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I've never actually seen it but isn't Gasaraki in this vein.
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Dec 27, 2017 21:51
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Guy Goodbody posted:In all seriousness, Arcsquad12 watch Girls und Panzer If I wanted to watch Kelly's Heroes references I'd just watch Kelly's Heroes.
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Dec 27, 2017 21:57
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Arcsquad12 posted:If I wanted to watch Kelly's Heroes references I'd just watch Kelly's Heroes. Why not have both
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Dec 27, 2017 23:12
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tsob posted:I don't think even VOTOMs is particularly noteworthy as methodical tank combat, presuming that means using tactics to maneuver enemies in to positions of weakness, multiple crew members to a unit or at least team mates in mass produced units corralling the enemy etc. VOTOMS does feature effective tactics with conventional weaponry though. Carpet bombing, landmines, napalm, artillery, air strikes, heck even dudes with bazookas are shown tearing apart AT teams. 08th MS comes close to that with guerrillas firing RPGs into MS cockpits and whatnot
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Dec 28, 2017 04:44
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tsob posted:I don't think even VOTOMs is particularly noteworthy as methodical tank combat, presuming that means using tactics to maneuver enemies in to positions of weakness, multiple crew members to a unit or at least team mates in mass produced units corralling the enemy etc. VOTOMs does have skating mechs and the protagonist does mostly use uncustomized mass produced units but most of Chirico's fights are about him outdoing people on his own; not any kind of tactical combat. I think he just needs to stop looking for tank combat in mecha anime, because it tends to treat mechs as planes and not tanks. VOTOMs has a lot of "standard guys doing standard military things to win a battle" except with mecha. The entire Not-Vietnam Arc is basically a love letter to how lovely conventional combat is for everyone involved. Even Chirico's one man army moments are almost universally the result of immense amounts of preparation and/or skill on his own part, rather than a typically standard Gundam-Flies-In-And-Dominates-Everyone-With-Sheer-Power affair. Nobody in VOTOMs ever has that kind of technological edge and even the very best ATs aren't really notably more impressive than the basic dumb grunts beyond who happens to be piloting them. It's not a treatise on tactics but since Arcsquad specifically mentioned early Geass as something appealing to them and early Geass's fight choreography has a lot of VOTOMs DNA.
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Dec 28, 2017 10:31
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Kanos posted:Nobody in VOTOMs ever has that kind of technological edge VOTOMs spoilers ahead obviously, but Wiseman is a literal AI God, who can contact people throughout the galaxy, has teleportation technology, is able to create super soldiers hardier than regular people and is responsible for advanced units like the Rabidlydog. If you go by the sequel OVAs he's also able to manipulate luck on a moment by moment basis for individuals to ensure his successor does not and possibly even cannot die. I'm pretty sure that counts as a technological edge. That aside, I'd have thought he meant mecha combat itself but if he means more conventional combat as an addendum to mecha combat that's a different thing.
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Dec 28, 2017 13:02
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The main problem with combined arms mecha is that it’s really hard to do in a way that doesn’t immediately illustrate why mecha can only be taken seriously as weapons platforms in fiction.
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Dec 28, 2017 19:23
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tsob posted:VOTOMs spoilers ahead obviously, but Wiseman is a literal AI God, who can contact people throughout the galaxy, has teleportation technology, is able to create super soldiers hardier than regular people and is responsible for advanced units like the Rabidlydog. If you go by the sequel OVAs he's also able to manipulate luck on a moment by moment basis for individuals to ensure his successor does not and possibly even cannot die. I'm pretty sure that counts as a technological edge. Honestly nothing that the spoilered character does in the TV show(and I'm talking about the TV show, because the OVAs do a bunch of weird poo poo and are mostly not good) matches up to the technological bullshit edge of the Gundams in basically any major Gundam production. The Rabidlydog is a super high performance AT custom-designed for one person. It's noticeably faster and stronger than a normal AT and can even outperform high spec custom units. Then you have something like the Exia which has a perpetual energy generator and uses technology so advanced that it is incomprehensible by its opponents to do loving impossible things like disregard the concept of inertia, or something like the Wing Zero which has a computer that can calculate the future and is made of invincible alloy while also carrying a WMD as its primary weapon, or something like the basic-rear end RX-78 which uses a rifle that blows holes in battleships and is impervious to standard enemy weaponry for the majority of the war it was designed for.
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Dec 28, 2017 19:53
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The RX-78-2's armor advantage is invalidated by the time the Gouf comes in to play in the mid teens at worst, and is even being invalidated earlier than that through other means. Including just planting a half dozen bombs directly on the armor. Calling that a majority is a stretch. The beam rifle also isn't nearly that big a jump, since it's just a minituarized battleship gun. Something the other side manages by wars end regardless. The advantages it brings to the fore aren't nearly as great as something like the Exia.
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Dec 28, 2017 21:45
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poo poo, I think MSG even has man-portable beam sidearms so it's not like miniaturization is what made the gundam so good, it's just ridiculously powerful for its size
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Dec 28, 2017 22:57
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I tend to repeat myself on this one, but I find the Barbatos interesting in the "overpowered Gundam" category since, on paper, it's not that much stronger than the other suits. The thing is that the control method and the pilot combine to make it a mobile cuisinart. Barbatos is a solid enough MS, but it's Mika that makes it a proper demon. It's been a thing since the first Gundam to have a balance between "The suit is great" and "The lead pilot is amazing at killing people", but IBO's tilt is definitely on the pilot end of things.
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Dec 28, 2017 23:00
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Now that you mention it, does seem a little contrived that Gjallarhorn would vilify whiskers. If they made the surgery safer and installed whiskers in every Graze pilot they'd never lose.
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Dec 28, 2017 23:18
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chiasaur11 posted:I tend to repeat myself on this one, but I find the Barbatos interesting in the "overpowered Gundam" category since, on paper, it's not that much stronger than the other suits. The thing is that the control method and the pilot combine to make it a mobile cuisinart. It's true of almost every Gundam to be honest. Even a lot of Gundam shows that begin with overpowered units eventually trend towards the pilot being the defining feature of the unit and if the unit is overpowered it's because the pilot is someone who can take special advantage of it. There are exceptions (Turn-A, G-Self and Gundam X come to mind) but by and large it's the pilot who makes the difference, if just through having high Newtypeism that allows them to make the unit do poo poo it wasn't even intended to do.
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Dec 28, 2017 23:23
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I'm not even sure I'd count those. In Turn-A at least, Harry Ord makes it clear that he believes it's because Loran is the pilot that it's so dangerous, especially after Loran uses it to defend the Winter Palance and Harry talks about how the size of the barrier Loran erects proves that he's dangerous as the pilot of the Turn-A. That Joseph gets it only a couple of episodes later and does nothing except lose to Gym with it kind of proves the point I suppose. The Turn-A is singularly dangeous in and of itself because of the Moonlight Butterfly, but Loran refrains from using and tries to stop it when people do, so the point is rather moot. The other two are probably much the same, I just can't recall them nearly as well. https://webmshare.com/70noB I do recall that Garrod was able to precision aim the Double X's Twin Satellite Cannon to within a few feet for multiple consecutive shots, which nobody expected given the size of the beam so he certainly displayed some skill with it at the very least. Edit: I'm just gonna leave the webm link in url tags unless someone wants to tell me how to embed them directly in the post, because I really have no idea how to do that with webms.
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Dec 28, 2017 23:36
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Marx Headroom posted:Now that you mention it, does seem a little contrived that Gjallarhorn would vilify whiskers. If they made the surgery safer and installed whiskers in every Graze pilot they'd never lose. They had a reputation for never losing without it at the start of the show. Even aside from that, most soldiers with whiskers were more dangerous than grunt pilots, but less useful than aces. Julieta and Amida were shown to be much, much more lethal than non-named A.V. pilots. I mean, yeah, it's convenient for the plot that Gjallarhorn had a purity of the human form thing going on, but it also worked within the context of the show. It wasn't until Tekkadan that anyone showed human debris as able to keep up with the elites, and it wasn't until Tekkadan that anyone thought taking on Gjallarhorn was anything short of suicide.
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Dec 28, 2017 23:36
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Marx Headroom posted:Now that you mention it, does seem a little contrived that Gjallarhorn would vilify whiskers. If they made the surgery safer and installed whiskers in every Graze pilot they'd never lose. 1) it's ideological, since Gjallarhorn are (publicly) hardline anti-augmentation/anti-AI, for reasons that are obvious once you know what the Calamity War was. 2) totally coincidentally, it stops people who aren't Gjallarhorn from being able to challenge Gjallarhorn's trained baseline human pilots via simply piloting their vehicle with their brain.
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Dec 29, 2017 01:03
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Lemon-Lime posted:2) totally coincidentally, it stops people who aren't Gjallarhorn from being able to challenge Gjallarhorn's trained baseline human pilots via simply piloting their vehicle with their brain. That doesn't really mean much as a point, since if Gjallarhorn did allow their pilots to use whiskers/AVs , they'd have just as much of a leg up on the average pilot through suit superiority as they would otherwise. Scenario A: Baseline human in bottom dollar mech versus trained baseline Gjallarhorn pilot in top of the line mech. Gjallarhorn win. Scenario B: AV user in bottom dollar mech versus trained baseline Gjallarhorn pilot in top of the line mech. 50/50? Scenario C: AV user in bottom dollar mech versus trained AV Gjallarhorn pilot in top of the line mech. Gjallarhorn back to basically assured win because of superior suits and training.
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Dec 29, 2017 01:50
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tsob posted:That doesn't really mean much as a point, since if Gjallarhorn did allow their pilots to use whiskers/AVs , they'd have just as much of a leg up on the average pilot through suit superiority as they would otherwise. See 1) in the post you quoted.
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Dec 29, 2017 01:52
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The point being that whether Gjallarhorn allow whiskers/AV or not, they are still assured superiority and wins in most remotely fair scenarios because of superior training and mechs regardless. You only need to illustrate point 1, because point 2 doesn't mean much given the advantages they already have through their setup. Which makes it not actually coincidence whether or not they use whiskers.
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Dec 29, 2017 01:56
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The safe AV system McGillis was using was a new development. The original Gjallarhorn founders were using the type that burned out your brain and most of them died. So the stigma was put in place by the kids of the hero pilots. Presumably they were like the bad guys in every John Wick movie. lovely rich spoiled pussies who didn't want to risk their brain. They could make their soldiers do it, but then their own soldiers would be a threat to them.
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Dec 29, 2017 02:02
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tsob posted:That doesn't really mean much as a point, since if Gjallarhorn did allow their pilots to use whiskers/AVs , they'd have just as much of a leg up on the average pilot through suit superiority as they would otherwise. The obvious problem is that whiskers democratise suit use. All you need to be is a kid with a few hours’ training and bam, you’re good to go. If pilots talented enough to use eighteen-metre-tall war machines without tripping over their own gigantic feet are a rare commodity, Gjallarhorn’s position is that much more secure. We can tell that this is the strategy they go for because their flagship suit, the Graze, is specialised for asymmetrical warfare, and doesn’t actually match up that well against dedicated suit-killers like Hyakurens (which is why they come up with a machine better-equipped for suit-to-suit combat, the Reginlaze, when Alaya-Vijnana-enhanced child soldiers make widespread suit use viable again). They don’t rely on having better suits, but having the only suits.
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Dec 29, 2017 02:02
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Gjallarhorn already know AV use is pretty wide spread on Mars in the start of season one though. It's not that lovely pilots don't have AV; it's that they don't have mechs with AV to fight them because the suits are too expensive for even most small time mercenary groups. Only larger groups like those Jupiter Mafia guys have them.
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Dec 29, 2017 02:10
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tsob posted:Gjallarhorn already know AV use is pretty wide spread on Mars in the start of season one though. It's not that lovely pilots don't have AV; it's that they don't have mechs with AV to fight them because the suits are too expensive for even most small time mercenary groups. Only larger groups like those Jupiter Mafia guys have them. That changes up pretty fast after the battle of Edmonton, though. I mean, that was the whole point of the start of S2 - demonstrating that ultra-disposable AV-augmented child soldiers could achieve incredible results when given the right weapons. They went from a useful tactical asset to an absolute must-have.
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Dec 29, 2017 02:16
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tsob posted:Gjallarhorn already know AV use is pretty wide spread on Mars in the start of season one though. It's not that lovely pilots don't have AV; it's that they don't have mechs with AV to fight them because the suits are too expensive for even most small time mercenary groups. Only larger groups like those Jupiter Mafia guys have them. Teiwaz have Mobile Suits, but they don't use AV connectors. That's the domain of pirates and mercenaries willing to use child slaves as pilots, because the AV Whiskers have to be implanted into their spines while their bodies are still developing. McGillis having AV surgery as an adult was an entirely new development offshoot from the project that made the Graze Ein. Guy Goodbody posted:The safe AV system McGillis was using was a new development. The original Gjallarhorn founders were using the type that burned out your brain and most of them died. So the stigma was put in place by the kids of the hero pilots. Presumably they were like the bad guys in every John Wick movie. lovely rich spoiled pussies who didn't want to risk their brain. They could make their soldiers do it, but then their own soldiers would be a threat to them. Only the implantation method was safer, McGillis didn't go full Berserk Mode. That was what fried Mikazuki's brain, and it was explicitly the "Kill the Mobile Armors" mode.
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Dec 29, 2017 02:21
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Another thing to remember is that as soon as Gjallarhorn actually started losing fights, Rustal went to the nearest mad scientist and asked if she had any new ideas for horrifying cybernetic surgeries. Gjallarhorn has a lot of traditions about Honorable Combat and Pure Humanity and such, but it's mostly so everybody else follows their rules, and fights on their terms. What they wanted (and, for quite some time, had) was a solar system where nobody would dare gently caress with them. They also wanted the 7 Stars to look like a legitimate institution, a proud and unbroken lineage, which meant that gambling heirs on childhood surgery was a no-go. Of course, the problem with giving people political power just for being descended from really talented robot killers is that most of them aren't terribly suited for it. So you mostly get manipulative bastards like the Fareeds and Rustal herding would-be knights like Carta, early series Gaelio, and Iok. The most successful policies were the ones that looked like they satisfied the second group while really being for the benefit of the first.
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Dec 29, 2017 03:42
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IBO does a good job of misleading the audience as to why Gjallarhorn doesn't use AV or mass produce Gundams. They dance around it being lost technology or an aversion to augmentation but then it just turns out it's a waste of lives and money to raise cyborg supersoldiers from birth to pilot bespoke superweapons when the dominant military strategy is to have as many grunts as you can pointing railguns in the same direction. Very few factions are dumb enough to challenge them, fewer still are sufficient to challenge their fleet of mobile suits and handful of Juliette/pre-aug McGillis tier aces, and war crime-ing the 1-2 remaining factions is probably a more manageable PR situation than adopting AV. AV and gundams are game-changers for pirates and backwater mercenaries but don't matter to the faction that has actual military assets. IBO might fail at writing and execution but they went all out with the worldbuilding and mech design. 
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Dec 29, 2017 03:55
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tsob posted:The RX-78-2's armor advantage is invalidated by the time the Gouf comes in to play in the mid teens at worst, and is even being invalidated earlier than that through other means. Including just planting a half dozen bombs directly on the armor. Calling that a majority is a stretch. The beam rifle also isn't nearly that big a jump, since it's just a minituarized battleship gun. Something the other side manages by wars end regardless. The advantages it brings to the fore aren't nearly as great as something like the Exia. What? In the first fight with the Gouf, Amuro gets lit up by Zaku/Gouf machine guns by the Gouf and Ral's escorts like a 1920s gangster movie hit and suffers no appreciable damage, followed by having his fully loaded hyper bazooka detonate two feet from his MS with no appreciable damage(something Ral comments on), followed by having Ramba Ral kick him around for a couple minutes before being forced to retreat. The RX-78-2 is RIDICULOUSLY sturdy and remains as such until everyone else starts slinging around beam weapons, by which point Amuro is good enough to not get thrown around by enemies anymore so he doesn't immediately die. You also undersell exactly how ridiculous the beam rifle is in the OYW, in my opinion. It being a miniaturized battleship gun that is mounted on a dramatically faster and more maneuverable platform is a big deal and makes it horrifyingly dangerous, since mobile suits are entirely reliant on their ability to easily outmaneuver and outpace battleships to destroy them and are dead meat if they take a hit from that level of firepower. Suddenly you have a mobile suit that can pop other mobile suits like bubbles from a distance and can do it repeatedly; when Char first sees the beam rifle in action he's horrified because he understands what it means. The beam rifle is only successfully duplicated by Zeon by the very end of the war, and even the Federation who invented the technology can't afford to mass produce them economically, which is why GMs use lovely beam spray guns instead of real rifles.
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Dec 29, 2017 03:55
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Kanos posted:What? The Gouf's heat rod cuts through the Gundam's armor like a hot knife through butter the first time it appears when Sayla is piloting it. After the Gouf came Doms with heat sabers that could cut it, and after them there were a load of aquatic mobile suits and armors, much of which featured beam weaponry capable of damaging the Gundam, then space based mobile armors with beam weapons and so on. Kanos posted:You also undersell exactly how ridiculous the beam rifle is in the OYW, in my opinion. It being a miniaturized battleship gun that is mounted on a dramatically faster and more maneuverable platform is a big deal and makes it horrifyingly dangerous, since mobile suits are entirely reliant on their ability to easily outmaneuver and outpace battleships to destroy them and are dead meat if they take a hit from that level of firepower. Suddenly you have a mobile suit that can pop other mobile suits like bubbles from a distance and can do it repeatedly; when Char first sees the beam rifle in action he's horrified because he understands what it means. The beam rifle is only successfully duplicated by Zeon by the very end of the war, and even the Federation who invented the technology can't afford to mass produce them economically, which is why GMs use lovely beam spray guns instead of real rifles. I'm aware that it's a technological edge; but it's nowhere near the kind of jump in technology that the Exia or several other shows (like Wing's Buster Rifle) represent. That Char could comprehend it straight away and knew exactly what it meant kind of makes the point really. Also, I'm pretty sure some GMs used standard beam rifles during Jaburo and not beam spray guns. tsob fucked around with this message at 04:22 on Dec 29, 2017 |
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Dec 29, 2017 04:18
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Even a beam spray gun is rather terrifying. Instead of one battleship cannon firing at you you're getting the equivalent of a 100mm auto cannon like the zaku machine gun except with increased armor penetrating capabilities.
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Dec 29, 2017 04:27
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chiasaur11 posted:Another thing to remember is that as soon as Gjallarhorn actually started losing fights, Rustal went to the nearest mad scientist and asked if she had any new ideas for horrifying cybernetic surgeries. I really liked Rustal as a villain, just because he was terrifyingly competent. Sure, he could send waves of grunts to die at the hands of the Gundams in their final stand... Or he could just set up an orbital bombardment and lead them right into it with minimal casualties.
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Dec 29, 2017 05:55
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Finally getting around to fully watching Gundam F91 after only seeing snatches of it over the years and I have to say I’m really disappointed this didn’t get the full television series treatment it was originally intended to have. I love a lot about it but since it’s a TV show that got turned into a movie it feels chopped in a lot of places so it can be garring storywise.
Darkman Fanpage fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Jan 2, 2018 |
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Jan 2, 2018 19:35
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the story is hella rushed and makes little sense but god that movie is beautiful
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Jan 2, 2018 20:16
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Darkman Fanpage posted:Finally getting around to fully watching Gundam F91 after only seeing snatches of it over the years and I have to say I’m really disappointed this didn’t get the full television series treatment it was originally intended to have. I love a lot about it but since it’s a TV show that got turned into a movie it feels chopped in a lot of places so it can be garring storywise. I think you’re overestimating how coherent F91’s production was.
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Jan 2, 2018 20:21
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The best bit of animation of F91 is the lady getting donked on the head by the shell casing. The second best bit of animation is the lady falling off the moped, if thats from F91, my memory tells me it is but who knows. It's just so Tomino.
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Jan 2, 2018 20:36
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I know I know. The whole thing was a mess which is a shame because it would have made for a good series if allowed to be fully fleshed out. Instead its lots of confusion as far as the story goes.
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Jan 2, 2018 20:54
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Gaius Marius posted:I've never actually seen it but isn't Gasaraki in this vein. Off topic: I only remember seeing the trailer; I think it was on the Evangelion VHSes. Is it any good?
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Jan 2, 2018 21:52
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Kuvo posted:the story is hella rushed and makes little sense but god that movie is beautiful Monaghan fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Jan 2, 2018 |
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Jan 2, 2018 22:06
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F91 is like a Gundam fever dream. It was bad and unpleasant, but the colors and wow umm you could tell there was almost something there you would want to enjoy.
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Jan 3, 2018 00:04
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I think F91 is like, peak Gundam. It's got More Zeons Yet Again, War is Bad, Random Royalty... in spaaaace, it's really quite nice to look at, nothing makes any sense (Tomino + absolutely no time spent explaining anything, even less than a normal Tomino production), and people eat it constantly in the most ridiculous way. Best of all unlike something like V gundam, it's only 90ish minutes,
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Jan 3, 2018 03:46
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So does F91 take place over a few days or a few months? It's not clear
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Jan 3, 2018 03:50
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