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One of the most annoying things about this movie has been the "backlash to the backlash" in critics circles and the blogosphere. Just constant attacks on people pointing out plot holes or thinking that character and story arcs were bad by calling them "basement-dwellers" "fanboys" and other insults. Lots of people were not pleased with the movie, why is this so bad?
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Dec 28, 2017 08:11
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| # ? Jun 4, 2024 17:43 |
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No Mods No Masters posted:Maybe I'm in the minority but I thought Hamill was fine in this considering what they gave him to work with. Certainly his acting aged a lot better than Ford ( Hamill is fantastic in this, you're not in the minority.
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Dec 28, 2017 08:16
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) and Fisher (
). I'm a lot more inclined to blame lovely script and direction for something like that than I am to blame him
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galagazombie posted:One of the most annoying things about this movie has been the "backlash to the backlash" in critics circles and the blogosphere. Just constant attacks on people pointing out plot holes or thinking that character and story arcs were bad by calling them "basement-dwellers" "fanboys" and other insults. Lots of people were not pleased with the movie, why is this so bad? Some of the negative reactions to TLJ are so overblown it’s worthy of mockery.
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Dec 28, 2017 08:20
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galagazombie posted:One of the most annoying things about this movie has been the "backlash to the backlash" in critics circles and the blogosphere. Just constant attacks on people pointing out plot holes or thinking that character and story arcs were bad by calling them "basement-dwellers" "fanboys" and other insults. Lots of people were not pleased with the movie, why is this so bad? lol have you read this thread?
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Dec 28, 2017 08:29
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I know people have probably moved past it, but I want to come back to the Holdo/Poe conflict. To me it is like they decided that: 1 - They wanted Poe to learn a lesson about being a hothead 2 - They didn't want Poe to be so wrong/culpable that he completely lost audience sympathy. To this end, they wrote the entire movie backwards to try to justify these conclusions. I know all films are written deliberately to try to tell audiences things, thats fine. But you have to hide this writer manipulation, otherwise it feels forced and the audience will not believe it. I think this is where TLJ failed. They wanted Poe to be wrong, but not so obviously wrong the audience was against him from the start. Ask yourself this: Carrie Fisher wasn't dead when this was filmed, so there was no outside need to have Leia sit out most of the story. So why was she in a coma for most of the movie, only to pop up and be fine at the appropriate time? Because if it had been Leia not telling Poe whats up, the audience would have trusted her because it's Princess Leia and we've seen Star Wars before.. So Holdo was needed. She could withhold info and the audience/Poe would distrust her because, who is this lady? What is her plan? The audience is not familiar with her, the cuts and way Laura Dern acts is shifty, to give the suggestion that she might even be a traitor. The reason she didn't tell Poe the plan was otherwise he wouldn't come up with his own stupid plan. See? Everything working backwards from "Poe is wrong, but understandably so". The way Leia is shot when she busts down the door and stuns Poe is filmed like a twist, it is supposed to surprise. Then you reveal there was a (really loving stupid) plan all along! If the story was written more naturally, you would have to give on screen reasons why Holdo treated Poe like a mushroom. I've seen suggestions that this is because Holdo is concerned there might be a spy on board. Except she does nothing to root out this traitor (giving more ammunition to the audience/Poe who think she might be one) and also, eventually she would have to reveal the transport plan to the entire crew, what would stop this traitor from alerting the FO at this juncture? Nothing. So if she was concerned about leaks, she did nothing to stop them. Not to mention, suspecting Poe of being a traitor is a narrative dead-end for the audience who know for a fact that he can't be. As another example of this "Write backwards to justify later developments", why did the X-Wings dock on the cruiser before the initial jump to lightspeed? We have never seen them do this in any previous Star Wars film, they have their own hyperdrives, so why the need to dock? Everytime we have seen rebels jump to lightspeed in previous films, the X-Wings did it themselves. So why not here? Because so when the FO tracks them there will be no fighters outside to give defence and also so you can blow them all up in the hanger bay without killiing Poe. If his X-Wing was available, you would need real justification why he isn't flying it. So they needed to destroy it, without also killing Poe. So the X-Wings all dock so you can blow them up without losing Poe. Backwards writing, it would be so easy to give his ship damage in the original battle to justify his need to dock, but they don't.
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Dec 28, 2017 08:31
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sponges posted:Some of the negative reactions to TLJ are so overblown it’s worthy of mockery. There are definitely weirdo's overreacting as there always will be, and it hasn't helped that the alt-right has seized the opportunity to try and make it a discussion about it being bad for reasons I do not feel worthy of space here. But it doesn't change the fact I don't remember seeing this kind of anti-audience backlash to for example, the Hobbit trilogy.
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Dec 28, 2017 08:43
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galagazombie posted:There are definitely weirdo's overreacting as there always will be, and it hasn't helped that the alt-right has seized the opportunity to try and make it a discussion about it being bad for reasons I do not feel worthy of space here. But it doesn't change the fact I don't remember seeing this kind of anti-audience backlash to for example, the Hobbit trilogy. The Ghostbusters remake might be comparable. That poo poo got ugly
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Dec 28, 2017 08:52
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sponges posted:The Ghostbusters remake might be comparable. That poo poo got ugly That mostly came from the other direction though. The alt-right HATED the fact that women were being treated as real and equal ghost catchers and went on the warpath. What I'm talking about with TLJ is the Critics/Blogosphere going after the public.
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Dec 28, 2017 08:58
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garycoleisgod posted:I know people have probably moved past it, but I want to come back to the Holdo/Poe conflict. To me it is like they decided that: Well that's the problem with these new films, they are trying very carefully not to alienate fans from the new heroes. Poe and Finn get almost everyone killed, but that's ok because they learn their lesson  . They make this weak commentary on rich people and slave labour (which as noted, is funny as hell coming from Disney). Rey is still bland and without a strong character because they don't seem to know what to do with her besides having her be a mary sue insert. The one character I actually think they've done a fantastic job with is Kylo Ren. galagazombie posted:There are definitely weirdo's overreacting as there always will be, and it hasn't helped that the alt-right has seized the opportunity to try and make it a discussion about it being bad for reasons I do not feel worthy of space here. But it doesn't change the fact I don't remember seeing this kind of anti-audience backlash to for example, the Hobbit trilogy. They're nazis, not alt-right. That's just a bullshit name they use because the word nazi has too many negative connotations. Let's call them for the garbage they are. Having said that, I've been blissfully unaware of this happening because my presence on social media is limited, but this has made me curious, what are these dianogas saying exactly? Are they still hung up about finn?
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Dec 28, 2017 09:03
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galagazombie posted:There are definitely weirdo's overreacting as there always will be, and it hasn't helped that the alt-right has seized the opportunity to try and make it a discussion about it being bad for reasons I do not feel worthy of space here. But it doesn't change the fact I don't remember seeing this kind of anti-audience backlash to for example, the Hobbit trilogy. There's was a similar backlash to Mass Effect 3, especially the ending. It's easier to think everyone who doesn't like the thing you like either hates women or are just entitled fanboy nerds instead of thinking critically about the complaints. Edit: I'm saying both ME and the new SW have had a lot of women haters and entitled dweebs ranting about them. Woden fucked around with this message at 09:12 on Dec 28, 2017 |
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Dec 28, 2017 09:10
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ppl w/ bad opinions of women cant let go of their bad opinions long enough to discover why the movie is actually bad
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Dec 28, 2017 09:17
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ghostbusters was trash because its 2hrs of unfunny improvisational corporate product placement
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Dec 28, 2017 09:19
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i knew some ppl who were real defensive of the new ghostbusters becasue of how nazis reacted to it or w/e which was also dumb
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Dec 28, 2017 09:20
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i guess its the same w/ star wars altho this movie is way less bad than the new ghostbusters
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Dec 28, 2017 09:21
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but really who cares gently caress it just tell ppl what u think of the movie n who cares if they say u hate women because u pointed out a plot hole theyre idiots
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Dec 28, 2017 09:23
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McCloud posted:
They'll never not be mad about Finn, or the main character being a woman. So a lot of the same racist and sexist filth as with TFA. But TLJ has added a whole new conspiracy theory about "Defaming the heroes of White Culture" like Luke or complaining about the Casino plot being communist subversion. They also really hate Holdo for being a woman in power (and exerting it over a white male even!) when there are plenty of reasons like (garycoleisgod pointed out) to not like the character, but no, they had to go with the sexism.
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Dec 28, 2017 09:26
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galagazombie posted:They'll never not be mad about Finn, or the main character being a woman. So a lot of the same racist and sexist filth as with TFA. But TLJ has added a whole new conspiracy theory about "Defaming the heroes of White Culture" like Luke or complaining about the Casino plot being communist subversion. They also really hate Holdo for being a woman in power (and exerting it over a white male even!) when there are plenty of reasons like (garycoleisgod pointed out) to not like the character, but no, they had to go with the sexism. i think they might have issues
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Dec 28, 2017 09:41
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Got to watch the movie on Christmas. I thought it was really, really good until the casino starting happening and the movie started really dragging, but the movie was still pretty good overall.
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Dec 28, 2017 09:53
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Mokelumne Trekka posted:Why did luke leave a map puzzle behind in TFA if he did not want to be found as it turns out TLJ
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Dec 28, 2017 10:04
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“The thing about Snoke is that he is extremely strong with the Force, the dark side of the Force. He’s terribly powerful, of course. But he is also a very vulnerable and wounded character,” Andy Serkis, who plays Snoke through mo-cap 11/24/17 lol http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...r-a8074266.html
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Dec 28, 2017 10:05
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Ohhhhh that explains the scar, then.
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Dec 28, 2017 10:14
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Turdfuzz posted:ghostbusters was trash because its 2hrs of unfunny improvisational corporate product placement the remake, too
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Dec 28, 2017 10:18
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garycoleisgod posted:Everytime we have seen rebels jump to lightspeed in previous films, the X-Wings did it themselves. So why not here? As far as in universe reasons that work that I came up with in seconds, the fighters could have been scrambled before poo poo went down and not have had a chance to fuel up entirely
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Dec 28, 2017 10:28
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Why would he leave a map puzzle behind if he did want to be found? There's basically no way to explain the map thing that makes sense, and TLJ's explanation was hinted at in TFA. Luke didn't leave a map puzzle.
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Dec 28, 2017 10:40
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Spacebump posted:“The thing about Snoke is that he is extremely strong with the Force, the dark side of the Force. He’s terribly powerful, of course. But he is also a very vulnerable and wounded character,” Andy Serkis, who plays Snoke through mo-cap Is there ever an interview with an actor about their character where they don't talk about how deep and interesting their character is? I mean this interview is a joke given what we got but I'm not expecting him to go "Yeah Snoke is a cackling idiot cartoon villain whose primary motivation is drowning puppies". These interviews always strike me like sports interviews where they ask canned questions about how the recipients are going to win the game and the recipients always give a canned answer about "playing their hardest".
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Dec 28, 2017 10:43
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Penpal posted:As far as in universe reasons that work that I came up with in seconds, the fighters could have been scrambled before poo poo went down and not have had a chance to fuel up entirely 1 - Could be, but it's not in the film 2 - More likely they wanted Poe grounded, but it's hard to destroy his X-Wing in flight without killing Poe, so they came up with a unexplained workaround. Like, all films are deliberate. Things are inserted to set up later things but if it is not natural people might spend more time wondering what the gently caress rather than absorbing the story.
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Dec 28, 2017 10:44
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I think the only people who do are people who already don't like the film for another reason.
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Dec 28, 2017 10:45
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Kanos posted:Is there ever an interview with an actor about their character where they don't talk about how deep and interesting their character is? I mean this interview is a joke given what we got but I'm not expecting him to go "Yeah Snoke is a cackling idiot cartoon villain whose primary motivation is drowning puppies". Serkis is a professional and actors get paid to make something out of nothing all the time, it's their whole job. Of course they're going to say there's so much depth to their characters, that's what they are paid to invent.
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Dec 28, 2017 10:47
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galagazombie posted:They'll never not be mad about Finn, or the main character being a woman. So a lot of the same racist and sexist filth as with TFA. But TLJ has added a whole new conspiracy theory about "Defaming the heroes of White Culture" like Luke or complaining about the Casino plot being communist subversion. They also really hate Holdo for being a woman in power (and exerting it over a white male even!) when there are plenty of reasons like (garycoleisgod pointed out) to not like the character, but no, they had to go with the sexism. I'm mad about Finn because he's been relegated to the role of a semi-cowardly nobody who isn't given even a quarter of the importance of any of the other new additions to the cast in both of his films thus far, despite having potentially the most interesting possibilities as a character. There's a lot different things you could do with a character like Finn given his background. Instead he's a opportunistic coward who isn't allowed to do anything without serious consequences for both himself and others. By the end of TFA, it seemed like he was actually going to step up into a role of some importance. TLJ reverts him back into being a coward where he can once again be press-ganged into service for a mission that was ultimately made pointless by events well beyond his control. When he gets his big moment, it's explicitly a retread of a lesson another character was only ever in need of learning in this movie specifically. I think he's a waste of a good idea, like a vast majority of the new characters introduced to the sequels. Rey's biggest crime is that she's boring. She starts off naturally gifted and is full of empathy for others, and that's kinda it. Her flaws have nothing to do with ability, hence why she can just outright use the Force to a degree not even Luke was capable of in ESB during her first appearance. All of her flaws are 'emotional', her 'need' for others to recognize her in a way that her parents never did. As a character she doesn't really mesh well with anyone except a now-dead Han Solo and Luke Skywalker, and as of TLJ, Kylo Ren. She's not really an equal contributor to any of these relationships as well, and that's honestly really disappointing. It's like they wanted to give us another Luke Skywalker, but they forgot that Luke's own flaws had as much to do with his ability as a rebel, a jedi, as well as his character, which drove him to make almost fatal errors in episode 5 and 6. By contrast, Rey hasn't really been allowed to make any real mistakes, everything either works out, or she's good enough to get her way through a bad situation anyway. While this does make for one of the most interesting sequences in TLJ (the throne room is the peak of the film for me), she still comes up short next to Kylo Ren. In one film, we learned more about Kylo Ren as a person than we've learned about Rey in two films... and Kylo Ren's the person who tells us more about her than Rey has herself. This isn't the fault of the actress whatsoever, I think it's pretty obvious that she's really goddamned talented (and that defiant roar of hers in the throne room battle is amazing AND a good parallel to Kylo's own outburst after getting shot in TFA). The script and the scenario is once again dropping the ball on what really should be one of the most compelling characters in the story. Instead, TLJ spends an inordinate amount of time trying to teach some other character a lesson/the audience a lesson about the lesson that character was supposed to learn. Poe's own lesson comes at the cost of hundreds of other nobodies on top of one particular nobody who essentially is in the film to be one other part of the lesson plan until she goes and kills herself in spectacular fashion. I get the distinct impression from TFA and TLJ that there's never really been a plan for what the writers have wanted these characters to be and where they want them to go over the course of the new trilogy. TFA was written as is for pretty obvious reasons. TLJ feels like more of a reaction to "fans" and TFA, as opposed to a seriously coherent continuation of an overarching plot. That's bad.
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Dec 28, 2017 10:56
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I think that pretty succinctly nails down a lot of my problems as well with Rey and Finn. One thing I did like about the Throne room fight is how angry and aggressive Rey is and how calm Kylo is. You'd expect the opposite from them. Too bad it didn't lead to anything interesting.
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Dec 28, 2017 11:06
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Something definitely rubbed me the wrong way about the only two prominent people of color in the cast being relegated to this B-plot where they have wacky hijinks and accomplish nothing of importance.
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Dec 28, 2017 11:23
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It's actually worse than that, they gently caress up and get half the resistance killed, so their bumbling was more harmful than just staying put.
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Dec 28, 2017 11:31
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What did SMG think of Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi?
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Dec 28, 2017 11:33
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Finn's biggest contribution is dumping TLJ's Boba Fett into a literal trash-fire, an action that has no real meaning to anyone other than himself. I'm assuming it's to represent his 'acceptance' of being a rebel, but this is seriously something he could have already gone through by the end of TFA, given the experiences he has throughout the film. I'm nowhere near equipped to properly understand what the character of Finn means as far as the depiction of PoC in Hollywood, but something about how they've written the character feels off even to this guy here.
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Dec 28, 2017 11:36
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Finns character arc is completed. Sometimes like LotR or other series main characters can become side plot only to come to the forefront. Let’s see if he’s better utilized in the last one.
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Dec 28, 2017 11:37
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Gatts posted:Finns character arc is completed. Sometimes like LotR or other series main characters can become side plot only to come to the forefront. Let’s see if he’s better utilized in the last one. So is Finn the Merry to Rose's Pippin?
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Dec 28, 2017 11:39
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I think it's funny that we're in the third cycle of Star Wars trilogies here and the only plot-significant character contribution from a person of color came from fuckin' Lando back in 1983. Trash bin robots have played a more significant role in shaping the course of the galaxy than black people.
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Dec 28, 2017 11:41
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Gatts posted:Finns character arc is completed. Sometimes like LotR or other series main characters can become side plot only to come to the forefront. Let’s see if he’s better utilized in the last one. His character arc wasn't completed so much as he was reset back to some point in the middle of TFA so he can 'grow' all over again and confront his demons again, while still contributing nothing positive to the overall plot. The biggest difference is that instead of ending up almost dead, he gets to throw a one-liner at Shiny Fett, and gets his turn to be the concerned friend watching over his new maybe of a love interest at the end of the movie. The movie's supposed to be about failure being okay and being something you learn from. However, he's basically been a failure for two movies straight. In TLJ, he's essentially forced to grow in nearly the exact same way as an ascended extra, who also never actually needed the lessons being taught until TLJ started. The writers didn't know what the hell to do with the poor guy, so they just tied Finn to another new character who basically exerts authority over him in every way, complete with even denying him agency in how he spends his life in service to a cause. And then he cares for her because of it all. Explosion kisses are a hell of a thing I guess. Maybe if he's lucky, he'll get his turn to be the one in Ep 9 running through similar motions that Rey did in TLJ while everyone else the movie is focusing on gets poo poo on for "reasons". fivegears4reverse fucked around with this message at 11:53 on Dec 28, 2017 |
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Dec 28, 2017 11:50
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yea finn is more wasted potential
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Dec 28, 2017 11:57
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i like kyle the most probly altho when he reverted back to "we can rule the galaxy together blah blah blah" he got more boring
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Dec 28, 2017 11:59
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