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If you want a decent comic you can skip right to Layman's portion, but honestly, none of it* was spectacular. *That I tried, hopping on and off with every writer change.
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Dec 28, 2017 08:19
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Is that the one with One Face? That was Batman: The Dark Knight.
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Dec 28, 2017 08:22
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MonsterEnvy posted:And yeah like Public Works said Roman's Parents hated Bruce's but forced him to befriend Bruce despite Roman not being fond of Bruce himself. Roman was also jealous of Bruce when his parents died as Roman hated his parents. Also this part is pretty much exactly the same as Hush's Backstory. So Hush ripped off Black Mask wholesale.
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Dec 28, 2017 09:50
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Batman ego is another great beginner Batman comic
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Dec 28, 2017 12:33
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If you have a PS Plus, the first Batman Telltale game will be free in January. It's pretty good, and puts its own unique spin on the Batman mythos.
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Dec 28, 2017 17:07
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Mr Hootington posted:Did i make a horrible mistake by buying all of the new 52 Detective comis run? This first tony daniel's issue says yes i did. Yes
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Dec 28, 2017 17:24
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You can ignore Detective entirely until Rebirth happens and the numbers get big again
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Dec 28, 2017 17:52
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Mr Hootington posted:Did i make a horrible mistake by buying all of the new 52 Detective comis run? This first tony daniel's issue says yes i did. I borrowed volume 1 from my local library and I hated it.
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Dec 28, 2017 17:57
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pubic works project posted:I borrowed volume 1 from my local library and I hated it. It wasnt good. Well 1 more volume of Daniels.
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Dec 28, 2017 18:42
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I seem to remember N52 Det Comics being supremely mediocre instead of outright bad. I read the whole run iirc and never thought it was amazing, but never outright bad (besides the first issue because HOLY loving poo poo) and iirc it had a really really good Zero Year tie-in?
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Dec 28, 2017 18:46
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Just do yourself a favor and track down Rucka's Detective Comics run. That would be a good pallet cleanser. Hell even Dini's run would work
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Dec 28, 2017 19:51
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Madkal posted:Just do yourself a favor and track down Rucka's Detective Comics run. That would be a good pallet cleanser. Hell even Dini's run would work I have dini's in the physical copies. It was a good run. I dont know what i was thinking when i bought these. I may have thought it was part of snyder's run since i bought it all together. Lick! The! Whisk! posted:I seem to remember N52 Det Comics being supremely mediocre instead of outright bad. I read the whole run iirc and never thought it was amazing, but never outright bad (besides the first issue because HOLY loving poo poo) and iirc it had a really really good Zero Year tie-in? Go back and reread the Daniel's issues. The art is gorgeous, but the stories and dialogue are next level terrible.
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Dec 28, 2017 20:19
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Speaking of Dini is his Streets of Gotham run good? I know I just shat all over Hush but I could use more good Dick / Damian series.
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Dec 28, 2017 22:39
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Hush is worth reading just so you can read its sequel Heart of Hush, which is a fantastic Dini story that's reminiscent of the best episodes of the animated series.
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Dec 29, 2017 16:38
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Lick! The! Whisk! posted:The most devious trick of Loeb comics is that they're not lovely when you read them, especially if you've never read a Batman comic before. If you've literally never read Batman before and you read, say, Hush for the first time you'll think it's the sickest poo poo ever, because it's got this "awesome" crazy brand new villain and every single iconic villain ever and Batman joking around with Robin and flirting with Catwoman and swordfighting in the desert and even a little bit of Batman fighting Superman and and and. So what you're saying is Loeb is the Michael Bay of comics?
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Dec 30, 2017 04:15
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SMP posted:Speaking of Dini is his Streets of Gotham run good? I know I just shat all over Hush but I could use more good Dick / Damian series. I'm fond of it, there's some quality Dick/Damian material in there and IIRC it has Batman (Bruce Wayne) and Catwoman's first meeting after Final Crisis, which is very sweet.
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Dec 30, 2017 04:21
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AlternateNu posted:So what you're saying is Loeb is the Michael Bay of comics? ....sssssssort of? I think Bay is a lot more successful than Loeb is, and has created some legitimately good and entertaining works within his chosen medium. Loeb's Batman comics are all really bad in my opinion; even Long Halloween is a story that doesn't really make much sense when you start analyzing it as a story, and I always felt like the central premise of it - the titular Long Halloween - happens just to happen, it has no real purpose and doesn't help the story as written. Like I legit think TLH works better as a constructed narrative if it happens over the space of a couple of weeks instead of an entire loving year because of the dumb Holiday gimmick. And that's just one example; I would agree TLH is probs his best work, especially considering it's the first time he uses the exact same plot he eventually uses in Dark Victory and Hush, but I wouldn't really call it good per se. NieR Occomata fucked around with this message at 04:41 on Dec 30, 2017 |
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Dec 30, 2017 04:38
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I won’t defend it, but boy do I love Loeb’s Superman/Batman. Even the Supergirl arc. Came out right when I was getting into going to the comic shop every week. That and Johns Teen Titans were my jams as a teen.
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Dec 30, 2017 04:54
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Lick! The! Whisk! posted:....sssssssort of? I think Bay is a lot more successful than Loeb is, and has created some legitimately good and entertaining works within his chosen medium. Loeb's Batman comics are all really bad in my opinion; even Long Halloween is a story that doesn't really make much sense when you start analyzing it as a story Swap the names and replace "The Long Halloween" with "The Rock," and you basically have my take on it.
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Dec 30, 2017 04:57
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I mean I love The Rock, but even beyond that there's a lot of things in TLH that are just nonsensical. Why does like every single one of Batman's villains show up in it? And no, "because it takes place over a year and also the story is about how Gotham went from supercrime to supervillain crime" doesn't really count. That's the excuse Jeph Loeb uses to add the Joker and Poison Ivy and Scarecrow and the Riddler and Solomon Grundy into it, but it's not like the story is strengthened by their inclusion. If it had, like, the Riddler in it, and Calendar Man as the sort of point of reference Batman uses in Arkham, and was otherwise a story about the creation of Two-Face intercut with the Holiday story, the comic is a lot cleaner and more coherent, and imparts the same overall idea. Hell, the idea of it being a Two-Face origin story more or less completely gets across it being a story about the change from organized crime to supervillainy. But all that other poo poo is just crowbarred in there, well, just cause. Honestly Jeph Loeb is the progenitor for the Rocksteady Batman games, which we can all agree are just...just loving terrible Batman stories. Just the absolute worst. They're fun, especially in the moment, but jeezer creezer do they take Loeb's kitchen sink approach to Batman storytelling and just turn every dial to 11.
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Dec 30, 2017 05:06
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Arkham Origins' story is dope actually. It only got slated because everyone was suffering Joker fatigue (but when aren't we, honestly?)
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Dec 30, 2017 05:12
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I just remember how fuckin' terrible the Arkham Knight storyline was. In a fuckin'...they made Jason MOTHER loving Todd worse. They took, one of the worst characters in DC Comics history, and Rocksteady made him loving WORSE. And then he becomes the Red Hood again anyways. Anyways!
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Dec 30, 2017 05:22
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Arkham Knight's Joker is one of the best takes on the character ever.
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Dec 30, 2017 05:23
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If you're talking about the head/psychology stuff I guess but I think Rocksteady gets way way way too close to trying to present Joker as an essential part of/dark half of/necessary to the functioning of Batman which is the worst and laziest way to present Joker ever.
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Dec 30, 2017 05:29
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Lick! The! Whisk! posted:If you're talking about the head/psychology stuff I guess but I think Rocksteady gets way way way too close to trying to present Joker as an essential part of/dark half of/necessary to the functioning of Batman which is the worst and laziest way to present Joker ever. I thought the ending essentially said that the Joker is far more obsessed with Batman than vice versa.
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Dec 30, 2017 05:39
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Lick! The! Whisk! posted:I mean I love The Rock, but even beyond that there's a lot of things in TLH that are just nonsensical. Why does like every single one of Batman's villains show up in it? And no, "because it takes place over a year and also the story is about how Gotham went from supercrime to supervillain crime" doesn't really count. That's the excuse Jeph Loeb uses to add the Joker and Poison Ivy and Scarecrow and the Riddler and Solomon Grundy into it, but it's not like the story is strengthened by their inclusion. If it had, like, the Riddler in it, and Calendar Man as the sort of point of reference Batman uses in Arkham, and was otherwise a story about the creation of Two-Face intercut with the Holiday story, the comic is a lot cleaner and more coherent, and imparts the same overall idea. Hell, the idea of it being a Two-Face origin story more or less completely gets across it being a story about the change from organized crime to supervillainy. But all that other poo poo is just crowbarred in there, well, just cause. Sometimes I just want a pizza with all the toppings.
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Dec 30, 2017 05:41
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I remember a burn that stuck with me when Hush was coming out, that it's super telling about comics that readers hail as a genius one of the writers of the movie Teen Wolf.
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Dec 30, 2017 11:44
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Long Halloween as the story of how the mob was consumed by the 'freaks' is also undercut because literally every single villain aside from Two Face is already not only active, but implied to have faced Batman at least once before. So based on the Catwoman and Falcone stuff it's only been a few weeks since Year One but in that time frame Joker, Riddler, Poison Ivy, the Scarecrow, Mad Hatter, etc have debuted and already established themselves. Even Calender Man has been around a while. But that's Loeb for you.
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Dec 30, 2017 14:37
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From memory the timing is such that Ivy has control of him for an entire month too. The funniest bit in Arkham Origins is that the story of the mob being replaced by the freaks is done in the most literal possible sense.
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Dec 30, 2017 15:23
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I harp on this a lot but I love that Jeph Loeb lamented on some old Wordballoon podcast how he had not one but TWO million dollar ideas for sequels to Long Halloween that unfortunately corporate red-tape and bickering put an end to. They're both just terrific ideas: The Long Halloween IV: a serial killer is murdering his way through New York City, and Batman must face all of Spider-Man's Rogues Gallery to find the culprit! The Long Halloween V: a serial killer is murdering his way through Gotham City, and it's up to.... Spider-Man(??!!?!?!?!?!??!?!?) to confront all of Batman's villains over the course of the year to find the true mastermind! This is pretty much all Jeph Loeb has in his pocket. He used to make fun of writers like Johns and Bendis for "wasting their time" on B/C list characters like Luke Cage and the Flash when A-List talent need to work on A-List characters, like he does. He pointed to the secret to a successful comic like his Hulk run, where in order to make Hulk "work" he added a murder mystery and then made sure that the book had guest appearances by Iron Man, Thor, Spider-Man, Wolverine, Punisher, Deadpool, a Superman/Batman pastiche, callbacks to other classic stories, etc. etc. etc. you know, that's how you get people interested in a less popular character. He was once asked to suggest how he could make Luke Cage "A-List" and he scoffed at the concept and then outlined a take where Power Man and Iron Fist were framed for murder and had to go on a world tour being chased by Wolverine and Spider-Man and Deadpool and Captain America and Thor trying to figure out if they had been framed by Doctor Doom or Venom or Kingpin or Skrulls or Magneto or Mister Sinister or etc. The whole "first comic that cribs a bunch of things together to make you think Batman and his universe are cool" is pretty apt, and literally the only thing he has in his quiver.
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Dec 30, 2017 15:30
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Wait who the gently caress was going to be Spider-man
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Dec 30, 2017 15:45
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Blockhouse posted:Wait who the gently caress was going to be Spider-man Peter Parker, presumably.
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Dec 30, 2017 15:52
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Lick! The! Whisk! posted:The most devious trick of Loeb comics is that they're not lovely when you read them, especially if you've never read a Batman comic before. If you've literally never read Batman before and you read, say, Hush for the first time you'll think it's the sickest poo poo ever, because it's got this "awesome" crazy brand new villain and every single iconic villain ever and Batman joking around with Robin and flirting with Catwoman and swordfighting in the desert and even a little bit of Batman fighting Superman and and and. Absolutely, if you just wanted to see Jim Lee drawing all kinds of cool poo poo and didn't really care about the story I guess Hush is fine. Taken as anything other than pure spectacle, it's a car-crash. Loeb's biggest problem, despite working in films, TV and comics for decades, is that he cannot structure a long-form story to save his life. I think he got away with it in Long Halloween because it was a noir pastiche, and those narratives have tended to be insanely convoluted by design, going all the way back to Chandler and Hammett. Hush however affords him no such excuses, and his sloppy approach to storytelling is laid bare. It's just incident piled on top of incident with only the flimsiest pretext of a mystery to tie them all together, until eventually the whole thing just falls to pieces in the final issue, which is basically the equivalent of Loeb shrugging and muttering, "Um...the Riddler did it? Maybe?" I was just reading about some of what he got up to at Marvel and realised I may've only seen the tip of a giant lovely iceberg. Loeb is seriously just terrible.
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Dec 30, 2017 16:17
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I just finished Arkham Knight and I agree with the other poster that the treatment of joker was great. He was funny and well acted, and the flashbacks were well done even if they were of moments that are already over familiar for most comic fans. I agree that the rest of the narrative wasn't amazing, and the ending was downright dissapointing for me. And yeah, they pack a few too many villains in and the set up for why there are so many hanging around feels rushed and flimsy, but we probably won't get another rocksteady Batman so I was happy I got to fight Pyg and red hood and the man bat. But I was tired of fighting penguin and the other regulars. Also the car thing was boring. If nothing else it's re-awakened my desire to read Batman comics so I'm catching up. Last thing I read was the Court of Owls.
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Dec 30, 2017 16:47
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Blockhouse posted:Wait who the gently caress was going to be Spider-man
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Dec 30, 2017 17:52
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Edge & Christian posted:I harp on this a lot but I love that Jeph Loeb lamented on some old Wordballoon podcast how he had not one but TWO million dollar ideas for sequels to Long Halloween that unfortunately corporate red-tape and bickering put an end to. They're both just terrific ideas: It would seem that Moon Girl & Devil Dinosaur's third trade refined this method in order to build out Lunella's world and personality while also fitting her into place among the grand scheme of Marvel groups/friendships. How would y'all compare Hush to Europa? I feel like Europa is a condensed version of Hush, but with less plot whiplash.
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Dec 30, 2017 18:36
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Edge & Christian posted:Back in the late 1990s when Long Halloween/Dark Victory were coming out, DC and Marvel had a working arrangement to do a number of cross-company books. Loeb's big money idea was to do two twelve issue mini-series, one that was "a murder mystery with Spider-Man vs. all of Batman's villains" and another that was "a murder mystery with Batman vs. all of Spider-Man's villains" because that is more or less the only idea that he has. Oh I thought you meant a spider-man analog not literal spider-man
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Dec 30, 2017 18:48
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Space Fish posted:It would seem that Moon Girl & Devil Dinosaur's third trade refined this method in order to build out Lunella's world and personality while also fitting her into place among the grand scheme of Marvel groups/friendships. Loeb's stories don't accomplish this because we already know how Batman interacts with Superman, Catwoman, Joker, Riddler, Two-Face, Robin, Nightwing, etc. etc. etc. There are hundreds of stories about these characters interacting, and none of the Loeb World Tour books add much to these relationships or give new insight into anyone. The other thing Loeb does is that his guest star list is based pretty much entirely on "what's going to sell", which leads to his runs featuring a bunch of guest stars based entirely on either "who his artist feels like drawing" or "whoever is hottest at the moment." Moon Girl's arc had a bunch of popular characters, but the main story purpose was "Lunella wants to prove she's the smartest person" so pretty much all of the guest stars played into that. If it were a Loeb story (aside from being a murder mystery) he wouldn't waste time with nobodies like MODOK or T'Challa who hasn't even had a movie yet, Lunella would be spending the whole arc trying to figure out who's smartest: Spider-Man, Deadpool, Starlord, Rocket Raccoon, Thanos, Jessica Jones, the Runaways, Age of Apocalypse Wolverine, Kylo Ren, etc.
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Dec 30, 2017 19:08
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Edge & Christian posted:Back in the late 1990s when Long Halloween/Dark Victory were coming out, DC and Marvel had a working arrangement to do a number of cross-company books. Loeb's big money idea was to do two twelve issue mini-series, one that was "a murder mystery with Spider-Man vs. all of Batman's villains" and another that was "a murder mystery with Batman vs. all of Spider-Man's villains" because that is more or less the only idea that he has. You're trying to make it sound like it wouldn't have been awesome. It would have been awesome. Spidey would be able to easily take on Batman's villains in a fist fight, but things are never that simple. Batman taking down Spider-Man's rogues in clever ways would be fun, and I'm sure he'd have a great rivalry with Norman Osborn in and out of costume.
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Dec 30, 2017 19:31
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Open Marriage Night posted:You're trying to make it sound like it wouldn't have been awesome. It would have been awesome. Spidey would be able to easily take on Batman's villains in a fist fight, but things are never that simple. Batman taking down Spider-Man's rogues in clever ways would be fun, and I'm sure he'd have a great rivalry with Norman Osborn in and out of costume. It's also an "awesome idea" on the literal smashing-action-figures-together-on-the-playground level that hardly merits any kudos.
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Dec 30, 2017 19:50
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