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admanb posted:The best PbtA D&D hack is Blades Against Darkness, because the core of Blades in the Dark is much better suited to hacking into D&D than AW ever was.
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Dec 27, 2017 20:41
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JackMann posted:Depends on which version of D&D. That's more true of 3.5/Pathfinder, for example, but older versions of D&D really didn't have any way of making cool characters. You had your class, but that was basically it as far as interesting choices in character creation. The answer may be "you don't". PBTA is cool and it's tempting to try and push all the other gaming you'd like to do into its format, but it isn't a catchall. Probably for the old school D&D format it'd be easier to just either use an existing system designed for that (Torchbearer, say) or tweak one if nothing quite fits the feel you're going for.
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Dec 27, 2017 22:20
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How do people like Inverse World? I am looking at running a PbtA oneshot with some friends who are hardcore D&D purists and I think loving around on a floating island could be fun, but have no idea if it works well as something that modified DW.
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Dec 28, 2017 02:49
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Quidthulhu posted:How do people like Inverse World? I am looking at running a PbtA oneshot with some friends who are hardcore D&D purists and I think loving around on a floating island could be fun, but have no idea if it works well as something that modified DW. It has some incredible playbooks. It's a little light on setting details - expect to do a lot of fleshing out on your own if you want to run it.
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Dec 28, 2017 02:52
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A thing I find peculiar about doing D&D in PBTA is that PBTA is made to follow the format of an ensemble TV show where each character has their own thing going on, they're working together (or not) but not always literally in the same room. I think that's a major step forward in design, so it's odd to turn that around and apply it to a game that, while it can be very narrative, has those tactical wargame roots.
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Dec 28, 2017 03:57
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Just looking for, like, a test of the waters here... If I were to pitch a game as a "Crunchy PbtA", would you be intrigued, or immediately turned off?
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Dec 28, 2017 09:34
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Turned off, as it sounds like a prime territory for not understanding the engine. That said, it can be pulled off - in a way, one could argue Blades in the Dark is essentially a crunchy PbtA game.
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Dec 28, 2017 09:37
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open_sketchbook posted:Just looking for, like, a test of the waters here... If I were to pitch a game as a "Crunchy PbtA", would you be intrigued, or immediately turned off? Intrigued, I think. Mostly because it tells me you're aware of the weight of the rules, which tends to be a good sign. There's definitely room for a range in weights with pbta: I'd say AW is actually on the crunchy end, especially 2e with its battle moves, chase moves, etc, while Bluebeard's Bride or Murderous Ghosts are at the very light end.
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Dec 28, 2017 12:13
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I want to make a Swashbuckling fantasy adventure game from an PbtA base. Think equal parts Dumas, Steven Brust and Michael Moorcock. I want high renaissance fantasy with steampunk gadgets and hermetic magic. I want players pursuing illicit love affairs with the same fervor they pursue XP. I want my players facing off against clockwork cyborgs on burning dirigibles floating over the Palais Royale, frantically trying to hinder a plot to blow up the Queen I don't feel confident in my ability to make such a game. Can anyone give me recommendations on 1) the theory behind PbtA, and how to shape it into what I want without making beginner mistakes, and 2) any examples of games in that genre already using PbtA or which are just good examples of how to handle romantic Three Musketeers antics in a fantasy world?
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Dec 28, 2017 14:15
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1) Go read endless goon bitching on Dungeon World, to avoid the most common mistakes done by misunderstanding the AW engine and it's purpose. I'd also check out the goon-made Malleus - a goon-made gothic horor hack. While it's not exactly what you're going for, I think it'll be useful to see how to twist AW into something more adventure-actiony, while keeping the genre/narrative at the forefront. Also, since it's set in XVII-XVIII century you might find it useful to steal some weapon tags or something. 2) Not PbtA, but read Spellbound Kingdoms if you haven't done so already - either the real thing or the fatal & friends writeup. It's swashbuckler as gently caress and chock-full of fresh ideas, fantasy, romance and all that good stuff. Definitely look up how this game's concepts of magic and Mood work to put genre trappings in overdrive. Lichtenstein fucked around with this message at 14:57 on Dec 28, 2017 |
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Dec 28, 2017 14:50
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open_sketchbook posted:Just looking for, like, a test of the waters here... If I were to pitch a game as a "Crunchy PbtA", would you be intrigued, or immediately turned off? Furthermore, it must be remembered that as a story-based game, the rules in (good) PbtA games serve to direct the narrative, not model any kind of reality. I generally equate "crunch" with "simulation," but "simulation" is almost diametrically opposed to how (good) PbtA games work. The result of any given move in Apocalypse World doesn't tell you anything about the world's physics or verisimilitude, it tells you what happens next.
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Dec 28, 2017 15:19
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open_sketchbook posted:Just looking for, like, a test of the waters here... If I were to pitch a game as a "Crunchy PbtA", would you be intrigued, or immediately turned off? It would depend on what the system is for. As mentioned AW could be considered "crunchy" and I'm down for it, but something like "crunchy Monsterhearts" would make me hesitant.
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Dec 28, 2017 15:32
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Im also intrested in this since I want to run either run a very well made crunchy rpg or a rules light that still hits that skinner box gold and xp rewards. Wanna wean my group off the hell that is 5e (Incidentally where is the system recommendation thread)
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Dec 28, 2017 15:38
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Battle Mad Ronin posted:I want to make a Swashbuckling fantasy adventure game from an PbtA base. Think equal parts Dumas, Steven Brust and Michael Moorcock. Battle Mad Ronin posted:I don't feel confident in my ability to make such a game. Can anyone give me recommendations on 1) the theory behind PbtA, and how to shape it into what I want without making beginner mistakes, and 2) any examples of games in that genre already using PbtA or which are just good examples of how to handle romantic Three Musketeers antics in a fantasy world? As general principles, I'd keep the following in mind: 1) As mentioned in my previous post, the PbtA engine really shines when the moves directly interface with the story, and do not simulate any kind of "reality" (verisimilitudinous or no). How wide is the chasm? Well, if you rolled a 10+, it was narrow enough to jump it without breaking a sweat. Rolled a 7-9, things have not gone precisely as planned. If you rolled a 6-, I guess it was wider than it looked. You should never be counting hexes or squares and cross-referencing Move or Strength scores or whatever, because that's not what the engine is about. 2) Good PbtA games have attributes that are abstract rather than direct, measurable quantities. Really good ones have attributes that are both evocative and complex. It's the difference between "Comeliness" (how physically attractive you are) and "Hot" (which is simultaneously a mixture of your personability, general attractiveness, grace in social situations, and how manipulative you are. You can be dog-ugly and still be "Hot." This is one of the consistent ways in which goons bitch about Dungeon World - by keeping the D&D trope attributes, DW pulls people back into that character "quantification" mindset. Conversely, AW's "Weird" is a loving fantastic stat, and I will fight anyone who says otherwise. 3) Speaking of attributes, don't have too many or too few. When it comes to making playbooks, each playbook will generally have one "primary" attribute, so if you have too few attributes the playbooks will tend to be kind of samey, and you'll need to work a lot harder on the playbook moves to distinguish them. If you have too many, it's more likely that players will have attributes they never need or use. 4) Good PbtA games have a solid set of basic moves that do two important things: they reinforce the theme/genre, and they cover the vast majority of the stuff that the players are going to want their characters to do during the session. The playbook moves should be icing on the cake, not critical to the character being able to function at all. AW2 has 8 basic moves, 2 battle moves, 3 support moves, and 2 barter moves. 90+% of the time, what you're going to want to do will be covered by just the 8 basic and 2 battle moves. There's some other stuff thrown in there for flavor (the 5 subterfuge moves and the 5 road-war moves), but frankly you could dragoon other basic moves into their places without losing much (e.g. you could easily use the basic move act under fire in place of the board a moving vehicle road-war move, which uses the same attribute and general structure). 5) Pay very special attention to the triggers for your moves. Make them specific - it should be pretty easy to tell when a move is being triggered - but more broadly applied for the basic moves, more tightly-scoped for the playbook moves. So think hard about what it is that your PCs will be doing, and tailor your game to that. So for instance, your crazy renaissance-hermetic-steampunk-swashbuckling-god-save-the-queen game sounds like one in which rank and title might be important. So to help support that, you might have an attribute called "Station." Further, that's the attribute you'd use when you make the basic move pull rank. It might also be the attribute used for the Socialite's playbook move host a soiree. These ideas hew pretty closely to the core mechanics of Apocalypse World. If you want to get away from that basic structure (2D6+attribute generating 6-, 7-9, or 10+; character roles and abilities defined by moves, results of moves serving to drive story directly) then the world is your oyster but you're looking at a lot more work. Ilor fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Dec 28, 2017 |
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Dec 28, 2017 16:21
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Ilor posted:So think hard about what it is that your PCs will be doing, and tailor your game to that. This is vital, and it's something a lot of hacks miss out on. A really good genre game is a work of literary or film criticism. You don't have to show all that work to the reader, but if you dive deep into your source material, take some notes on why you're loving it, and feed that knowledge back into to your GM principles, attributes, moves, and playbooks, it will do wonders for your chances of making something good.
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Dec 28, 2017 16:46
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potatocubed posted:I think Ewen Cluney's actually writing that as we speak. https://twitter.com/nekoewen/status/946084915883286528 https://twitter.com/nekoewen/status/930909267019800576 https://twitter.com/nekoewen/status/928393145548554240
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Dec 28, 2017 16:54
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Ewen Cluney posted:It's called The DnD Zone, and it's very silly and has lots of random tables. It's about ready to start playtesting, and I'm hoping that (1) the conceit of playing gamers playing a game isn't hopelessly confusing in practice and (2) the moves for stuff like arguing with the DM don't make the game unpleasant to play. That looks amazing. NPC last names are missing "Loblaw" for the potential NPC "Bob Loblaw."
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Dec 28, 2017 16:59
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Battle Mad Ronin posted:I want to make a Swashbuckling fantasy adventure game from an PbtA base. Think equal parts Dumas, Steven Brust and Michael Moorcock. This sounds like the floating islands and swashbuckling playbooks of Inverse World. Theres a golem class!
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Dec 28, 2017 20:47
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Lichtenstein posted:1) Go read endless goon bitching on Dungeon World, to avoid the most common mistakes done by misunderstanding the AW engine and it's purpose Thanks for the link, I'll check it out in the morning. I did actually read Mallus some months ago and half-remember it as very inspirational. Ilor posted:Whatever you figure out, let me know because I would love to play that game. Thanks, and thanks for the run-down on PbtA theory. I've only ever played DW and it was an inspiration, though it did have a number of hurdles I got rather tired of rather quickly. One of the reasons I want to write my own hack is to handle some of the issues I had with DW, with all due respect to that system. Quidthulhu posted:This sounds like the floating islands and swashbuckling playbooks of Inverse World. There’s a golem class! I can see that I will have to compose a reading list. Thank you for the recommendation. Having got to work my initial thoughts on attributes and classes, at a very rough state, looks like this: Attributes - Station: Your social status, general reflection of relative position in society - Grace: Your ability to act with precision and timing <-- strikes me as too much of dexterity under a different name, something I wanted to move away from. - Valor: Acts of courage and cool headedness under fire - Charm: Social skill and interaction in polite society - Ingenuity: World wisdom and academic learning, logical problem solving Playbooks Doctor: At the frontier of medical knowledge and half-forbidden learning Main attribute: Ingenuity Soldier: For the queen Main attribute: Valor, Station Scholar: Discovery and creation Main Attribute: Ingenuity, Station Bravo: Young, brash and full of life Main attribute: Grace, Valor Scoundrel: Find solutions and make a dime doing it Main attribute: Charm, Grace Socialite: An artiste or dilettante, wise in the ways of women and men Main attribute: Station, Charm Magister: Wonder worker of the esoteric arts Main attribute: Ingenuity, Charm Trailblazer: A man or woman of the wilds, explorer of the unknown Main attribute: Grace, Ingenuity Sailor/Aircrew: Explorer of oceans and skies Main attributes: Station, Grace (if there is a designated thread for vanity projects this would fit better there) Battle Mad Ronin fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Dec 28, 2017 |
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Dec 28, 2017 23:28
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Lichtenstein posted:
If it is of any help or interest, the latest draft of the rules is here. The updated playbooks are here. I'm finally back to playtesting it, so a few fairly minor changes are incoming.
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Dec 29, 2017 00:05
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thefakenews posted:I'm finally back to playtesting it, so a few fairly minor changes are incoming. This is gold, much appreciated! Do you need playertesters? If so I'd love to try out Mallus.
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Dec 29, 2017 18:10
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Battle Mad Ronin posted:Attributes While by no means an expert in pbta hacks, I think you have both some missing aspects and some overlap here. Valor seems like a catch-all for basically any heroics, whereas station, grace and charm seem to completely overlap. I do like the idea of "station" as a stat. Do you want the story to be more about what people are , what people are perceived to be or what people do? This should influence your stat choices. You can make an artistic statement if being, perception and acts are connected or completely unrelated. E.g. I'd roll station, grace and charm into one. If you want someone who is highborn to be considered all three of these, that's very renaissance-y. Conversely I'd maybe then consider turning Valor into something more Brute-ish, with poor social standing but perhaps good martial prowess in dirty fights. Ingenuity seems fine, maybe could be changed to pure "scholarly" as it could mean both a clergy-like reputation as well as your character actually knowing what to do. If you want to make a hard split between religious knowledge and material knowledge, or between religion and magic, you could consider that, but do know that they should be meaningful distinctions that cause conflict of sorts. If you go for the distinction, religion (or lack thereof) would probably play a more important role to a character's identity than if you roll them into one. Personally, I would think of stats along these lines: Noblesse: a combination of elegance and social station Brutishness: a combination of poor social standing, ruggedness and general grit And then two more. I think, considering the hermetic gadgets and magic you mentioned, you could go with a hard divide along those lines. Craftiness? as a combination of guile and mechanical know-how about gadgets, machinery and other crafts you can learn. Would work for both a mad inventor as well as a thief who knows his way around lockpicks and clockworks. Weirdness/mysticism? For all your magic, religious and general "weird" needs. Of course you don't have to take these into account, they're just suggestions and examples of me thinking out loud. You could also take inspiration from how FATE Accelerated does things: its stats aren't what you do, but how you do it. They have stats like sneaky, flashy... etc. where theoretically anybody could do anything provided they can justify doing it in a particular way. If romance is a big part of what you want to add to the game, think of all the ways these stats/reputations/acts could help or hinder your character, and ensure that one stat isn't de facto required if you want to be involved in the romance side of the game. E.g. any hypothetical romance mechanic should have ways for your playbooks to gain or lose affection with their base stat, but perhaps with different people? Like some NPCs could really like a brutish bad boy character and others react badly to it? No idea how involved you want this to be. I'm a huge fan of the strings mechanic in monsterhearts because it's a great synergy between game and fiction. Everyone wants to gain leverage on others and make others lose leverage on themselves, and the game moves reinforce the fact that acting like a lovely teenager in high school is the way to reach these objectives. While this might not be the tone you're looking for, think about "how do I want to simulate the romance aspect of the genre I'm emulating?" and then think "okay, how do I make my moves in such a way that the players are naturally inclined to act like characters in that fiction"? So e.g. a noble knight, perhaps old-fashioned, could publicly designate a person they seek to court with all the ramifications ensuing, as a playbook-specific way to gather affection or whatever mechanic you think of. EDIT: also consider the way sex moves work in apocalypse world and monsterhearts. Perhaps a more genre-appropriate move like public declarations of love or w/e could have a similar high-risk/high-reward system, with players trying to maneuver towards them without risking public shame, or without giving leverage to the target of their affection or bystanders? Deltasquid fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Dec 29, 2017 |
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Dec 29, 2017 19:35
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I'd love for Grace to be actually grace - being both dexterous and courtly. 7th Sea had great stat nouns: Brawn, Finesse, Resolve, Wits, Panache. Of these, Wits seems particularly PbTA friendly, as it could work for any combination of read a sitch, act under pressure and +weird not covered by other stats. Cortex+ Hacking Guide also had a nice set for some swashbuckling action: Bravado, Conviction, Guile, Reason and Vigor. This is actually close to what Apocalypse World did, where the attributes didn't really describe the characters themselves as much as their attitudes.
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Dec 29, 2017 20:18
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For me, the issue with Dungeon World's stats is that by keeping the classic D&D names, you have two issues. One, you have the fact that they've never really been well differentiated from each other. Two, they're about the character's inherent qualities. Good PbtA stats are about the intent and concept behind an action. A wizard should be using the same stat for blasting things willy-nilly with fireballs as a fighter uses for bashing things with a hammer. So I'd go with: Might: Victory via brute force and ruthless action. Finesse: Victory via the precise application of effort and skill. Cunning: Victory via clever exploits and quick thinking. Insight: Victory via planning and learned knowledge. Presence: Victory via sheer force of will and charm. If you really wanted, Fortitude: Victory via endurance and courage in the face of adversity. could give you the classic six stats, though I think its too fine a distinction with Might and potentially Presence. You can make a clear analogues with D&D stats, but they're much more about approach than intrinsic character qualities. That makes them simultaneously more distinct from each other, and more broadly usable by all character concepts.
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Dec 29, 2017 22:51
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Somewhat relevant to the current conversation, I've been putting together a game inspired by Castlevania, Bloodborne and JoJo - Legacy: Rhapsody of Blood. In it, players are explorers diving into the depths of a nightmare castle invading our reality, trying to track down and stop its mad regent before they blight the mortal world. I wanted it to focus equally on castle exploration, boss fights, and the support given by each player's faction, so each of those has their own set of basic moves. I'm particularly interested by what people think of the boss fight rules - inspired by Masks and Titan World, you don't do damage to bosses. Instead, a boss has 3 major qualities, with each giving the GM a few threat moves to use. For example, a Mighty Cleaver might give you the moves 'Shatter their weapon' and 'Smash the environment'. To fight the boss, players identify openings in the boss' fighting style, try to use those openings to strike, and if successful destroy one of those qualities. When all of the qualities are dead, the boss is defeated. I've enjoyed how it flowed in playtests so far - it basically codifies and supports that 16 HP dragon thing that people always discuss in Dungeon World, while making sure every character has some way of contributing. If you're interested in giving it a shot, current playbooks are here.
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Dec 29, 2017 23:34
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Speaking of Masks, the Soldier, Brain, and Harbinger playtest playbooks have recently released. Was kind of surprised nobody mentioned that! But anyway, that sounds really interesting, Flavivirus. Are you planning some sort of public playtests on SA in the future? I'd love to get in on one of those!
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Dec 29, 2017 23:42
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I was actually considering doing some proof of concept for a game that's basically Dungeon World except more pbta. I'm not entirely sure which kind of themes I'd like to touch upon, but certainly a big part of it should be character dynamics and the dungeon as a living, breathing antagonistic force, where the cast has to actively overcome their failures as broken human beings to get out alive. Kind of darkest dungeon + apocalypse world-ish, I suppose? EDIT: I love jojo and would be down to playtest that rhapsody of blood game Deltasquid fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Dec 30, 2017 |
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Dec 30, 2017 00:46
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Thanks everyone for the input. Its too overwhelming to digest and reply to everything at once, but I am happy to see so much inspiration and thougthful advice.Deltasquid posted:Kind of darkest dungeon + apocalypse world-ish, I suppose? Speaking as someone who has put 200+ hours into Darkest Dungeon that sounds dope as hell.
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Dec 30, 2017 01:06
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Flavivirus posted:Somewhat relevant to the current conversation, I've been putting together a game inspired by Castlevania, Bloodborne and JoJo - Legacy: Rhapsody of Blood. In it, players are explorers diving into the depths of a nightmare castle invading our reality, trying to track down and stop its mad regent before they blight the mortal world. hook me up for those playtests!
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Dec 30, 2017 05:13
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Same, looks sweet.
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Dec 30, 2017 06:37
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Battle Mad Ronin posted:I want to make a Swashbuckling fantasy adventure game from an PbtA base. Think equal parts Dumas, Steven Brust and Michael Moorcock. You might also be interested in Honor + Intrigue if you want a swashbuckling adventure game to look into. The default setting is assumed to be 17th century Europe, but there's plenty of rules for variants and hacks. It's based on the Barbarians of Lemuria rules instead of PbtA, but it's another system where you roll 2d6 and is generally on the lighter side like PbtA games. I picked it up a while ago and it's definitely got some neat ideas like an interesting dueling system and social combat rules for those moments you'll be trading verbal barbs at the gala.
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Dec 30, 2017 06:48
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DoctorWhat posted:hook me up for those playtests! Cool stuff, I'll look into posting a recruitment thread.
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Dec 30, 2017 07:28
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Flavivirus posted:Somewhat relevant to the current conversation, I've been putting together a game inspired by Castlevania, Bloodborne and JoJo - Legacy: Rhapsody of Blood. In it, players are explorers diving into the depths of a nightmare castle invading our reality, trying to track down and stop its mad regent before they blight the mortal world. I'm up to playtest this as well, dang.
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Dec 30, 2017 07:59
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Ewen Cluney posted:It's called The DnD Zone, and it's very silly and has lots of random tables. It's about ready to start playtesting, and I'm hoping that (1) the conceit of playing gamers playing a game isn't hopelessly confusing in practice and (2) the moves for stuff like arguing with the DM don't make the game unpleasant to play. Hate to be that guy, but are you going to kick start that Dragon World game? Also, this looks loving cool. Covok fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Jan 1, 2018 |
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Dec 31, 2017 18:33
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I arrived at what I consider a finished version of Muscle Wizards, a one-shot PbtA game about being overly-buff spellslingers. It's free to anyone who wants it: http://conjur.es/MuscleWizards.pdf It's meant to be goofy and haphazard, which seems to really work out in my play-tests. I'd love to know what people here think of the "health" system, in particular, though, because it's caught a lot of people by surprise. QuantumNinja fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Dec 31, 2017 |
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Dec 31, 2017 21:47
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Flavivirus posted:Cool stuff, I'll look into posting a recruitment thread. A live game will find errors 30x faster.
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Jan 1, 2018 00:15
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Golden Bee posted:A live game will find errors 30x faster. Yeah, I was planning on doing that too - as well as running an online game in Discord. Good idea/bad idea?
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Jan 1, 2018 00:29
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Flavivirus posted:Yeah, I was planning on doing that too - as well as running an online game in Discord. Good idea/bad idea? Sounds like a plan.
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Jan 1, 2018 01:58
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So it turns out my questions here have unexpected plot threads. Or like, design threads. I want to do a game in which the PCs are ORDERED TO LEAVE THE BRONX but refuse. I was going to run it in straight AW, but in this case, AW has a weird flaw that hearkens back to Brown Box D&D. You know how D&D bases Armor Class almost entirely on what armor you're wearing, so it gets weird if you want to do John Carter or pirates or whatever? AW assumes plenty of big guns and ballistic armor, which makes it a little odd if your aesthetic is like a 70s action movie where the cops are considered heavily armed if they were issued Colt Diamondbacks. I also feel like duking it out with your bare hands should be more meaningful, even if someone's waving a gun in your face. Anyway, Spirit of 77 seemed like the perfect thing. I like everyone about it except what appears to be a gaping hole at the core: It's as if it was built off of Dungeon World rather than Apocalypse World itself. Its stats are transparently STR/CON, DEX, CHA, Sharp, and Weird. Like it calls Dexterity "Hustle" but it is transparently just DEX. It doesn't have any of that crossover between physical and personality characteristics that you see in stats like Hard and Cool. I feel like the game would be better off just using Cool, Hard, Hot, Sharp, and Weird and basically just renaming them where appropriate. I could work with that, but it also has Keep Your Cool, which is exactly like Defy Danger. I don't like Defy Danger because it basically puts me in the role of playing Mother May I with the PCs. If I want to manage everything outside of combat by calling for ability score checks and playing Mother May I, why am I not just playing Rules Cyclopedia D&D? Besides that, the aesthetics and the playbook-equivalents are almost perfect. A long while back, someone was asking where the Bopper fits into the kinds of stories the game is meant to tell--it actually fits snugly into a specific sub-subgenre of action movies from the tail end of the 70s and the early 80s, overlapping The Warriors, Escape from New York, and Mad Max. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 06:09 on Jan 2, 2018 |
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Jan 2, 2018 00:04
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Spirit of 77 has a really great book rules, and if you make soul the defy dangerous it balances it out against the other ones, in my experience. This gives a lot of bonus to glam or rocker backgrounds but its always amazing to see what kind of risks those characters take anyway.
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Jan 2, 2018 05:34
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