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Wheat Loaf posted:I don't know, because the Jedi who talks about midichlorians the most is Qui-Gon, who I think is portrayed as the Jedi who achieves the deepest understanding of the Force as indicated by his learning (and passing on to Yoda and Obi-Wan) how to return as a Force ghost. Qui-Gon is a scumbag. He's a bully. He cheats at dice. Free the slaves? Nah you're fine. Obi-Wan and Yoda are still idiot liars long after they meet Qui-Gon's ghost. He's a bad influence.
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Jan 1, 2018 21:50
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In Episode I the emphasis seems to be on midichlorians as living things that are part of a wider web of life, as Liam Neeson is always going on about nature and the balance of life and practices “the living force” that I guess he learned from Yoda and which Ewan McGregor needs more lessons in.
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Jan 1, 2018 21:50
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PostNouveau posted:The idea that the prequels show the Jedi as semi-bad guys is fan cannon retcon to justify liking a lovely batch of movies. The Jedi are clearly supposed to be righteous protectors of justice in the prequels, it's just that the movies are so incompetent that it come through clearly. They became arrogant and were blinded to the darkness creeping in around them. Luke literally says this in TLJ
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Jan 1, 2018 21:53
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Wheat Loaf posted:I don't know, because the Jedi who talks about midichlorians the most is Qui-Gon, who I think is portrayed as the Jedi who achieves the deepest understanding of the Force as indicated by his learning (and passing on to Yoda and Obi-Wan) how to return as a Force ghost. Qui-Gon is usually referred to one of the Jedi that's just a good dude who didn't buy into the Kool-Aid and stuff his head up his own rear end. So he probably would be an appropriate one to really have a deep understanding of the Force's true nature and stuff.
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Jan 1, 2018 21:53
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PostNouveau posted:The idea that the prequels show the Jedi as semi-bad guys is fan cannon retcon to justify liking a lovely batch of movies. The Jedi are clearly supposed to be righteous protectors of justice in the prequels, it's just that the movies are so incompetent that it come through clearly. I don't ascribe to the idea that they are semi-bad guys but I think they're essentially well-meaning people who are tricked and betrayed when Palpatine took advantage of the blind spots in their worldview. Granted, maybe this is because I read too much EU stuff when I was younger which made a big deal out of Qui-Gon's philosophical differences with the Jedi Council (he lives in the moment and lets the Force guide him, which is why he's determined to train Anakin even though the Council is right that it would be potentially dangerous to do so, whereas the Council concentrates on the big picture and tries to use the Force to influence it for the good, the result being that they can't see the trees for the forest) and that's coloured my perception of the movies all this time.
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Jan 1, 2018 21:55
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El Burbo posted:They became arrogant and were blinded to the darkness creeping in around them. Luke literally says this in TLJ Oh yeah, then it's an official retcon.
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Jan 1, 2018 21:57
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Gatts posted:Qui-Gon is usually referred to one of the Jedi that's just a good dude who didn't buy into the Kool-Aid and stuff his head up his own rear end. So he probably would be an appropriate one to really have a deep understanding of the Force's true nature and stuff. Obi-Wan senses something wrong with the Naboo situation two minutes in, but Qui-Gon tells him to keep his trap shut as it's not important. How do people read Qui-Gon as the smart, in-touch guy in that film?
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Jan 1, 2018 21:57
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Wheat Loaf posted:What do people think - is watching in numerical order better or is release order better? Release order. PostNouveau posted:The idea that the prequels show the Jedi as semi-bad guys is fan cannon retcon to justify liking a lovely batch of movies. The Jedi are clearly supposed to be righteous protectors of justice in the prequels, it's just that the movies are so incompetent that it come through clearly. What you're saying here is that the movie gave you an idea (that the Jedi are bad), but it was not the idea you expected it to gave you (that the Jedi are good), and therefore the movie is the thing that is wrong.
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Jan 1, 2018 22:00
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sassassin posted:Obi-Wan senses something wrong with the Naboo situation two minutes in, but Qui-Gon tells him to keep his trap shut as it's not important. How do people read Qui-Gon as the smart, in-touch guy in that film? Rifftrax put it best regarding Qui-Gon Jinn. "He looks and talks like the guy the other Jedi buy their weed from."
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Jan 1, 2018 22:01
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Seeing Obi-Wan being trained badly is part of what makes his future relationship with Anakin so interesting/tragic. He's dropped into an awful situation by his idiot master's dying wish, and hasn't any of the tools to handle it properly. Dooku is right that Qui-Gon would have followed him to the darkside, wide-eyed stupid until the moment he got decapitated.
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Jan 1, 2018 22:03
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Bongo Bill posted:What you're saying here is that the movie gave you an idea (that the Jedi are bad), but it was not the idea you expected it to gave you (that the Jedi are good), and therefore the movie is the thing that is wrong. Nah the Jedi constantly do heroic things. The "oh maybe the Jedi are bad and that's why they get their asses kicked" wasn't prevalent in the immediate aftermath of the prequels. It's a justification invented years later. The prequels are just so muddled and incompetent that you can staple whatever interpretation you want onto them.
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Jan 1, 2018 22:04
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PostNouveau posted:Oh yeah, then it's an official retcon. The retcon happened in ESB.
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Jan 1, 2018 22:04
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The midichlorians are, among other things, another instance of symbiosis in The Phantom Menace. This is a theme that runs throughout the whole movie, of duality and cooperation. Two Jedi, two Sith. "The problem with the universe is nobody helps anybody." The people of Naboo- humans and Gungans alike- only manage to free themselves when the Queen decides to work with Boss Nass, even bowing to him. (I've heard that in an early draft Amidala was more overtly prejudiced against the Gungans, to the point of not wanting one on her ship, but I guess Lucas feared this would make her too unsympathetic. But you can still see some of her progression.) A key moment in the podrace is Anakin transferring power from one pod to another, which results in both roaring to life. It's a pattern. The midichlorians, specifically, are said to exist in ALL living cells. "Without them, life could not exist." Our existence is dependent on a symbiont relationship with a lifeform we can't even see and don't even know exists. Anakin having a bunch of midichlorians certainly marks him as different and it explains why some family lines are particularly strong with the Force, but beyond that it's not like there's an obvious hierarchy- we don't see anyone being rejected for their low midi count or anything like that. Indeed the rest of the Jedi aren't really bowled over by Anakin having a bunch of 'em- it's notable, he's got potential, but they know there are other factors.
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Jan 1, 2018 22:05
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PostNouveau posted:The idea that the prequels show the Jedi as semi-bad guys is fan cannon retcon to justify liking a lovely batch of movies. The Jedi are clearly supposed to be righteous protectors of justice in the prequels, it's just that the movies are so incompetent that it come through clearly. Yeeep.
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Jan 1, 2018 22:11
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PostNouveau posted:The idea that the prequels show the Jedi as semi-bad guys is fan cannon retcon to justify liking a lovely batch of movies. The Jedi are clearly supposed to be righteous protectors of justice in the prequels, it's just that the movies are so incompetent that it didn't come through clearly. So you are saying that the entire story of the Jedi failing to recognize evil right on their doorstep was entirely by accident. Like we're not talking about a few carelessly written lines or some unfortunate editing. You are saying that the literal story of what happens is something Lucas did not mean to make. This is sort of like arguing the makers of Godzilla set out to make a lighthearted adventure movie and accidentally ended up with a Hiroshima allegory.
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Jan 1, 2018 22:18
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PostNouveau posted:The idea that the prequels show the Jedi as semi-bad guys is fan cannon retcon to justify liking a lovely batch of movies. The Jedi are clearly supposed to be righteous protectors of justice in the prequels, it's just that the movies are so incompetent that it didn't come through clearly. lol at the idea that Lucas would even write that intentionally.
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Jan 1, 2018 22:22
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Maxwell Lord posted:So you are saying that the entire story of the Jedi failing to recognize evil right on their doorstep was entirely by accident. They are undone by the evil machinations of the villain who is clouding their view of the force and by Anakin's treachery, but not because their philosophy is flawed or they're complicit enforcers of a corrupt regime. They save the day repeatedly and are portrayed as super wise and courageous fighters for justice. It was like, five years after RotS before people started talking about that stuff, and the prequels are poorly written enough that you can go back through and find inconsistencies to bolster those arguments, but it's obviously not the goal of the text.
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Jan 1, 2018 22:25
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Maxwell Lord posted:So you are saying that the entire story of the Jedi failing to recognize evil right on their doorstep was entirely by accident. They're not presented as being up their own asses for missing Anakin though, it's just supposed to be an unfortunate mistake from the well-intentioned jedi knights helped along by Palpatine's brilliance.
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Jan 1, 2018 22:26
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It also doesn't help that the ultimate ending for the prequels was written with ANH with Anakin becoming Vader, the Emperor is in Power, all of the Jedi are dead. Lucas had to figure out a backstory for all this poo poo and the way he did it was to make all of the Jedi incompetent idiots that continuously gently caress up to make said things happen.
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Jan 1, 2018 22:30
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PostNouveau posted:They are undone by the evil machinations of the villain who is clouding their view of the force and by Anakin's treachery, but not because their philosophy is flawed or they're complicit enforcers of a corrupt regime. They save the day repeatedly and are portrayed as super wise and courageous fighters for justice. The Jedi never save the day. They help a government negotiate a tax hike, instigate a war, and commit a coup.
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Jan 1, 2018 22:34
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Jeb! Repetition posted:supposed to Found the problem. Expectations ruin movies. When you approach art, you should focus on what it is saying, not on what you're listening for. From somewhere you acquired the idea that it would tell the story of the noble Jedi being defeated by evil, and when instead you saw a story of the corrupt Jedi sowing the seeds of their own destruction while evil took advantage, you called it incoherent. It's like seeing a cat and calling it a lovely dog.
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Jan 1, 2018 22:37
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Schwarzwald posted:The Jedi never save the day. They help a government negotiate a tax hike, instigate a war, and commit a coup. They save the queen and end a blockade of an innocent planet, sweep in with an army to rescue the protagonists facing execution, and fight the ultimate evil to the bitter end.
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Jan 1, 2018 22:37
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PostNouveau posted:They save the queen and end a blockade of an innocent planet, sweep in with an army to rescue the protagonists facing execution, and fight the ultimate evil to the bitter end. You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.
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Jan 1, 2018 22:39
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Neo Rasa posted:Rifftrax put it best regarding Qui-Gon Jinn. "He looks and talks like the guy the other Jedi buy their weed from." LOL okay that is a point.
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Jan 1, 2018 22:42
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Bongo Bill posted:You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. That's true, but the "from my view, the Jedi are the bad guys" comes out of the mouth of Darth Vader, so maybe that's not really the point of view of the film. Seriously, was anyone saying this poo poo right after the movies came out? Someone wrote a contrarian think piece in like 2010 that was like "Oh, what if the Jedi are the bad guys?" and all the prequel fans grabbed onto it so they could pretend the prequels aren't just a giant mess.
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Jan 1, 2018 22:42
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PostNouveau posted:Seriously, was anyone saying this poo poo right after the movies came out? Yes. Of course. Lots of people.
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Jan 1, 2018 22:43
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PostNouveau posted:That's true, but the "from my view, the Jedi are the bad guys" comes out of the mouth of Darth Vader, so maybe that's not really the point of view of the film. "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" comes out of the mouth of Jedi paragon Obi-Wan Kenobi in the same conversation.
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Jan 1, 2018 22:45
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Mr. Ex posted:Regardless of the writing being good or not, it's a Star Wars movie. It sells itself. No movie sells itself, as the recent failure of JL should prove. It has Superman and Batman and Wonder Woman andsomeotherpeople, they are some of the most well known and beloved superheroes going.....and it made less than loving Thor 3. By a fairly convincing margin at that. Success is never assured, no matter what the movie is.
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Jan 1, 2018 22:48
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Bongo Bill posted:Found the problem.
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Jan 1, 2018 22:50
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PostNouveau posted:That's true, but the "from my view, the Jedi are the bad guys" comes out of the mouth of Darth Vader, so maybe that's not really the point of view of the film. I was referring to the events of the films that you referred to. Your post represents a point of view. Schwarzwald's post represents another one. All this stuff is there to be seen. The prequels begin with a movie in which the bad guy gets everything he wants and throws himself a parade, continues with a movie in which the self-proclaimed guardians of peace and justice start a war despite saying that they can't fight a war, and concludes with a movie in which a monastic order with a dogma of non-attachment undertakes a plot against the government they attached themselves to. A major recurring theme is the failure of the Jedi to live up to their own ideals. They frequently antagonize the main character even though they are not the Red Team, and they are closely involved in the transformation of the Republic into the Empire.
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Jan 1, 2018 22:53
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I think saying that the film portrays them as super wise and committed to justice omits the reality which is that people desire and expect them to be that, the shape of the story they are used to would fit it. But Star Wars isn't shaped usually and inevitably flouts such expectations: it's somewhat cyclical in structure, and gradually people are starting to realise it, each trilogy representing period of time comprising half a turning of fortune's wheel (the PT, or descent into hell, between the OT and the ST is implied, for now). Thus the situation is partly created through their own hubris. The prequels are tragedic as a unit! Hubris traditionally plays a big part in tragedy if you didn't know (hence why Luke goes on about it in TLJ, and it's an otherwise odd addition to the Star Wars vocabulary I feel) Star Wars is essentially Arthurian (though not as good) in that every victory for the Jedi/Rebels/Empire is tinged with their hubris and eventual failure in the future, every attempt to impose order creates a new territory where monsters lie, and in the case of the Jedi it was their adherence to a contradictory code of ethics that brought this about. Disappointingly there's not as much adultery in Star Wars. Snoke should have had a wife who falls in love with Kylo Ren, bringing about the downfall of the First Order. Alas the Resistance will likely shoot it to death
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Jan 1, 2018 22:57
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Bongo Bill posted:The prequels begin with a movie in which the bad guy gets everything he wants and throws himself a parade, continues with a movie in which the self-proclaimed guardians of peace and justice start a war despite saying that they can't fight a war, and concludes with a movie in which a monastic order with a dogma of non-attachment undertakes a plot against the government they attached themselves to. Ehhhh, Dooku starts the war by capturing and trying to execute a senator and two Jedi. And framing the Jedi trying to stop Sidious as a coup is just a way to make it seem like a bad move. Of course they should try to stop him.
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Jan 1, 2018 23:08
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It’s an ambitious story that George Lucas didn’t have the skills to pull off well, and probably it’s too crazy to ever be pulled off well. It’s just a huge leap away from Star Wars into a completely different kind of storytelling, but also with poop jokes and silly slapstick and 50s diners and stilted dialogue with wooden delivery that grinds to a halt every so often for a big special effects showcase. The guy just has no sense of what’s feasible or of what can fit in one movie. His whole career was other people stepping in to coach him back toward something sane, right up until he decided to use his personal fortune to eliminate any need to compromise. He reminds me of Dan Akroyd. The Disney ones might end up being received poorly, but they’re made by people who at least understand they have to abide by some of the rules they learned in screenwriting 101.
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Jan 1, 2018 23:11
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PostNouveau posted:And framing the Jedi trying to stop Sidious as a coup is just a way to make it seem like a bad move. Of course they should try to stop him. Sheev Palpatine was the democratically elected leader of the Republic senate. You can't rebel against the president just because of his religion.
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Jan 1, 2018 23:12
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J_RBG posted:...saying that the film portrays them as super wise and committed to justice... PostNouveau is not articulating his complaints very well. What he actually means is that the portrayal of the Jedi as violent and unjust contradicts the expository dialogue. And he places far more weight on what he is told than on what he sees with his own eyes. A basic example: we are told that the Jedi are “guardians of peace and justice, for over a thousand generations, before the dark times”. However, we are shown that the Jedi own slaves. (Note: slavery is both violent and unjust.) PostNoveau’s weird conclusion is that characters like R2-D2, and the entire clone army, must exist in the films by accident.
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Jan 1, 2018 23:13
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sassassin posted:Sheev Palpatine was the democratically elected leader of the Republic senate. You can't rebel against the president just because of his religion. He declares himself emperor. You can absolutely morally overthrow a dude who's throwing the galactic government out the window.
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Jan 1, 2018 23:15
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"The Jedi were kind of poo poo" is a central theme to 6/8 Star Wars films. But apparently that's just an idea from a 2010 think-piece we're all parroting.
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Jan 1, 2018 23:17
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J_RBG posted:Disappointingly there's not as much adultery in Star Wars. Not in actuality, but Anakin does accuse Obi-wan of it! PostNouveau posted:Ehhhh, Dooku starts the war by capturing and trying to execute a senator and two Jedi. And framing the Jedi trying to stop Sidious as a coup is just a way to make it seem like a bad move. Of course they should try to stop him. What word should we use to describe the Jedi's attempt to violently and illegally seize control of the government? For their part, Mace Windu says that (seizing power) "could be a dangerous move" and Yoda says "To a dark place this line of thought will carry us." They're fully aware of what they're doing, and they do so regardless. "First Jedi rule: 'Survive.'"
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Jan 1, 2018 23:17
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PostNouveau posted:He declares himself emperor. You can absolutely morally overthrow a dude who's throwing the galactic government out the window. He didn't declare himself emperor until after that, though in AOTC there's some dialogue where Obi-Wan mentions that he'd stayed in office after his constitutional term limit had expired by relying on special emergency powers. The novelisation actually had an extended conversation between Palpatine and the Jedi who showed up to arrest him where he outright says, "So maybe I am a Sith Lord, but you can't just arrest me because of my religious beliefs." Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Jan 1, 2018 |
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Jan 1, 2018 23:18
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PostNouveau posted:He declares himself emperor. You can absolutely morally overthrow a dude who's throwing the galactic government out the window. He does this after the attempted coup. And his declaration is met with sincere applause on the senate floor. The Jedi are traitors to the common will of the Republic.
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Jan 1, 2018 23:19
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