on very unusual occasions.
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Dec 27, 2017 22:36
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senrath posted:It was a do nothing, then years later they fixed it. It also was never really the worst trap feat, just the most obvious. I can never hear SKR be mentioned without thinking of that stupid point cost system for feats he came up with.
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Dec 27, 2017 22:37
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remusclaw posted:4th editions Ranger was a pretty boss archer if I remember correctly. It was overshadowed by the ridiculousness you could get up to with a Twin Strike focused Ranger but yeah. You could also spec a Rogue into hand crossbows that worked pretty decently. FMguru posted:Yeah, IIRC it allowed you to fire a crossbow while prone at only a -2 penalty...which was the same as the penalty for prone shooting a crossbow without that feat. So it literally did nothing, except eat up a feat slot. Not even "a tiny bonus," one of the shittiest things about 3.X era/style feats, which was one of the very first things I ever noticed when I first looked at 3E, is how so much of feat design is based around "oh you still take a penalty to do this thing, it's just a smaller penalty."
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Dec 27, 2017 23:02
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Moriatti posted:
2e had explicit strength requirements for the meatier bows (the composite one was like 15 or something, so not just "you didn't dump this stat"), unless that's something they just added for the BG games
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Dec 27, 2017 23:16
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Pretty sure that was added for BG. 2E didn't have strength requirements by default, but you could pay extra to get a composite bow that granted your strength bonus to damage. This applied to any strength bonus, so if your fighter slapped on a belt of storm giant strength or something he was shooting arrows that did 1d8+12 damage with sheaf arrows, before you took into account any bonus from the bow or the arrows. Bows getting strength to damage by being specially crafted was also buried somewhere in the middle of a paragraph in the 1E DMG about something entirely unrelated, IIRC, because Gygax. Literally no one used it until they spelled it out in the PHB in 2E. unseenlibrarian fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Dec 27, 2017 |
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Dec 27, 2017 23:31
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From 2e: 
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Dec 27, 2017 23:33
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Zerilan posted:I can never hear SKR be mentioned without thinking of that stupid point cost system for feats he came up with.
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Dec 28, 2017 00:47
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Alertness cost more points than Spell focus is the most egregious one I remember.
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Dec 28, 2017 01:43
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You'll all be eating crow when gronks sweep through RPGs as the hot new design.
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Dec 28, 2017 02:00
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Yawgmoth posted:I only partially remember that abomination, specifically that weapon focus was like 10 points because "well obviously it'll give the fight a +1 on all attacks!" but Maximize Spell was only 2-3 because "it has a built-in cost to use!" Pretty much every metamagic was really cheap. Toughness was as much or more than every metamagic feat I think.
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Dec 28, 2017 02:19
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D20PFSRD posted:Prone Shooter: If you have been prone since the end of your last turn, the penalty to your Armor Class against melee attacks made against you is reduced to –2. In addition, the bonus to your Armor Class against ranged attacks made against you is increased to +6. "If you have been prone since the end of your last turn" means that you either voluntarily dropped prone, or had a turn in which you could have stood up but chose not to. And why would you do either if you get any penalty at all? hyphz fucked around with this message at 03:07 on Dec 28, 2017 |
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Dec 28, 2017 03:05
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hyphz posted:"If you have been prone since the end of your last turn" means that you either voluntarily dropped prone, or had a turn in which you could have stood up but chose not to. And why would you do either if you get any penalty at all? Also note how this feat has nothing to do with shooting while prone whatsoever.
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Dec 28, 2017 03:13
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Yawgmoth posted:I only partially remember that abomination, specifically that weapon focus was like 10 points because "well obviously it'll give the fight a +1 on all attacks!" but Maximize Spell was only 2-3 because "it has a built-in cost to use!" Monte Cook had the germ of a good idea in one of the 3rd-party supplements he wrote where taking a martial feat included with it a thrice-per-day "boosted" version of the ability. Like, taking Improved Trip meant that you had three trip attempts per day that just worked, or taking Whirlwind Attack meant that you had three whirlwind attacks per day that only took a standard action, or taking Improved Critical meant that you could double (again) your critical threat range three times per day.
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Dec 28, 2017 03:36
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That's... Almost a good compromise.
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Dec 28, 2017 03:40
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That Old Tree posted:You'll all be eating crow when gronks sweep through RPGs as the hot new design. As cool as stuffing nerds into lockers is,    .
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Dec 28, 2017 03:51
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Auralsaurus Flex posted:As cool as stuffing nerds into lockers is,
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Dec 28, 2017 04:31
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Zerilan posted:I can never hear SKR be mentioned without thinking of that stupid point cost system for feats he came up with. Look, it was just a speculative experiment. 
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Dec 28, 2017 05:51
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Look, it was just a speculative experiment. 
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Dec 28, 2017 06:26
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There are no penalties for firing while prone in PF - actually, it just stops you using missile weapons (except for crossbows/firearms) altogether. Supposedly Prone Shooter originally gave a small attack bonus while firing from prone, but the editor nerfed it to negate penalties without bothering to read the relevant rule. The errataed version is still terrible, but since there's no attack penalty it does provide some benefit if you're in a ranged duel - at least until the opposing wizard fireballs you.
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Dec 28, 2017 06:43
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so list of games with cool archers: Strike Exalted D&D 4e I do love MHR but there's really nothing unique about being an archer in that game than being any other kind of unpowered Complication-focused hero Blockhouse fucked around with this message at 07:05 on Dec 28, 2017 |
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Dec 28, 2017 07:01
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Legend of the Five Rings' Wasp clan of archers started out as "completely broken" (getting more attacks more quickly than any other school) and was later downgraded to just "pretty unfair".
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Dec 28, 2017 07:04
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Legend of the Five Rings' Wasp clan of archers started out as "completely broken" (getting more attacks more quickly than any other school) and was later downgraded to just "pretty unfair". poo poo I totally forgot about the Wasp. I love those guys. I think L5R may actually win the Best Arching award.
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Dec 28, 2017 07:08
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It's hard to balance melee combat against ranged combat, because range is such a great force multiplier. It's absolutely spectacular.
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Dec 28, 2017 07:11
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Well, you also had some games like Exalted 2e where dedicated Athletics / Archery users could just kite melee fighters effortlessly and rain death from miles away.
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Dec 28, 2017 07:19
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Solar Archery is irrelevant in the face of the Sidereal power to shoot bales of hay at people out of their bow. That said, my attempt to create a moderate challenge tonight for 4 Solars and 1 Dragon-Blood fell somewhat flat when the Dawn hit every enemy on the field with a decisive area attack at once, incapacitating one guy and dealing at least 4 lethal to everyone else.
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Dec 28, 2017 07:24
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Rand Brittain posted:Solar Archery is irrelevant in the face of the Sidereal power to shoot bales of hay at people out of their bow.  but "that's exalted"
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Dec 28, 2017 07:27
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Blockhouse posted:so list of games with cool archers: Godbound. Word of the Bow. “That guy I don’t like in the next country over?” *fires bow in the air* “Yeah, he’s dead now.”
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Dec 28, 2017 08:23
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Well, you also had some games like Exalted 2e where dedicated Athletics / Archery users could just kite melee fighters effortlessly and rain death from miles away. 3E has it that attacking from medium range or longer requires a turn-long aim action and makes you susceptible to getting rushed down..
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Dec 28, 2017 09:39
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It's my understanding that D&D 3.0 bowmen were fairly good because of the high number of attacks they could manage, but that this advantage was later nerfed by errata, 3.5 changes, and the problem of DR applying to every individual attack, which made single strong attacks much better than lots of small individual attacks. D&D 5e bowmen, meanwhile, can access the Archery fighting style, which is one of the few sources of direct +to-hit, while also profiting from 5e allowing one to directly add their Dex modifier to attack rolls (which 3e did not allow you to do). Finally, most versions of D&D have bow ranges measured in hundreds of feet, which would theoretically give them a huge advantage in killing monsters long before they ever got close enough to ever become a problem - this is usually counter-balanced by having adventures take place in dungeons, where the 300 foot range of a longbow is reduced to "the end of the corridor", but can still produce some odd logical conclusions when you combine it with 5e's Bounded Accuracy: a group of two dozen bowmen would have a decent shot at killing even adult dragons simply by plinking at it from max distance and hoping for nat 20s.
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Dec 28, 2017 09:49
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I remember that d20 Modern tried balancing ranged vs melee by giving the basic/advanced classes that were explicitly expected to be in close combat (like Strong Hero or Martial Artist) a full base attack bonus while every other combat class got a 3/4th BAB. It didn't really do much other than just increase the amount of bitching on the WotC forums at the time.
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Dec 28, 2017 10:51
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from now on I will only rank D&D editions by how sick their archers are
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Dec 28, 2017 10:53
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Blockhouse posted:from now on I will only rank D&D editions by how sick their archers are I've rarely been failed by the Fighter Test: take any RPG book, open it to the part with the Fightymans class, and if it doesn't excite you, put it the gently caress down. A corollary is the Magic Test: if the book has an entire chapter dedicated to spells, and not everybody has access to spells, that's another huge red flag.
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Dec 28, 2017 10:55
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Fantasy Craft's got pretty decent archer support, what with a decent base Fightyman class, good feat support (FC's got some pretty meaty feats in general, compared to 3.P), and the pretty decent 'Deadeye' Expert class bringing some long-range sniping shenanigans.
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Dec 28, 2017 12:37
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Blockhouse posted:from now on I will only rank D&D editions by how sick their archers are This putts 4e and 2e on top. Where they should be. Moriatti fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Dec 28, 2017 |
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Dec 28, 2017 16:03
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